AFFC/ADWD Hate?

[Lord of Long Lake]

I was recently reading a number of threads in regards to disliking affc/adwd. Many feel the books began to drag and get dull, due to the pacing, and they hated certain POVs.

I can't understand this!

The length of Martin's books has never bothered me. For me, the amount of detail that goes into the descriptions/side issues is a great part of the books as it helps immerse me in the world. If it was up to me, I wish nothing was cut out and the books were huge.

I also can't understand the hate towards certain POVs to the point where people groan when they get to a certain character, or just skip over that chapter entirely. For me, to love asoiaf is to love the whole package. Whether it be Starks, Lannisters, or the Dornish, I can't get enough of them. So much of the reviews of the last 2 books have been focusing on the negatives. What about the positives? How about all the new amazing characters, major or minor, the reintroduction of Theon, Daenerys and Drogon, and the myriad of other fantastic things.

Does anyone else share my view?

[danm_999]

The narrative pacing for the last two books is off I think. When you re-read ACoK and ASoS you notice how well paced and plotted these books are while AFFC/ADWD aren't. That said, it's not like Martin isn't aware of this problem, and a lot of it's to do with the Meereenese knot and the elimination of the five year leap, so it looks to be a problem that'll hopefully resolve itself in the next two books.

That said, I agree with you some of the stuff introduced in the last two books is the best written stuff the series has done yet. Davos' chapter confronting the Manderly's and the Frey's in the Merman's court? Probably my favourite chapter in the series. Theon's arc in ADWD is spectacular, some of the best character work yet. I love the Ironborn Kingsmoot, and the introduction of Euron and his nebulous plans. The Oldtown setting is the location I'm most excited about reading about going forward bar none, and Cersei's POVs in AFFC/ADWD are amazing because you just know you're watching a spectacular train wreck in slow motion.

[BlackTalon]

I don't get the dislike either. Sure there are some parts I like less than others, but ASOIAF at its worst is still a good deal better than most other writers at their best. It#s all part of one story, it all belongs together. Gotta take the sweet along with the sour to get the full taste.

[FuriousGeorge]

The narrative pacing for the last two books is off I think. When you re-read ACoK and ASoS you notice how well paced and plotted these books are while AFFC/ADWD aren't. That said, it's not like Martin isn't aware of this problem, and a lot of it's to do with the Meereenese knot and the elimination of the five year leap, so it looks to be a problem that'll hopefully resolve itself in the next two books.

That said, I agree with you some of the stuff introduced in the last two books is the best written stuff the series has done yet. Davos' chapter confronting the Manderly's and the Frey's in the Merman's court? Probably my favourite chapter in the series. Theon's arc in ADWD is spectacular, some of the best character work yet. I love the Ironborn Kingsmoot, and the introduction of Euron and his nebulous plans. The Oldtown setting is the location I'm most excited about reading about going forward bar none, and Cersei's POVs in AFFC/ADWD are amazing because you just know you're watching a spectacular train wreck in slow motion.

Davos' chapter where Manderly tells him what's actually gwannin is the best passage in the whole series for me. But the fact that GRRM builds up two inevitable wars throughout the whole of ADWD and then leaves them both on the brink was shocking. In the days after I read it I went around telling everyone I was boycotting the next two books haha bit dramatic and I have reneged on that now but it was still gutting.

[Dove]

I don't dislike them, but I understand the complaints. The pacing slows down and there's a lot more padding in between important events, but AFFC/ADWD contains some of GRRM's strongest writing to date in spite of it. ASOIAF at it's 'worst' is still more enjoyable than 98% of the fantasy genre for me.

A lot of the flaws tend to get picked apart and blown out of proportion moreso than the other books in the series because of how long it took them to come out, I think.

[Jabronius Maximus]

I read the books straight through in a couple of months, and Affc/adwd were a bit of a letdown after the blistering pace of ASOS. I wasn't a fan of some new PoVs, like Areo "the sentient brick wall" Hotah and the Damphair. But they are there as windows to see events at Dorne and the iron islands, places where some major events are likely to take place. That said, some great PoVs (imo) like Jaime and Barristan are introduced, so of course there's some good in books 4-5.

Basically for me books 4-5 are a mixed bag compared to the first 3. There's a lot to like, but for me the pace, as well as some flat PoVs take away a bit from the latter part of the series.

[JJB]

I don't hate either of them. I loved AFFC very much but I did dislike ADWD for too many Daenerys chapters and other things like Griffs.

[Toxspecific]

AGOT, ACOK, ASOS: Perfect balance of action and intensity with inner struggles, monologues and character development.

AFFC: The POV range is suddenly narrowed down, the strong presence of recently killed characters leaves a large void which the new guys like Aeron, Arianne etc simply can't fill yet, there's too little eventful action and too much Cersei thinking about how the world is against her and how they all are idiots, Jaime thinking about his hand, Brienne thinking about how she failed Lady Stark etc. The balance is lost.

ADWD: Liked it, not as much as the first 3 but I liked it. If it did not have all those painful Dany chapters it would've been quite good. Theon's chapters were amazing, absolutely amazing. Stannis conducting affairs like a boss in the North and bringing back some of the old 'House vs House' rivalry feels that were missing from AFFC.

[Grip]

I rank AFFC at the very top, alongside ASOS it is probably my favorite book in the ASOIAF series. What I like about it is, amongst other things, that it shows just how devastating the war has been and especially in the Riverlands. Brienne's chapters show this clearly, her meeting Septon Meribald and the Elder Brother is imo one of the strongest chapters in all of the books. That AFFC and ADWD are slower paced is understandable, considering the events in the previous book and the coming ones.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Nonsense! AFFC is wonderful and VERY informative plot wise. ADWD did drag out a little but the payoff was amazing(Jon's last chapter/Dany's last 2 chapters)

[BigFatCoward]

he could have easily cut out half the shite and made one very good book out of the two of them. AFFC while slow was still well written, ADWD was an absolute pile of crap, easily the biggest letdown i've ever had from any piece of literature. if he'd rushed it he would have an excuse but for it to be that bad after 6 years is unforgivable.

[Ydiot]

AGOT, ACOK, ASOS: Perfect balance of action and intensity with inner struggles, monologues and character development.

AFFC: The POV range is suddenly narrowed down, the strong presence of recently killed characters leaves a large void which the new guys like Aeron, Arianne etc simply can't fill yet, there's too little eventful action and too much Cersei thinking about how the world is against her and how they all are idiots, Jaime thinking about his hand, Brienne thinking about how she failed Lady Stark etc. The balance is lost.

ADWD: Liked it, not as much as the first 3 but I liked it. If it did not have all those painful Dany chapters it would've been quite good. Theon's chapters were amazing, absolutely amazing. Stannis conducting affairs like a boss in the North and bringing back some of the old 'House vs House' rivalry feels that were missing from AFFC.

Thats exactly how I feel about them!

[Jarlix]

My opinion on milk: "Skim that shit like a Daenerys chapter." A lot of writers tend to lose their touch after a prolonged departure from their careers, it's a fascinating peculiarity. But I've only finished the first two books besides a few sneak peaks at chapters of ADWD, spoiled myself entirely anyway. In Storm of Swords right now and I think it might just be just that you can't really get any better, the situation sort of hit it's 'sweet spot.' I hope it really isn't as bad in book 4 as people say it is, because I'm loving ASOS.

[Aquan]

I don't get the dislike either. Sure there are some parts I like less than others, but ASOIAF at its worst is still a good deal better than most other writers at their best. It#s all part of one story, it all belongs together. Gotta take the sweet along with the sour to get the full taste.

:agree:

he could have easily cut out half the shite and made one very good book out of the two of them. AFFC while slow was still well written, ADWD was an absolute pile of crap, easily the biggest letdown i've ever had from any piece of literature. if he'd rushed it he would have an excuse but for it to be that bad after 6 years is unforgivable.

The ugly side of extreme fandom never ceases to amaze me.

[Annabelle L'Eveque]

this is i think my first post. registered a while ago and don't remember if i ever said anything. anyway hi.

loved both of them all the way. ASOS was the climax of the first three books, so it was particularly eventful, but i love how AFFC and ADWD explores new characters, new situations for older characters and starts to build towards the climax of the series itself.

just read the both of them combined recently (inspired by the 'a ball of beasts' order which I've re-tweaked and i think they work even better that way. this is how i will re-read them going forward now. admittedly, it is one monster of a long book!

[King Tyrion VIII]

I really think most of the negativity towards AFFC/ADWD will go away after ASOIAF is finished. We haven't had a chance to see the pay off from those two books yet.

[Grip]

I said this in another thread and have said it often, but I think that AFFC benefits greatly from rereads. It certainly did for me, when first reading it I did not appreciate it to the same amount that I do now. ADWD aswell benefits from rereads, but generally I think that book is weaker than AFFC.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

I said this in another thread and have said it often, but I think that AFFC benefits greatly from rereads. It certainly did for me, when first reading it I did not appreciate it to the same amount that I do now. ADWD aswell benefits from rereads, but generally I think that book is weaker than AFFC.

True, before my reread AFFC was at the bottom of my favorites list, but now its in my top 3. Its a wonderful "interlude" IMO

[Toxspecific]

My opinion on milk: "Skim that shit like a Daenerys chapter." A lot of writers tend to lose their touch after a prolonged departure from their careers, it's a fascinating peculiarity. But I've only finished the first two books besides a few sneak peaks at chapters of ADWD, spoiled myself entirely anyway. In Storm of Swords right now and I think it might just be just that you can't really get any better, the situation sort of hit it's 'sweet spot.' I hope it really isn't as bad in book 4 as people say it is, because I'm loving ASOS.

You spoiled it for yourself? Dude, HORRIBLE decision.

[Jarlix]

You spoiled it for yourself? Dude, HORRIBLE decision.

Still enjoying every bit of it. The show itself was kind of a spoiler and I couldn't discuss it without book readers talking about Tywin actually not shitting gold, "contrary to popular belief," as one example among others. So I am on board for the whole ride now, I guess.