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Eddard Stark did not die because he was naive and overly honorable


LightSpectra

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I'm rather tired of hearing this assertion across various threads in this forum. So the story goes: Ned Stark was doubtlessly a good and honorable man, but was too honorable (to the point of naivety) to play the game of thrones, and thus was defeated because of the lack of his political skills.

I could go into a lengthy tirade about all of the flaws in approaching any realistic scenario with Realpolitik, but it's unnecessary.

Eddard was actually a fairly crafty politician, as seen by his actions as Hand. He manipulated the composure of Robert's will in order to oust the Lannisters from the throne, then bought off the goldcloaks to prevent a coup d'etat. These are not the actions of a man "too naive to be a politician". It's in no way a bad plan. The failure was that he trusted Petyr Baelish, but this was on the advice of Catelyn, who was his friend from childhood. Eddard made a calculated risk that Littlefinger would more likely befriend the Starks than the Lannisters, since he knew that Petyr knew that the Starks would not betray an ally, whilst the Lannisters would. Cersei made the same risk, as well. If Petyr had decided to betray her instead, Cersei's entire plan would have been foiled.

While I'm on this subject, can we talk about how bad Cersei's plan was? She has until Robert returns from the hunt before he and Eddard put the Lannisters to the sword for high treason, and her best plan was... to get him drunk and hope the boar fatally wounds him. The fact that this worked out at all is amazing. Also, with the revelation that Jon Arryn was killed by Lysa and not by the Lannister conspiracy makes this whole plot even more contrived. Was Cersei hoping that a hunt was going to kill Robert when Jon finally realized that Joffrey was a bastard, as well?

So basically, Eddard's failing was two things: one, that Cersei's ridiculous plan managed to succeed at all; and two, that Petyr (who, from any perspective beyond his inner thoughts, had more reason to ally with the Starks than the Lannisters) betrayed him and had the goldcloaks side with Cersei and Joffrey. How is this "naivety"? He didn't have a bad plan. There was really no better plan available. He was not held back by his honor and sense of justice.

The one thing (only in retrospect, though) that Eddard could have done instead is cut Littlefinger out of the equation entirely, and use his authority as Hand to replace Janos Slynt with a northman (or at least somebody more trustworthy). I'm not quite sure how that would have gone down, though.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I think his biggest mistake was not accepting Renly's help on the night of Robert's death. He should have known that the Lannisters would strike quickly, but he made the major mistake of not having a backup plan to using the city watch. It's easy, in retrospect, to say 'I would have proclaimed Joffrey's bastardy to the high heavens and distributed the evidence right away.' Losing the initiative was critical for him.

Sending his own men to subdue the Mountain that Rapes was not the big mistake - putting Lord Beric in command was. To be caught from the rear while crossing a river? It sounds like he didn't conduct a proper reconnaissance or have a rearguard for such a dangerous obstacle. I like Beric's character and the legend around him, but I think it's pretty obvious that he was a failure as a tactician...at least before losing his first battle.

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Ned Stark died because a conniving man like LF (if the rumor was true that he whispered to Joff to behead him instead of sending him away to the Wall) wanted him dead. If he remained alive, there won't be much chaos; but if he's dead, the North will remember to make the Lannisters pay their debts. LF has his wicked secret agenda why he wanted the realm to bleed, imo, coz if not, why would he tell Lysa to poison Jon Arryn and send message to Cat saying the Lannisters did it? Obviously, Bob will ask his most beloved Ned to be his Hand, and since the Hand has power, Ned can investigate the fishy death of his foster father and bring to justice whoever has the hand on it. Luckily, Cat came to ask LF who owns the dagger used in the failed murder attempt of Bran. He saying it belonged to Tyrion raised more suspicions of the Starks to the Lannisters. Ned's death was just one fruit of LFs dirty labor - more are sure to come in the upcoming book.

Ned Stark's imprisonment, on the other hand, was his own doing. Long story short, he trusted the man (LF) who he believed was a friend. In addition to that, he acted so slow, he didn't seek alliance from men faithful and loyal to King Bob (if there're any) and surround himself of them, he didn't tell more people about the incest, and he believed Queen Cersei will honor Robert's will naming him "Protector of the Realm" blah-blah-blah. I guess he was naive and too honorable, but what ultimately brought his end was he just being a pawn in the bloody game of thrones (without him knowing).

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Replacing Slynt would have been a great idea, and he had the authority and reason to do it. Slynt was notoriously corrupt. He should also have replaced all the captains of the City Watch who were loyal to Slynt with his own Northerners.

But he didn't really have time as Robert (in the middle of a crisis the whoring sot goes fricking hunting! - what a maroon) got his fatal wound at almost exactly the time Ned found out about the kincest between Cersei and Jaime.

Really if anything Eddard Stark was guilty of felony, bad timing. :o

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I think The Ned was naive.

He might have been doomed regardless of this, it is true.

However, he did have good reasons to distrust LF; reasons LF was actually good enough to spell out for him. The Ned did not take the hint. And really, trusting LF because he swears he'll do anything for your wife because he fought a duel over her (and lost) 15 years ago ... come on Ned. Ned never bothered to try and puzzle out LF's motivations because that is not the way he operates.

He couldn't even bring himself to ask LF to bribe Slynt because he was too honourable. He was certainly constrained by his personality in what he would do to secure allegiance and support.

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I've always had this idea that Ned's downfall all comes down to his driving instinct to protect children. He was more concerned about the well-being of Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen that he handled the situation too meekly & everyone stepped all over him. The significance of this motivation, of course, is that it is rooted in the whole R+L=J / "Promise me, Ned" thing. Both during Ned's warning to Cersei and Renly's offer, he makes a really big deal about not wanting any harm to come to the kids. It's kind of like he's taken his sister's last words, which affected him so much, and applied them not just literally to that specific situation, but also metaphorically to a larger context in life

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I've always had this idea that Ned's downfall all comes down to his driving instinct to protect children. He was more concerned about the well-being of Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen that he handled the situation too meekly & everyone stepped all over him. The significance of this motivation, of course, is that it is rooted in the whole R+L=J / "Promise me, Ned" thing. Both during Ned's warning to Cersei and Renly's offer, he makes a really big deal about not wanting any harm to come to the kids. It's kind of like he's taken his sister's last words, which affected him so much, and applied them not just literally to that specific situation, but also metaphorically to a larger context in life

I think this is more of a general MO for the Starks- the protectors of their family, and the protectors of the vulnerable and weak. It is a characteristic prevalent in Starks both past and present. the R+L=J scenario was just one example of this general attitude.

Other examples:

Rickard and Brandon Stark going to KL to save Lyanna

Brandon doing everything possible to avoid hurting Littefinger when challenged to a duel

Jon protecting Sam and saving him on several occasions at the Wall during training

Arya saving Jaqen H'ghar & co and weasel in the fiery holdfast

Robb waging war to save Ned

Ned ruining his honour to save Sansa

Robb ruining his honour to save Jeyne's

Jon risking his honour to save "Arya" (another Jeyne)

Jon saving Tormunds' wildings

Sansa helping Sweetrobin down from the Eyrie

Sansa saving Ser Dontos Hollard

Jon wanting to save wildlings at Eastwatch

Bran standing up for Hodor when the Freys mock him

Bran talking to Theon via the medium of trees to save him in Winterfell

plus the obvious Ned throwing in his badge of office to save Daenerys and Ned giving Cercei forewarning to save her three children.

For better or worse, this is the Stark way, and I wouldn't necessarily place too much stock on R+L=J being a defining moment and a change in direction for Eddard. the Starks are inherently chivalrous (or at least, the known Starks of the current generation are)

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As much as I like Ned as a character, I have to admit he's completely unfit for power struggles of Handship in viper's nest of King's Landing. From the moment he accpeted the office, he made several crucial mistakes which ultimately resulted in his downfall and execution. And yes, most of these mistakes do come from naivete and honor-over-reason attitide. I'll compare them to actions of Tyrion - much less honourable but more skilled politician and Hand.

Ned: leaves City Watch under corrupt and dubiously loyal Janos Slynt. On a sidenote, if CW were commanded by Jory or any other loyal Northman, Ned would have no need of Littlefinger at all.

Tyrion: immediately puts loyal Bywater in charge of City Watch.

Ned: doesn't form his own power base while in KL.

Tyrion: does so, by hiring mercenaries, bringing Mountin Clans and taking charge of Gold Cloaks.

Ned: refuses Renly's offer of help

Tyrion: while we have no analogy here, no crafty politician would reject Renly's suggestion in given circumstances

Ned: doesn't exercise his powers as King's Hand except for one ocassion when he outlawed Gregor Clegane. Mainly uses his position to advise King Robert and bicker with Small Council.

Tyrion: uses his position to his benefit (in power struggles of KL) and kindgom's benefit (when preparing for siege against Stannis).

Ned: trusts people will behave honourably and respect promises and given words. He warned Cersei of his discovery because he genuinely believed she will run from KL. Likewise, he trusted Robert's will (or "paper shield", as Cersei put it) will be enough to protect him because he believed people will respect it.

Tyrion: has no such illusions about men's scurpules.

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I'm rather tired of hearing this assertion across various threads in this forum. So the story goes: Ned Stark was doubtlessly a good and honorable man, but was too honorable (to the point of naivety) to play the game of thrones, and thus was defeated because of the lack of his political skills.

True. However, this criticism mostly focuses on his warning to Cersei, specifically. That was done for the best of reasons, and actually I for one don't regard it as naivete or lack of political skill - Ned clearly understood that it was a huge risk, but did it anyway because it was the right thing to do. And as you say, he was smart enough to take out insurance against it backfiring. Nevertheless, that's the part that people are actually mostly criticising when they talk about him being 'too honourable'.

Eddard was actually a fairly crafty politician, as seen by his actions as Hand. He manipulated the composure of Robert's will in order to oust the Lannisters from the throne, then bought off the goldcloaks to prevent a coup d'etat. These are not the actions of a man "too naive to be a politician". It's in no way a bad plan. The failure was that he trusted Petyr Baelish, but this was on the advice of Catelyn, who was his friend from childhood.

Well, no, it's not. Cat never explicitly advises Ned to trust Petyr, and certainly not on this issue, when she wasn't there. Ned trusts LF purely because he has no other choice: Ned himself doesn't have the coin, the contacts or the ability to pull off a move like bribing the gold cloaks.

While I'm on this subject, can we talk about how bad Cersei's plan was? She has until Robert returns from the hunt before he and Eddard put the Lannisters to the sword for high treason, and her best plan was... to get him drunk and hope the boar fatally wounds him.

This plan was hatched before she had any idea that Ned was onto her. She gets lucky, yes, but the plan wasn't her last throw, so far as she knew at the time.

So basically, Eddard's failing was two things: one, that Cersei's ridiculous plan managed to succeed at all; and two, that Petyr (who, from any perspective beyond his inner thoughts, had more reason to ally with the Starks than the Lannisters) betrayed him and had the goldcloaks side with Cersei and Joffrey. How is this "naivety"? He didn't have a bad plan. There was really no better plan available. He was not held back by his honor and sense of justice.

But it is is honour and sense of justice that prevents him from agreeing to Renly's plan, and also (as I say) that made him give Cersei a chance to flee.

The one thing (only in retrospect, though) that Eddard could have done instead is cut Littlefinger out of the equation entirely, and use his authority as Hand to replace Janos Slynt with a northman (or at least somebody more trustworthy). I'm not quite sure how that would have gone down, though.

It wouldn't have worked. The gold cloaks would simply not have gone along with it.

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Well, no, it's not. Cat never explicitly advises Ned to trust Petyr, and certainly not on this issue, when she wasn't there. Ned trusts LF purely because he has no other choice: Ned himself doesn't have the coin, the contacts or the ability to pull off a move like bribing the gold cloaks.

While I agree that Ned had no choice than to trust Littlefinger, the latter exploited his past relationship with Cat to introduce himself to Ned as well as steering Ned towards the incest, both to gain some measure of trust and to keep Ned in Kings Landing. Without those I think it is entirely possible that Ned might have skipped town alltogether and not going through with it at all.

But it is is honour and sense of justice that prevents him from agreeing to Renly's plan, and also (as I say) that made him give Cersei a chance to flee.

I think there were concerns of legitimacy concerned as well. This move might have been construed as coup as well and degrade the issue to a squabble between noble houses over who gets to control the under-aged king. Ned tried to establish himself as the lawfull Regent.

It wouldn't have worked. The gold cloaks would simply not have gone along with it.

There have been what? Five changes in the leadership of the goldcloaks during the course of the books? Slynt was replaced by Bywater, who was replaced by Marbrand, then Kettleblack and after him someone else. Tyrion mentions that the goldcloaks would not look well on someone outside their ranks being placed in charge of them, when commenting on Marbrand's appointment. Still we haven't seen any reaction from the goldcloaks. This suggests that replacing Slynt by another goldcloak would be perfectly feasible and even a northman being appointed would not cause insurmountable reactions, at least not from the goldcloaks.

In my view Ned's greatest failure is not in any particular move, most of which were sensible and didn't have many options to beign with, but in his willingness to knowingly play a rigged game and not change the rules or raise the stakes. Such an attitude however would have a very high probablity of hastening and aggravating the conflict he was trying to resolve. In the end Ned, died because he was trying to look out for the kingdom instead of just his own ass.

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  • 2 weeks later...

You can never be responsible for others choices,only yourself so with that i agree with Varys Ned was honorable but he was an honorable fool.

1.Ned was dead the moment he let the wrong people know he knew Joffery was a spawn of incest.He should have kept his mouth shut and come up with a plan.

2. Never trust a man that tells you outright not to trust him the name Little Finger even sounds treacherous,that was his second mistake.

3.Your daughter was willing to lie to side with Joffrery you don't thing that's she'd sing like a bird to Cersie.The girl had to things on her mind; being queen someday and having little blond babies, that was his third mistake telling Sansa that they were leaving.

4. Listening to your wife and leaving WF.

The Ned was dead the moment he said yes to being hand.

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In complete agreement with the OP. Ned just took a calculated risk in order to save the lives of some children, and lost.

The main part of is downfall was Sansa's confession to Cercei.

It's been repeteadly explained that Sansa had nothing to do with Eddard's downfall. The approximate timeline is:

One night in the godswood, Ned tells Cersei that: "When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then"

Three days after:

2:00 AM: A dying Robert is brought to KL. His will is written. Eddard thinks that if Cersei had any sense, she "would take her children and fly before the break of day".

2:30 AM: Renly offers his help to Eddard.

3:00 AM: Eddard talks to Littlefinger. Lord Baelish offers to bribe the City Watch.

5:30 AM: Renly flees KL (one hour before dawn)

6:30 AM: Eddard wakes up.

7:30 AM: Eddard breaks his fast with her daughters. Arya and Sansa are told that they'll leave KL at the first evening tide. They should have everything packed by midday.

8:30 AM: Pycelle tells Eddard about Robert's death (the text specifies it was an hour later). Eddard summons the council "at once". Pycelle, Barristan, Varys and Littlefinger are at his chambers when the "young king" summons to the Throne Room in turn. Eddard is betrayed.

The point is, Sansa told Cersei about his father's plans between 7:30 and 8:30. At that point Cersei already knew (via Eddard himself and via Littlefinger) that Ned would act against in the next hours.

Sending his own men to subdue the Mountain that Rapes was not the big mistake - putting Lord Beric in command was. To be caught from the rear while crossing a river? It sounds like he didn't conduct a proper reconnaissance or have a rearguard for such a dangerous obstacle. I like Beric's character and the legend around him, but I think it's pretty obvious that he was a failure as a tactician...at least before losing his first battle.

I don't know about Beric's commanding abilites, but the truth is that this time probably Eddard should have listened Sansa. If he had sent Loras and Gregor had killed him, the Lannister-Tyrell alliance would never have happened.

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I'm rather tired of hearing this assertion across various threads in this forum. So the story goes: Ned Stark was doubtlessly a good and honorable man, but was too honorable (to the point of naivety) to play the game of thrones, and thus was defeated because of the lack of his political skills.

I also disagree with this notion, but for the opposite reason - namely, that most of Ned's mistakes had nothing to do with honor, just with ineptitude and willful blindness. That is not to say that Ned wasn't a good, honorable and compassionate man for one of his class, just that those qualities weren't the main reason for his fall.

And actually, for all that people tend to claim that Ned was a great Lord for the North, we found out in ADwD that he didn't have a clue about a lot of problematic things that were going on in his own domain either.

Anyway, in Davos we have an example of a honorable and mercyful man, who is far more observant and capable of judging people, understanding their motivations and predicting their actions than Ned.

Humonguous list of Ned's mistakes:

He didn't explain to his daughters that their situation had changed, that their actions would have reprecussions for Stark family as a whole henceforth, and that they had to play nice with the royal family and other nobles at court, when they set out from Winterfell.

In fact, the decision to take children along at all, once he knew that he'd have to investigate the Lannisters, was more than iffy.

Despite having a thorough demonstration at the Ruby Ford that he couldn't rely on Robert's support alone, Ned stubbornly refused to look for allies in KL. In fact, he did what he could to alienate those who were opposed to the Lannisters and wanted to ally with him.

He didn't double-check information re: ownership of the dagger with anybody, even though he distrusted LF and Varys.

He missed Littlefinger betraying his lie about Tyrion and the dagger during the Tourney of the Hand.

As tensions mounted, he didn't caution Sansa.

Once news of Tyrion's capture by Catelyn arrived, Ned refused to explain his case against Tyrion or to obey royal command (!) to release him.

Despite being certain that Cersei ordered/committed several murders, including those of newborn babies, tried to make Robert Arryn her family's hostage and was generally the opposite of honorable, Ned chose to confront her _before_ his children were safely out of KL.

He was later appalled and surprised when well-being of his children was used to blackmail him into confession. I mean, really?

Despite multiple direct warnings by LF himself (!) Ned didn't just expect his help, but demanded that LF destroy everything that he had achieved in life, to enable a cause that LF himself didn't believe in and considered disastrous - namely, enthronement of Stannis.

This goes far beyond what could have been realistically counted on even from a true friend - and Ned disdained and distrusted LF the whole way and didn't bother to hide it. In fact, would Ned himself support a cause, where if he succeded, he'd lose everything that he held dear?

But Ned never thinks beyond the fact that he himself would be glad to lose his court position and go home to his domain and his family. Never considering what it would be like for LF, who had nothing to return to.

Ned thought that Janos Slynt would want to help enthrone a notoriously unforgiving man, who tried to have him _executed for corruption_ not long ago, in exchange for a bit of gold. I mean, seriously.

This has nothing to do with Ned's honor, it is just plain old stupidity and stubborn refusal to think the things through.

And to those who say that Ned should have removed Slynt and replaced him with a northman - Robert (manipulated by LF, no doubt) was the one who insisted on keeping Slynt when Stannis attempted the same, so it was a no-go.

Also, all the subsequent Goldcloak captains until Marbrand were of the City Watch themselves, reasonably popular among the men and knew KL. Marbrand was named once the Lannisters were in KL in force and he is a very charismatic and presumably worldly man, who could be relied on to win his men over.

Now, don't mistake me - I loved Ned as a character, I am just annoyed by the constant refrain that everything bad that happened to him and Robb is the fault of these "stupid females" Cat and Sansa and/or that they were killed because they were too good and honorable to live.

No, they died because they have made a lot of serious mistakes and weren't lucky enough to survive the fallout.

Yes, Ned did handicap himself, somewhat, because of his honor/compassion, but he may have been successful even so, if he had been more capable and less willfully blinkered than he was. If we leave out Varys directly taking him out à la Kevan, that is.

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  • 1 month later...

Simply not true. The key factor was Littlefinger's decision to side with Cersei.

:agree:

In the end Ned's plan was crap and Cersei's plan was crap; both of them were relying on chance

LF decided who was going to win and he picked Cersei, simply because her and Joffrey would wreck chaos on the realm

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LF decided who was going to win and he picked Cersei, simply because her and Joffrey would wreck chaos on the realm

Well, unlike Ned, LF also knew very well that Slynt and Co. wouldn't help to enthrone Stannis, who wanted to take their heads only a few months previously and was notorious for not forgiving crimes even for good turns done to him.

Oh, and LF himself was in a very similar position - as he told Ned!

Not much to decide, was there? As Ned should have realized, as LF practically spelled it all out for him.

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Not strenghting his position in KL as soon as he arrived, specialy after waht happen at Darry, was a gross mistake. Cersei was hostile to him, Robert and Renly undependable, Barristan useless and waht left? Littlefinger, Varys and Pycelle. LF, know for corruption, Varys , know for scheaming and Pycelle, Tywin's flunkie. There wasnt a Northman, Valesman or Riverlander honorable second son to apoint to the City Watch? Calling for more men from RR or Eyrie?

What were Ned's goals as Hand, other then investigate Jon's possible murder?

He was a honorable, goodhearted, idealistic, fool. He really should have not taken a job he wasn't suited for.

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