R+L=J v.47

[finger]

Hey we were talking about Sanka! It's important to know your enemy!

Seriously though, it's a fare question but not one that has one answer. What kind of relevance are you looking for? For the character of Jon not knowing who his mother is has been very important to his development. In a lot of ways being a bastard has defined him. Jon also has to learn to except it and deal with it, it's part of his growing experience. I know it's been a long time for the fans, but Jon is only 16 and has been on his current journey for 2 years. It has a great deal of importance to his character.

What you really seem to want to know is the future. But ask yourself how would it have read if Howland Reed suddenly shows up and is like Jon your mom is such and such. What wold be his motivation to do such a thing? Or if someone like Mormont or Cersei suddenly new who his parents were and spilled in their POV? It would make no sense and not read well at all.

You have the prophecy or two prophecies actually. Maybe Jon is AA come again or maybe the Prince or maybe neither. But they are relevant and they are options. Maybe Jon is the Heir to the throne, it could be important in getting support, and the man does not have a lot of support. It may be important to the Dragons, he may end up being the last Targaryen alive, he could be a king, he could be the rightful wielder of Dawn. We don't really know. Or at least some of us except the fact that we don't really know, hey maybe it will be a life changing emotional moment, it's kind of a big deal to Jon, I would like him to know even if it does not mean he is this or that. I can't give you a 100% anything, but I can give you options. And you like the rest of unfortunates are going to have to wait for the next book, sucks don't it?

That's very important; having lived as a bastard has shaped Jon.

Compare with spoilt heirs like Joff, or Viserys. They have a cocksure stance like: I'm highest born and you have to obbey me.

Instead, Jon has been dismissed for being a bastard, and he's had to earn every bit of respect.

I don't think he gives a damn for prophecies or rights; he'll earn whis way through.

[finger]

Thanks so much Alia. Yea, like so many of us, I was feeling raw after yesterday's events and I had little tolerance for what I felt at the time was unnecessary nitpicking. I don't feel that way and I apologize for any misunderstandings that this may have caused.

Anyhow, I haven't seen this mentioned in this thread (or the recent previous iterations) but wanted to call attention to the significance in a GoT(Jon I) of Jaime wearing Targaryen colors (red and black) while Jon thinks he looks like a king ([Jaime] is what a king should look like). To me (and others) Jaime-in-Targ-colors conjures up Rhaegar.

A few posters In the Jon Chapter re-read project (come on down!) propose that this Jaime-Rhaegar parallel is intentionally made to support R+L. Consider that Jaime is never again described wearing Targ colors, only Lannister Red or KG white. Couple this fact with that it is Jon (with the mysterious parentage) who notes Jaime's colors and concludes that he is what king should look like. Even Jon's awestruck description of Jaime as he walks into the feast is similar to some of the highly romanticized descriptions of Rhaegar.

Jon: Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak.

Ned: ...the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight.

-- The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House

wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him.

I can't catch the point. They were all impresive knights, as Robert was when young, or Renly, or Barristan,... It's commonplace in chivalry's stories, or in celtic tain. I don't think it has a second hidden sense.

[FittleLinger]

I can't catch the point. They were all impresive knights, as Robert was when young, or Renly, or Barristan,... It's commonplace in chivalry's stories, or in celtic tain. I don't think it has a second hidden sense.

Foreshadwoing... Martin uses it quite often.

[finger]

Well, three of them were at the TOJ, three of them were at the trident with Rhaegar, and Jaime was with Aerys in KL. They ultimately relied on Willem Darry to smuggle out Viserys and Daenerys, which he did. I don't think they knew or had the time to realize what exactly was happening, or they maybe even thought that the missing three (the TOJ ones) were coming to Vis and Dany.

About who reveals R+L - it's either Bran through weirwood magic, or, an interesting point you're making, if Mormont and Glover had reached Howland - they with Robb's will, and him with THE knowledge, it becomes really unpredictable...

Doesn't it sound queer? 3 at the Trident, 3 at the ToJ, and the only youngest of the KG with the king and the royal family.

Otoh, how is it that Rhaella flees, and Elia doesn't? After all, the latter had it much easier; she could go to Spearsun.

From time to time, I come across with some details that leave guessing.

I've checked the story between Rhaegar-Lyanna-Robert. From the very beggining, the first thing we know that Daenerys remembers from her brother R is taht he died fighting for the woman he loved.

Just a few pages ahead, we know from Robert himself that he had vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he'd done to L.

We can take as a fact that R-R didn't fight for the realm, but for Lyanna.

There are symbols in the action. Both Harrenhall and the Trident are central in the Seven Kingdoms. This tragic love story starts in HH and fisnishes in the Trident, with the coda of ToJ and the flowers in Winterfell crypt. Btw, among the things that Ned conceals is that L loved Rhaegar, not Robert. Or does he conceal?

[Ygrain]

Doesn't it sound queer? 3 at the Trident, 3 at the ToJ, and the only youngest of the KG with the king and the royal family.

No. The KG were assigned where they were needed most.

3 at ToJ: no-one else at hand to do the job

3 at Trident: high-risk action

1 at KL: fortress, goldcloaks, knights... rather safe

Otoh, how is it that Rhaella flees, and Elia doesn't? After all, the latter had it much easier; she could go to Spearsun.

Rhaella doesn't fllee, she is oficially evacuated to Dragonstone. Elia with children wanted to go, as well, but Aerys thought that Dorne betrayed him at Trident and forbade her.

[Snark_Tamer]

Fiddlelinger-my impression of Howland isn't the show--I've had it since well before the first Reed appeared on the show. But it's highly possible I bought into a theory presented here and took a quote from a theory as a quote from the book.

As for the R-L-R thing... I suspect Lyanna was PROMISED to Robert, a man Ned thought of as a brother, and a pairing that was 'duty and honor' but Lyanna fell in love. Ned fought with Robert because until he found her with the newborn, he didn't grasp that Lyanna would go against her honor for the sake of love. Perhaps over the years, Ned talked up his sister enough that Robert fell in love from afar and convinced his own father to arrange it. Robert seems very convinced he and Lyanna were to have been married and since Lyanna seems not to have actually reciprocated, an agreement is the only reason I can see for that.

[MtnLion]

Rhaella doesn't fllee, she is oficially evacuated to Dragonstone. Elia with children wanted to go, as well, but Aerys thought that Dorne betrayed him at Trident and forbade her.

Absolutely correct, and that is spelled out in detail in the text. So, I wonder where that trollish question came from.

[MtnLion]

As for the R-L-R thing... I suspect Lyanna was PROMISED to Robert, a man Ned thought of as a brother, and a pairing that was 'duty and honor' but Lyanna fell in love. Ned fought with Robert because until he found her with the newborn, he didn't grasp that Lyanna would go against her honor for the sake of love. Perhaps over the years, Ned talked up his sister enough that Robert fell in love from afar and convinced his own father to arrange it. Robert seems very convinced he and Lyanna were to have been married and since Lyanna seems not to have actually reciprocated, an agreement is the only reason I can see for that.

As I recall the sequence Robert met Lyanna and pursued the betrothal at the Tourney at Harrenhal.

[FittleLinger]

Fiddlelinger-my impression of Howland isn't the show--I've had it since well before the first Reed appeared on the show. But it's highly possible I bought into a theory presented here and took a quote from a theory as a quote from the book.

As for the R-L-R thing... I suspect Lyanna was PROMISED to Robert, a man Ned thought of as a brother, and a pairing that was 'duty and honor' but Lyanna fell in love. Ned fought with Robert because until he found her with the newborn, he didn't grasp that Lyanna would go against her honor for the sake of love. Perhaps over the years, Ned talked up his sister enough that Robert fell in love from afar and convinced his own father to arrange it. Robert seems very convinced he and Lyanna were to have been married and since Lyanna seems not to have actually reciprocated, an agreement is the only reason I can see for that.

Well I don't think we have indications from the book about Howland and greenseeing, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

As for the rebellion - no - ned fought because Aerys killed his brother and father and demanded his head, as well as Robert's and Jon Arryn's. Lyanna was hardly the main reason, especially for Ned. Not that he didn't care, but the rebellion itself was for larger reasons.

[finger]

You're the second person I've seen allude to the fact that Reed knows the Stark boys are alive. What did I miss? How does Reed know this?

I guess it is because he was fighting the ironmen without any fear that they could be helding his chindren as hostages.

But it doesn't answer how.

[UVA]

As for the R-L-R thing... I suspect Lyanna was PROMISED to Robert, a man Ned thought of as a brother, and a pairing that was 'duty and honor' but Lyanna fell in love. Ned fought with Robert because until he found her with the newborn, he didn't grasp that Lyanna would go against her honor for the sake of love. Perhaps over the years, Ned talked up his sister enough that Robert fell in love from afar and convinced his own father to arrange it. Robert seems very convinced he and Lyanna were to have been married and since Lyanna seems not to have actually reciprocated, an agreement is the only reason I can see for that.

Robert wasn't wisful thinking about marrying Lyanna. She was his betrothed (fiance). Robert* and Rickard Stark (Lyanna's father) had an agreement whereby Lyanna would become his wife.

*An aside Robert's father -- Lord Steffan and his wife -- died when Robert was a child

ETA, ninj'd by MtnLion

[finger]

I agree with your conclusion. This would be kind of complicated.

I have always thought that Ned let the rumour go out that Ashara was the mother just in case Jon's eyes turned purple when he got older.

But I sometimes wonder if there might have been two babies. In that case, Ned took the one that looked like him and sent the other one off with Ashara. This would be consistent with the idea that you separate the heirs (as the Reeds did with Bran and Rickon, the Lannisters did with Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen, and Aerys did with Aegon and Viserys -- or, if you like Alfie Allen, there's a Star Wars angle to this).

If this were true it probably would mean Young Griff is the twin.

Or Ashara had her own reason to hide her baby, but I'd rather not start the Ashara argument.

[MtnLion]

I guess it is because he was fighting the ironmen without any fear that they could be helding his chindren as hostages.

But it doesn't answer how.

Perhaps he knew because he did not see his children being held, and was not informed by the Ironmen that they held his children?

[UVA]

Well I don't think we have indications from the book about Howland and greenseeing, someone correct me if I'm wrong

I thought so too. Jojen's greensight comes only after he is sickened by 'greywater fever'. I don't recall any mention about Howland Reed.

[finger]

No. The KG were assigned where they were needed most.

3 at ToJ: no-one else at hand to do the job

3 at Trident: high-risk action

1 at KL: fortress, goldcloaks, knights... rather safe

Rhaella doesn't fllee, she is oficially evacuated to Dragonstone. Elia with children wanted to go, as well, but Aerys thought that Dorne betrayed him at Trident and forbade her.

Maybe, but it's not so usual. For instance, when sent to take Riverrrun, Jaime is the only KG, with a heavy party of armoured men. Other KG are assigned to tasks by their own. I don't know, it doesn't sound me right.

Aerys was f**king mad, absolutely.

[finger]

Absolutely correct, and that is spelled out in detail in the text. So, I wonder where that trollish question came from.

Sorry I don't know the whole five books by heart. I wasn't aware this was an exam.

[Ygrain]

Maybe, but it's not so usual. For instance, when sent to take Riverrrun, Jaime is the only KG, with a heavy party of armoured men. Other KG are assigned to tasks by their own. I don't know, it doesn't sound me right.

Aerys was f**king mad, absolutely.

And where do we have a king/heir to the throne going to battle? Sending three KG to accompany Rhaegar to battle was pretty sensible, IMHO. Even if those three stayed back with Elia, they wouldn't have changed a thing except falling heroically among the piles of dead bodies while Gregor or someone else would still do the job.

In this particular case, Aerys gets the flak unjustly.

[Snark_Tamer]

Sorry I don't know the whole five books by heart. I wasn't aware this was an exam.

Yeah, I get this too. It seems to me there are some who are downright rude if somebody makes a mistake. Treating each other kindly would make these boards more welcoming. There are nice ways to say things and I think we'd all have more fun if we practiced them.

Robert wasn't wisful thinking about marrying Lyanna. She was his betrothed (fiance). Robert* and Rickard Stark (Lyanna's father) had an agreement whereby Lyanna would become his wife.

*An aside Robert's father -- Lord Steffan and his wife -- died when Robert was a child

ETA, ninj'd by MtnLion

Exactly... betrothed... so it was a sense of honor.

As for Robert's rebellion:

Rhaegar abducts Lyanna 1st.

Brandon and Rickard Stark demand Aerys reprimand his son so he kills them 2nd

THEN Robert/Ned go to war.

It is absolutely about Lyanna.

[Ygrain]

Rhaegar abducts Lyanna 1st.

Brandon and Rickard Stark demand Aerys reprimand his son so he kills them 2nd

THEN Robert/Ned go to war.

It is absolutely about Lyanna.

Actually... Brandon doesn't demand any royal reprimand for Rhaegar, he demands that Rhaegar comes out to die, which is an attack at the Crown Prince's life and a capital offence.

Plus, Robert and Ned go to war only after Aerys demands their heads and Jon Arryn rebels and calls his banners. Since that moment, Lyanna no longer matters.

[FittleLinger]

Exactly... betrothed... so it was a sense of honor.

As for Robert's rebellion:

Rhaegar abducts Lyanna 1st.

Brandon and Rickard Stark demand Aerys reprimand his son so he kills them 2nd

THEN Robert/Ned go to war.

It is absolutely about Lyanna.

No, I don't think that's correct. If Aerys hadn't rused Brandon and Rickard, then brutally murdered them and the ordered Jon Arryn the heads of Ned and Robert, the war could have been avoided. The sheer fact that Robert didn't call the banners immediately after Lyanna was kidnapped, shows that this is not the main reason.

The kidnapping was some sort of catalyst, but there is a good chance a war wouldn't have started without Aerys' actions.