Ice and Fire animal project: Wolves

[Manderlay]

As for as I know there isn't much on wolves in Hindu mythology apart from saying they have strong stomach's Bhima is called Vrikodara several times in the Mahabharata.

Yes in Hindu mythology wolves are only occasionally mentioned, I am still doing some research on it, but the purpose is to show how wolves have been portrayed in different cultures.

[Mladen]

Yes in Hindu mythology wolves are only occasionally mentioned, I am still doing some research on it, but the purpose is to show how wolves have been portrayed in different cultures.

Well, I firmly believe that quality should be over quantity. And that`s why I asked you to join us in this.

[Morienthar]

Yes in Hindu mythology wolves are only occasionally mentioned, I am still doing some research on it, but the purpose is to show how wolves have been portrayed in different cultures.

I did some research,Which loosely translated means asked my Grandmother. I came up with a couple more.

1.The 100 wolves made from the hairs of Krishna,to scare people into leaving Braj and move to Vrindavan.

2.Wolf is one of the mounts of Gauri.

3.It's also apparently used as mounts of Asuras.

[Manderlay]

I did some research,Which loosely translated means asked my Grandmother. I came up with a couple more.

1.The 100 wolves made from the hairs of Krishna,to scare people into leaving Braj and move to Vrindavan.

2.Wolf is one of the mounts of Gauri.

3.It's also apparently used as mounts of Asuras.

yup I have come across them as well, thanks, and I envy you, I wish my grandma was here, she lives in another city, grandmas are excellent source of information.

[Mladen]

I did some research,Which loosely translated means asked my Grandmother. I came up with a couple more.

1.The 100 wolves made from the hairs of Krishna,to scare people into leaving Braj and move to Vrindavan.

2.Wolf is one of the mounts of Gauri.

3.It's also apparently used as mounts of Asuras.

yup I have come across them as well, thanks, and I envy you, I wish my grandma was here, she lives in another city, grandmas are excellent source of information.

If you want, you two could work together... Or Morienthar, there are still free essays so, if you think you could be good at something, please PM me, and we`ll give you something to work on.

[Morienthar]

If you want, you two could work together... Or Morienthar, there are still free essays so, if you think you could be good at something, please PM me, and we`ll give you something to work on.

No...Thank You,The only reason I knew about those things was they were some of the stories I grew up with....I wouldn't be good at much else and also with my new semester starting up,I won't as active as I am now.

[butterbumps!]

I know Mladen is going to create an adjacent Lions project. In light of this, I thought the following might be of interest:

There's a metal called "wolf's metal" (it derives from an element, I forget which). It's used to purify gold. In Alchemy, this "lupus metallorum" was understood such that the wolf "consumes" the lion (gold) in order to "redeem" it.

I wonder if this symbolic association is something Martin had in mind when developing the Lannister-Stark dynamic. It does seem (superficially, of course) that the "good" but "less cultured" Starks are set in opposition to the "bad" but "refined" Lannisters. I could see the potential for the wolf to "consume" certain lions, resulting in a kind of redemption for the Lannisters in question: Jon-Tyrion, Sansa-Tyrion, Sansa/ Arya- Jaime (as a side note, I would even argue Catelyn set Jaime's redemption in motion when she freed him).

It may be too removed from the world of ASOIAF to really foretell too much, but I think the Alchemic articulation offers an interesting way of talking about the potential wolf-lion dynamic.

[Mladen]

I know Mladen is going to create an adjacent Lions project. In light of this, I thought the following might be of interest:

There's a metal called "wolf's metal" (it derives from an element, I forget which). It's used to purify gold. In Alchemy, this "lupus metallorum" was understood such that the wolf "consumes" the lion (gold) in order to "redeem" it.

I wonder if this symbolic association is something Martin had in mind when developing the Lannister-Stark dynamic. It does seem (superficially, of course) that the "good" but "less cultured" Starks are set in opposition to the "bad" but "refined" Lannisters. I could see the potential for the wolf to "consume" certain lions, resulting in a kind of redemption for the Lannisters in question: Jon-Tyrion, Sansa-Tyrion, Sansa/ Arya- Jaime (as a side note, I would even argue Catelyn set Jaime's redemption in motion when she freed him).

It may be too removed from the world of ASOIAF to really foretell too much, but I think the Alchemic articulation offers an interesting way of talking about the potential wolf-lion dynamic.

Ok, Butterbumps, I find it.

Lupus metallorum = The grey wolf or stibnite, used to purify gold, as the sulphur in the antimony sulphide bonds to the metals alloyed with the gold, and these form a slag which can be removed. The gold remains dissolved in the metallic antimony which can be boiled off to leave the purified gold.

I have to admit that this is one of those scientific facts that works perfectly in litearture. I am also amazed that you have found it and even more for the wonderful connection you made. I have to say, I am indeed impressed. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

As for wolves purifying lions, it`s wonderful how it works in ASOIAF. I will foucs on another redemption. Remember how Cersei during her penance walk remembers Ned and how she thinks it would all have been different if she could have done that day. Basically, the signs of remorse are connected with that particular memory.

As for Alchemy, I believe we should be more interested in it. Perhaps it doesn`t appear in ASOIAF, but Martin excells when parallels and motifs are in question. Who knows how many things he had taken from Alchemy that we are not aware of.

Again, butterbumps!, excellent job for finding this

[Mladen]

For all of you who are waithing for Ice and Fire Animal Project: Lions. I am so sorry for delay, and I hope I`ll be done in a day or two when the first essay shall be posted. Thanks for your interest and support.

[Alia of the knife]

Looking forward to it.

(I thought of that passage on female wolves showing their obstinacy in not wishing to mate when watching last nights episode with the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion). :cool4:

It completely put her behavior in a new light, taking it from being just a matter of conscious rudeness to the instinctual.

[ARYa_Nym]

A bit of a problem assigning wolf hierarchy roles to the girls.

In the Wolf`s Psychology and Behavior part of the essay, alfa female is defined as follows:

Alpha female is chosen among female wolves by alpha male during mating period.

In Winterfell they were both pups. Since then, they grow up separated and none of them is part of a wolf pack to assume a role.

Their roles in Winterfell are assigned to them by more "human" and less "wolfish" criteria. By those, Sansa fits the alfa but Arya is more of the "lone wolf", as she neither accepts the beta role, nor tries to challenge the alfa (I could never immagine her trying to "seduce" Joffrey!!! :) )

Nymeria, mirroring Arya, has challenged for, and taken, the alfa male role in her pack.

Nymeria may have been a natural alpha female since Lady was smaller than her. However, as you said Nymeria is acting not as an alpha female but an alpha male. She kills male wolves who try to mate with her so they can become the alpha male.

At WF, Arya may have been pushed into a beta role through family dynamics but it's something she never wanted. Out on her own she can be in charge. She tried to take that alpha role will Gendry and Hot Pie.

It would be interesting for Nymeria because right now she has all the power but if she went back to her original family of direwolves the power dynamic would change. She can't act as an alpha male which is what she seems to like doing.

Another comparison I recently noticed is that when Arya contemplated killing Gendry and Hot Pie and in Gendry's case opted not to because she couldn't get away with it she was like Nymeria who will kill those in her pack that she is displeased with. Nymeria killing those who try to mate with her is something Arya would do.

The Stark kids all longed for packs of their own. Arya had Hot Pie and Gendry;

In other words, because of the way the Stark kids were put in the situations they are now they are not so much lone wolves as they are isolated wolves.

Another point is that Arya realized that Gendry and Hot Pie weren't her real pack.

"It was her own fault, for taking Gendry and Hot Pie with her when she left Harrenhal. She would have been better alone. If she had been alone, the oulaws would have never caught her….They were never my pack. If they had been, they wouldn’t have left me. "

She includes the BWB and the Hound as not being part of her pack.

"Beric would find her there. Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs. But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream. Hot Pie and Gendry had left her just as soon as they could, and Lord Beric and the outlaws only wanted to ransom her, just like the Hound, None of them wanted her around. They were never my pack, not even Hot Pie and Gendry. I was stupid to think so, just a stupid little girl, and no wolf at all. "

I would not say that she was wrong because they slowed her down and she got captured more than once because of them.

By AFFC she is using cats who are very independent creatures and the connection is supposed to influence the warg according to the prologue.

That night she dreamed she was a wolf again, but it was different from the other dreams. In this dream she had no pack. She prowled alone, bounding over rooftops and padding silently beside the banks of a canal, stalking shadows through the fog.

I thought that Arya was like Rodrik Stark the Wandering Wolf who may have been another lone wolf. He left and joined an organization in Essos only it was the Second Sons not the FM.

Excellent post, enjoyed reading it :)

Liked that first line in the quote, I always thought that Eddard's advice to Arya was foreshadowing, I am very bad at foreshadowing but I didn't miss this one when I read it "When winter comes the lone wolf dies but the pack survives" and it fits Arya more so because she in fact is a lone wolf more so than her siblings who are scattered.

Yes, the starks are not capable of cruelty like we have seen from other houses, interestingly which stark sibling will make the first move, my bet would be Sansa, I think we are going to see her become a true alpha and Arya will be the first to unite with her sister, despite the contrast between the two sisters and their differences, we have seen that they still think of each other. The she wolves will strike first, whereas the alpha male Jon will strike in the north.

Arya already called herself a lone wolf but that is before winter.

A long time ago, she remembered her father saying that when the cold winds blow the lone wolf dies and the pack survives. He had it all backwards. Arya, the lone wolf, still lived, but the wolves of the pack had been taken and slain and skinned.

I don't think any Starks who have already died can apply since they did not die in the winter. Of the previous generation it was explored in another thread that it's possible that Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna all died during the winter since there had been a false spring previously but it depends on how long winter lasted.

[Manderlay]

Nymeria may have been a natural alpha female since Lady was smaller than her. However, as you said Nymeria is acting not as an alpha female but an alpha male. She kills male wolves who try to mate with her so they can become the alpha male.

At WF, Arya may have been pushed into a beta role through family dynamics but it's something she never wanted. Out on her own she can be in charge. She tried to take that alpha role will Gendry and Hot Pie.

It would be interesting for Nymeria because right now she has all the power but if she went back to her original family of direwolves the power dynamic would change. She can't act as an alpha male which is what she seems to like doing.

Another comparison I recently noticed is that when Arya contemplated killing Gendry and Hot Pie and in Gendry's case opted not to because she couldn't get away with it she was like Nymeria who will kill those in her pack that she is displeased with. Nymeria killing those who try to mate with her is something Arya would do.

Interesting what you said, however I disagree that Arya tried to take the Alpha role with Gendry and Hotpie, she does actually take the role of Alpha, Gendry raises concerns yes, but he did follow her and so did Hotpie, that itself is an Alpha trait, Gendry did get the swords and woke Hotpie and did as he was told, Arya doesn't yield to Gendry's advice. Gendry and Hotpie even if they are not sure about Arya's plans do follow her.

Regarding Arya Contemplating killing Gendry and Hotpie, I did not get your point and comparison with Nymeria killing any wolves that try to mate with her, as far as Arya is concerned Gendry is a friend nothing more. Arya opted not to kill Gendry because he was her friend as well, and she thinks of them as her pack as well in absence of her true pack, however I will agree with you that Arya knows they are not her true pack, but she does consider them as her friends.

I think Arya considers killing them because Yoren had warned her that anyone among their party would sell her to the Lannisters if they found out who she was, also Arya has a certain dark quality to her, I don't know what to call it exactly but she is obsessed with killing and learning how to be efficient at it because she is full of anger and wants vengeance for her father's death. I think when she contemplates killing Gendry it was just that (Yoren's warning and Arya all the time thinking of killing someone if they would try to harm her or betray her secret in Gendry's case), but she also realizes that Hotpie and Gendry are her friends. It wasn't just because she couldn't get away with it, also she refuses to leave Hotpie, Lommy and Weasel when Gendry suggested it.

Arya already called herself a lone wolf but that is before winter.

I don't think any Starks who have already died can apply since they did not die in the winter. Of the previous generation it was explored in another thread that it's possible that Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna all died during the winter since there had been a false spring previously but it depends on how long winter lasted.

Yes, you are right about starks dying in summer, my point was that the stark siblings will reunite in the end and be a pack again, I know Arya is a lone wolf right now but by definition of lone wolf as Winterfellian said it a wolf that seeks solitude and isolation, however Arya does display the traits of lone wolf but it is more out of circumstances than her actual desire, she longs to go home, and we see that throughout story, all stark siblings think of each other, they all are scattered and alone now because of circumstances and not their own desires. The meaning I took from Eddard's advice to Arya was that they have to reunite if they want to be strong, I didn't take the literal meaning of summer and winter but the metaphorical part, winter represents harsh times as the starks have already learned that and it has come for them much sooner, and for the starks to be strong again they have to reunite and be a pack again as Ned suggested, we in fact see that all the stark siblings want to reunite but are separated because of their circumstances.

[ARYa_Nym]

Interesting what you said, however I disagree that Arya tried to take the Alpha role with Gendry and Hotpie, she does actually take the role of Alpha, Gendry raises concerns yes, but he did follow her and so did Hotpie, that itself is an Alpha trait, Gendry did get the swords and woke Hotpie and did as he was told, Arya doesn't yield to Gendry's advice. Gendry and Hotpie even if they are not sure about Arya's plans do follow her.

I said tried because in the end she did not consider them her pack. They were not loyal.

Regarding Arya Contemplating killing Gendry and Hotpie, I did not get your point and comparison with Nymeria killing any wolves that try to mate with her, as far as Arya is concerned Gendry is a friend nothing more. Arya opted not to kill Gendry because he was her friend as well, and she thinks of them as her pack as well in absence of her true pack, however I will agree with you that Arya knows they are not her true pack, but she does consider them as her friends.

I think Arya considers killing them because Yoren had warned her that anyone among their party would sell her to the Lannisters if they found out who she was, also Arya has a certain dark quality to her, I don't know what to call it exactly but she is obsessed with killing and learning how to be efficient at it because she is full of anger and wants vengeance for her father's death. I think when she contemplates killing Gendry it was just that, but she also realizes that Hotpie and Gendry are her friends. It wasn't just because she couldn't get away with it, also she refuses to leave Hotpie, Lommy and Weasel when Gendry suggested it.

Nymeria has killed those within her pack and Arya is certainly capable of it like her wolf. Arya doesn't only kill out of anger or vengeance but out of self preservation and also if someone is in the way of her goals.

As for Gendry in particular there is a scene where he tries to dominate her but she rejects him. She does not kill him like Nymeria but she has contemplated killing him in the past. I think there weren't mating but scenes like Acorn Hall were supposed to play with what if.

In general killing is something I could see her doing towards unwanted advances but so far men haven't gone beyond words.

Yes, you are right about starks dying in summer, my point was that the stark siblings will reunite in the end and be a pack again, I know Arya is a lone wolf right now but by definition of lone wolf as Winterfellian said it a wolf that seeks solitude and isolation, however Arya does display the traits of lone wolf but it is more out of circumstances than her actual desire, she longs to go home, and we see that throughout story, all stark siblings think of each other, they all are scattered and alone now because of circumstances and not their own desires. The meaning I took from Eddard's advice to Arya was that they have to reunite if they want to be strong, I didn't take the literal meaning of summer and winter but the metaphorical part, winter represents harsh times as the starks have already learned that, and for the starks to be strong again they have to reunite and be a pack again as Ned suggested, we in fact see that all the stark siblings want to reunite but are separated because of their circumstances.

She does show a desire to be alone after she becomes disillusioned with her pack of Gendry and Hot Pie. She starts to shift her views.

I think Ned was saying that they need to be together during the winter but the lone wolf speech was about a wolf who is alone during that time and dies. So I think as of yet in the story it's not applicable.

[Manderlay]

I said tried because in the end she did not consider them her pack. They were not loyal.

Perhaps, but that happens after the BwB come into play, before they meet Tom, Lem and Anguy, Arya was their leader.

Nymeria has killed those within her pack and Arya is certainly capable of it like her wolf. Arya doesn't only kill out of anger or vengeance but out of self preservation and also if someone is in the way of her goals.

Yup, I did edit my post and added this (Yoren's warning and Arya all the time thinking of killing someone if they would try to harm her or betray her secret in Gendry's case). I didn't mean she would do it out of anger and vengeance, that was the reason of Arya being obsessed with killing, sorry I didn't make it clear in my original post, what I mean by that is whenever Arya is confronted by a situation in which she might be in danger the first thought that comes to her is killing that person, almost like a force of habit, as I said she is obsessed with killing and learning new ways to be efficient, however Arya does trust Gendry with her secret and tells him that she is a Stark of Winterfell. She reasons that Gendry is her friend and can trust him with her secret. However now that In think on it, I would agree that Arya is capable of killing them, but it would have been so in case Gendry betrayed her.

She does show a desire to be alone after she becomes disillusioned with her pack of Gendry and Hot Pie. She starts to shift her views.

She shows her desire to be away from Gendry and Hotpie after she feels they have abandoned her, Gendry decides to stay with BwB and Hotpie stays at the Inn to bake breads, however she still shows her desire to return home and to be with her true pack, to go to her mother and brother Robb. By now she has learned that her brothers are dead, but there are several times she thinks of her sister Sansa, when she goes to Braavos that is because she thinks her pack is dead, everyone except Sansa. She thinks she has no pack and no home to go to at that time.

[ARYa_Nym]

Perhaps, but that happens after the BwB come into play, before they meet Tom, Lem and Anguy, Arya was their leader.

Yup, I did edit my post and added this (Yoren's warning and Arya all the time thinking of killing someone if they would try to harm her or betray her secret in Gendry's case). I didn't mean she would do it out of anger and vengeance, that was the reason of Arya being obsessed with killing, sorry I didn't make it clear in my original post, what I mean by that is whenever Arya is confronted by a situation in which she might be in danger the first thought that comes to her is killing that person, almost like a force of habit, as I said she is obsessed with killing and learning new ways to be efficient, however Arya does trust Gendry with her secret and tells him that she is a Stark of Winterfell. She reasons that Gendry is her friend and can trust him with her secret. However now that In think on it, I would agree that Arya is capable of killing them, but it would have been so in case Gendry betrayed her.

She realized that they were never really her pack though. They didn't really want to be led by her or stay with her.

It was discussed in another thread but she actually maps it out in her mind if she could get away with it. The conclusion was no then she opted not to.

I think we agree on a basic sense that if she had the motive she would do it.

She shows her desire to be away from Gendry and Hotpie after she feels they have abandoned her, Gendry decides to stay with BwB and Hotpie stays at the Inn to bake breads, however she still shows her desire to return home and to be with her true pack, to go to her mother and brother Robb. By now she has learned that her brothers are dead, but there are several times she thinks of her sister Sansa, when she goes to Braavos that is because she thinks her pack is dead, everyone except Sansa. She thinks she has no pack and no home to go to at that time.

I think them abandoning her was the beginning of the shift and then the RW made it worse. She started to embrace being on her own so I think skinchanging into cats was an appropriate transition for her.

In ADWD she said all of them were dead even Arya except Jon but even he wouldn't know her now.

ETA: I actually hadn't planned on discussing anything. I was just dropping quotes that I thought were relevant.

.

[Mladen]

OK, as promised Ice and fire animal project II: Lions has been opened and I expect to hear your opinion about it.

And, as for ARYa_Nym and Manderlay`s brief discussion:

I think you both have good points, especially ARYa_Nym when she describes Nymeria as classical alpha male rather than alpha female. I wonder what type of female would Nymeria be.

Another point is that Arya realized that Gendry and Hot Pie weren't her real pack.

She includes the BWB and the Hound as not being part of her pack.

But also as much as she doesn`t want to admit herself, especially in the Gendry and HotPie case, they do become in a way, some sort of transitional pack. A pack that is like a substitute for the pack she already has. Just like Bran has Hodor/Reeds, or Jon with his NW brothers, Sansa with Tyrell ladies, Arya tends to become part of something bigger, but she gets isolated from them on a deep level, knowing they are not her pack.

The meaning I took from Eddard's advice to Arya was that they have to reunite if they want to be strong, I didn't take the literal meaning of summer and winter but the metaphorical part, winter represents harsh times as the starks have already learned that and it has come for them much sooner, and for the starks to be strong again they have to reunite and be a pack again as Ned suggested, we in fact see that all the stark siblings want to reunite but are separated because of their circumstances.

After reading entire ASOIAF, I see two sides of that story. Ned is right, given where his children are now - Sansa is a bastard at Eyrie, Rickon possible cannibal, Arya a FM, Jon `dead`, Bran with 3EC. So, they died in a way. But, also they can rise again. Like that Greyjoy line `what is dead may never die, only rises harder and stronger`. So, basically, no matter how hard the situation is, Starks endure even the harshest winter, even the separation. So, I think Ned hit the point in one way but completely missed in another.

[ARYa_Nym]

But also as much as she doesn`t want to admit herself, especially in the Gendry and HotPie case, they do become in a way, some sort of transitional pack. A pack that is like a substitute for the pack she already has. Just like Bran has Hodor/Reeds, or Jon with his NW brothers, Sansa with Tyrell ladies, Arya tends to become part of something bigger, but she gets isolated from them on a deep level, knowing they are not her pack.

I think it was one of those situations where she may have initially thought she was in a pack but it turns out she was the only one in the group that felt that way. Its's like in the show when Arya tells Gendry that she can be his family and he essentially tells her no. She would just be another person giving him orders and he'd rather stay right where he is than go/be with her.

I don't think Gendry in particular has a pack mentality anyways since he already wanted to leave them behind. He wanted Arya around for survival's sake but once he got in a secure place he didn't have a need to be with her anymore.

[Mladen]

I think it was one of those situations where she may have initially thought she was in a pack but it turns out she was the only one in the group that felt that way. Its's like in the show when Arya tells Gendry that she can be his family and he essentially tells her no. She would just be another person giving him orders and he'd rather stay right where he is than go/be with her.

I don't think Gendry in particular has a pack mentality anyways since he already wanted to leave them behind. He wanted Arya around for survival's sake but once he got in a secure place he didn't have a need to be with her anymore.

:agree: . And that scene in the show was particularly sad.

With Arya we have this tendency of creating a pack, but she, as you said, also awakes quickly, and realizes how that pack is poor substitite for her family. And the moment she realizes it, she gets hurt. She was hurt when she realized she is just captive, or when they abandoned her. Arya gets emotionally involved with members of new pack, considering them as family, until they show her they are not. Then, she, just like Sansa, only in different way, learns that you can have only one pack, and that they are the only ones that will care for you. And that`s where both of the girls realize how futile their search for the new pack is. Sansa bitterly understood at her wedding that Tyrell women were not her friends, as Arya understood Brotherhood and Gendry and others will never be her pack.

[ARYa_Nym]

:agree: . And that scene in the show was particularly sad.

With Arya we have this tendency of creating a pack, but she, as you said, also awakes quickly, and realizes how that pack is poor substitite for her family. And the moment she realizes it, she gets hurt. She was hurt when she realized she is just captive, or when they abandoned her. Arya gets emotionally involved with members of new pack, considering them as family, until they show her they are not. Then, she, just like Sansa, only in different way, learns that you can have only one pack, and that they are the only ones that will care for you. And that`s where both of the girls realize how futile their search for the new pack is. Sansa bitterly understood at her wedding that Tyrell women were not her friends, as Arya understood Brotherhood and Gendry and others will never be her pack.

Yes.

Wolves out on their own can make new packs though. Arya eventually would have been expected to leave and make a pack of her own had she stayed at WinterFell.Ned explained this to her. Gendry and Hot Pie though did not want to be her new pack. A wolf pack is essentially a family unit and they did not want or have that relationship dynamic with her.

[Mladen]

Wolves out on their own can make new packs though. Arya eventually would have been expected to leave and make a pack of her own had she stayed at WinterFell.Ned explained this to her. Gendry and Hot Pie though did not want to be her new pack. A wolf pack is essentially a family unit and they did not want or have that relationship dynamic with her.

But, now, after everything, I wonder is Arya capable of making her own pack again? Is she just stuck with her family, unable to progress like others? Sansa has the chance to marry, Bran have CotF, Jon the NW, and Arya will have just them. She couldn`t develop that family dynmic with gendry, HotPie, Brotherhood, I imagine she wouldn`t be able to develop it too with FM. At the end, Arya will remain bound to her family, like none of them is. And that`s why GRRM left Needle in her possession and gave her wolf dreams so far from home, in place without Godswood. It`s like telling us that no matter where she goes, her family is with her.