Vulture interview hints at "controversial" Sansa chapter in TWoW

[~Shiera Seastar~]

She doesn't need to marry Sweet Robin to avoid marrying HtH. She's already married to Tyrion. Baelish can't just blink that away.

What I mean is if she's free to marry again. Littlefinger arranged her betrothal to HtH although she's still married. So, if Littlefinger finds a way to free her from her marriage, the thing I said might or might not happen. It's just crackpotting on what's the "controversial" Sansa chapter is about.

[Tini]

SweetRobin is a minor - she can't marry him without permission of the boy's guardian. I don't think she could pull it off without Littlefinger's help, or that of the Vale lords.

I think she might just betray someone's trust. Not necessarily SweetRobin, possibly Mya Stone or Miranda.

She might betray Ser Shadrich if she realizes that he is/was looking for Sansa. If Ser Shadrich did not come to the Vale looking for Sansa, if he doesn't know who Alayne Stone is, one could argue that it was uncalled for.

[Colonel Green]

She might betray Ser Shadrich if she realizes that he is/was looking for Sansa.

Would that really be controversial? Seems pretty justified on self-preservation grounds, even if he didn't know who she was at the time.

Based on the modification to the original statement about it being controversial, I don't think it's going to be anything remotely as big as we've been speculating here, if only some people "might" find it controversial.

This is probably the chapter that was supposed to be on ADWD originally, I believe, so perhaps, much like Jaime's one chapter in that book, it ends on a cliffhanger.

[~Shiera Seastar~]

SweetRobin is a minor - she can't marry him without permission of the boy's guardian. I don't think she could pull it off without Littlefinger's help, or that of the Vale lords.

Tommen, too, but he married with parental consent. Agree that this plot would be hard to pull off unless Sansa get some help (not from LF). Is it controversial already? :P

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Rapsie posted the following on another thread (PtP). I found the bolded option particularly interesting. Now this is what I call controversial!

LF convincing her that it was her fault her father died by going to Cersei and using her guilt to go along with his plans.

Her killing the Mad Mouse because he finds out who she is.

The hairnet, the mad mouse, the tapestries and HtH all have to play some role in the next book.

Also there is meant to be a new plot line. SR being poisoned is one that has already been set-up. The question is if the controversy is to do with an existing plot line or the new one.

[jons nissa]

Rapsie posted the following on another thread (PtP). I found the bolded option particularly interesting. Now this is what I call controversial!

LF convincing her that it was her fault her father died by going to Cersei and using her guilt to go along with his plans.

littlefinger just being able to convince sansa to admit she complicated things by going to cersei would be controversial. sansa, to date, still doesn't accept blame well. getting her to go along with his plans would be a blow, i agree.

[Arataniello]

Maybe the chapter is from Sansa's PoV, but the 'controversial' nature of it does not relate directly to her.

Maybe - death of Sandor, thus being 'controversial' to all Sansan believers?

[little.bird]

Personally, I think it will be that she finally shows her mettle and that she's learned what needs to be done in order to be a solid player. There are people who will hate to see her redeemed, because everybody has characters that they love to hate no matter what. Despite Jaime's awesomeness, there are still some people who staunchly despise him for banging his sister and trying to kill Bran. For many people he's redeemed himself, but some still love to hate him. I feel like that would especially be the case with Sansa. I find that those who hate her, especially those who just watch the show and don't read the books, far outweigh those who like her. Many people pretty much blame HER solely for Ned's death and the fall of House Stark. People LIKE to blame her for that. I think there are a number of people who would still begrudge her her past and would be unhappy to see her redeeming herself.

Then again, I hope this because I want more people to like her. I like her.

As a sidenote: I'm clearly fairly new here despite stalking the forums a lot. What are lemoncakes fans?

[JLE]

Actually. Sansa's marriage to Tyrion would be no impediment and could be easily set aside: since it was common knowledge at court, and thus all over King's Landing, that the couple slept separately. Especially if Sansa allowed herself to be examined, and passed whatever passes for a virginity test, and can prove she is still "a maid intact". Adding the story that Tyrion preferred her handmaid, a whore, to Sansa herself (which from a certain point of view is entirely true - although it could be said he would rather have had Sansa, but had enough principle not to take her against her will) would only make it more believable, since Tyrion is already known (and disgraced) for whoring.

An annulment on grounds of non-consummation would be pretty much standard practice, and would not be difficult to get: the only question would be who would actually give the decree of annulment (and thus, give away that Sansa was in his town, with the risk that Kings Landing would suddenly send forces to recapture her, possibly even threatening to level the town to do so. Although Sansa would give herself up if that was the alternative.)

Hm, come to think of it, that gets Sansa back to King's Landing and on trial, knowing she will get an unfair one, and having only one option that might save her...

[Colonel Green]

Hm, come to think of it, that gets Sansa back to King's Landing and on trial, knowing she will get an unfair one, and having only one option that might save her...

I don't think Sansa's going anywhere near King's Landing for the foreseeable future, unless she's going there with an army. Her parts of book four were all about setting up the complicated political situation in the Vale, and the Vale is going to be the last of the seven kingdoms to enter the war, one way or another

Annulments are given by the high septon, similar to those granted by the pope in Medieval Europe.

[JLE]

You say "unless she's going there with an army".

I agree, although the army may not necessarily be her own if she is taken captive...

Besides, where does it state that it has to be the High Septon that grants an annulment? I believe technically in the Middle Ages it didn't *have* to be the Pope, except that if it was granted by a lower rank in the hierarchy, there was a danger that they would be overruled on appeal to a higher religious authority if such an appeal was made. Which is why in practice, unless it was absolutely obvious (e.g. Henry IV and Anne of Cleves, whose annulment had no questions from any religious authority, no matter that Henry technically *was* the religious authority, he asked the highest authority in the realm that wasn't himself, i.e. the Archbishop of Canterbury, but it was a formality anyway), royalty would generally go to the Pope to confirm an annulment - not because he was the only one that could do it, but because he had no higher earthly authority to overrule him.

Ordinary folks, or even lower degrees of nobleman, would not necessarily go all the way to the Pope unless people kept on appealing to higher and ever-higher authorities. (Example, in the mid-1800s - not Middle Ages, but the Catholic Church hadn't really changed much: Pianist and composer Franz Liszt, and his lover Princess Carolyne Sayn-Wittgenstein, wanted her previous marriage annulled on grounds of non-consummation, and certain religious authorities in the nation - bishops at a national level - might have been willing to grant it but were overruled on her husband's appeal to a higher authority, Liszt and Carolyne counter-appealed to an even higher one, and the case got all the way to the Pope that way, and *he* intially ruled in their favour but changed his mind overnight - but either side could have stopped at an earlier point in the hierarchy. But at least their journey to the Vatican inspired some of the man's greatest music.)

I don't believe there would be any controversy in Sansa being granted an annulment by a lower-ranking septon - e.g. the most senior septon that could be found in the Vale lands, for example. The High Septon would be unlikely to overrule - and Cersei unlikely to appeal, and Tyrion absent - especially if Sansa were found, by independent examination, to be "a maid intact", especially given what was already known about (1) their marriage and (2) Tyrion's habits.

[Colonel Green]

I agree, although the army may not necessarily be her own if she is taken captive...

How would that happen, exactly? At this point, there's no way the Lannister-Tyrell regime has the force to invade the Vale (which is supposed to be impossible by land anyway), even if they somehow found out about it.

Besides, where does it state that it has to be the High Septon that grants an annulment?

Martin himself said that, I thought.

[jons nissa]

Besides, where does it state that it has to be the High Septon that grants an annulment? I believe technically in the Middle Ages it didn't *have* to be the Pope, except that if it was granted by a lower rank in the hierarchy, there was a danger that they would be overruled on appeal to a higher religious authority if such an appeal was made.

I don't believe there would be any controversy in Sansa being granted an annulment by a lower-ranking septon - e.g. the most senior septon that could be found in the Vale lands, for example.

uh, marriage in medieval times most definitely had to be annulled by a pope. it is precisely the pope exercising this power that caused so much grief for king henry viii.

in westeros, marriages can only be annulled by the high septon. just like bastards can only be legitimized by the king. doesn't matter how much the father recognizes the child, it must be the king. likewise, no other septon would dare to annul a marriage. they don't have the authority.

Martin himself said that, I thought.

yes martin says and it is stated in the text.

[lysmonger]

As with all interviews, sometimes bits get cut to tighten it up... I'm pretty sure what I said was that I thought the chapter might be controversial in some quarters of the fandom. I guess that means it could well be controversial. But, who knows, my assessment might be wrong.

its pretty obvious whats going to be controversial. Sansa is bed maits with Myranda Royce. Myranda Royce is going to reveal Sansa when she sees the mismatch in pubic in the hair down below. AS we all know, if you have legimate red hair, you have red hair down below. Very diligent thinking from Myranda's part.

[Black Wolf Smith]

My wild ass guess is "Alayne" and Mya hook up.

[lysmonger]

My wild ass guess is "Alayne" and Mya hook up.

littlefinger is then spying on them through a peep hole

[MrsClegane]

"I have loved only one man. Only the Hound"

*LF flies through the Moon Door*

:drool:

[Sidonie]

Maybe the Hound does show up in the Vale, and this threatens all the plans LF and Sansa made.

Since Sansa is the only one the Hound would trust, she gets him to eat her poisoned lemoncakes, which kills him.

I think this would be very controversial for the readers, since half of us were hoping to see the Hound and Sansa live happily ever after,

[Kittykatknits]

As a sidenote: I'm clearly fairly new here despite stalking the forums a lot. What are lemoncakes fans?

Lemoncake is a nickname sometimes given to Sansa. So, lemoncake fans are Sansa fans.

[Stark@heart]

Well Sansa is already married and her husband is not dead.Maybe her marriage takes place.Also LF molesting her is a strong possiblity.

I thinking something like LF molesting her and we see Alyanna going along with it, for a while anyway. That would be way controversial.

I've always thought Sansa would either end up with LF or kill him. If she stays Alyanna, then she stays Petyr's plaything. I'm hoping it doesn't go farther than the groping she's getting now and going along with but I think it will take "more" to make her snap and be Sansa again. Then she kills him. I've just always wanted it to be Sansa who put a knife to his throat, as payback for Ned and the trouble she started. She got her chance to tell the truth about Joffery when it mattered, now she needs to spill LFs secrets and be the death of him.

Then she'll have come full circle as far as storyline and hopefully get to start her song over as Sansa of House Stark, The Queen of the North and Winter? Something cool like that, she's come to far and annoyed me too much not to come through in the end as what I consider a "true" Stark.

She's already knowingly helping to off Sweet Robin so I don't think anyone would be shocked if she was shown to help kill him unless she shoves him out the Moon Door, lol