AFFC/ADWD Hate?

[DarkSnow]

They seem to of lost momentum, especially Daenarys holding court all the time, just go to Westeros already woman.

[Zylathas]

I don't understand the hate tbh. AFFC and ADWD are my favorite books of the whole series...

[Flayed Starkman]

I don't understand the hate tbh. AFFC and ADWD are my favorite books of the whole series...

That's pretty interesting. How come?

[Zylathas]

That's pretty interesting. How come?

I liked the new pov's that where added and I liked that even if "not" much happened in the books the story progressed alot further and it added way more depth to the last two books for the big ending.

The last two (AFFC and ADWD) are definatly the most interesting of the series and alot of small things happen that might seem unimportant but aren't at all

[MostInterestingManWesteros]

I liked the new pov's that where added and I liked that even if "not" much happened in the books the story progressed alot further and it added way more depth to the last two books for the big ending.

The last two (AFFC and ADWD) are definatly the most interesting of the series and alot of small things happen that might seem unimportant but aren't at all

:agree: I just feel like come on GRRM, after all that shit we need some answers! Shit needs to start going down u know what I mean! I feel like one day in the distant future when ASOIAF is complete we wont feel so let down, but to leave nearly every major character hanging at the end of the 5th book just seemed kinda lazy to me. :blushing:

[Zylathas]

Some characters are even litteraly hanging I noticed...

But I think that these two books were needed, without these books book 6 and 7 would be way less epic I think. This was just the lengthy buildup for the next part of the story.

[gash]

i think the change of pace was needed in AFFC. i see the series as being in two parts. the first 3 books and the ast 3 books. after the climax of the 3rd book, the next "phase" had to be set up - new characters, new locations, new arcs etc.

[Cubicz]

Some of my fav's from these two books:

All of Theon

Brienne/Stoneheart

Cersei's sprial into insanity

Pate

Davos learning about Rickon

Bran's entire last chapter

Quentin's attempt at taming the dragons, and death.

Dany's successful taming of Drogon / riding up

Dislike:

Melisendre and Barristan chapters- too inside baseball, misleading and boring (respectively)

Aeron/Kingsmoot snorefest

[Toxspecific]

What I expected when I saw the title 'A Dance with Dragons': Dany finally going to Westeros! Hell yeah, finally she does something that doesn't bore me to tears.

What I got: Quentyn (who I liked as a character) tries to free dragons in a stupid plot, Quentyn gets burned, Westeros nowhere near the picture.

[The Red Bard]

The big problem is that the world got so big one book alone literally could not contain it. Twenty years from now when the series is complete and new readers will only be left hanging for as long as it takes them to reach for the next book in the series, cliffhangers won't be an issue. Waiting five years at a time is frustrating, therefore anything that came along that can be deemed weak or insubstantial in the meantime would be focused on with not a lot of love, to put it kindly.

What exactly is not liked is subjective really. There's so much characterisation everyone is bound to prefer some over others. For me it was Bran's chapters. It was cold and nobody was very cheery on their way to Bloodraven (and that's about it!), didn't do it for me.

The reason the books do work is that their is always more to like then dislike. We wouldn't care nearly as much if that wasn't the case.

[Kienn]

People don't like them because no important characters die.

Not really surprising since the time period was originally going to be skipped entirely.

[Lady Lea]

I loved ADWD. I read it in two weeks (among finals and lots of due papers) as opposed to AFFC which took me ages. The thing is, AFFC was pretty slow and full of characters I don't like (the Greyjoys, Sam, Oakheart), or don't really care about (Brienne, Arianne). But ADWD was cool. New stuff at the Wall, Bran's chapters finally get interesting, Arya's chapters, Theon gets (WAY) interesting... it was slower than usual but I liked it nonetheless. I even liked Dany's chapters.

[King of Winters]

I loved ADWD. I read it in two weeks (among finals and lots of due papers) as opposed to AFFC which took me ages. The thing is, AFFC was pretty slow and full of characters I don't like (the Greyjoys, Sam, Oakheart), or don't really care about (Brienne, Arianne). But ADWD was cool. New stuff at the Wall, Bran's chapters finally get interesting, Arya's chapters, Theon gets (WAY) interesting... it was slower than usual but I liked it nonetheless. I even liked Dany's chapters.

I found Bran's chapters really interesting, I wish there was more.

[Nictarion]

I was recently reading a number of threads in regards to disliking affc/adwd. Many feel the books began to drag and get dull, due to the pacing, and they hated certain POVs.

I can't understand this!

The length of Martin's books has never bothered me. For me, the amount of detail that goes into the descriptions/side issues is a great part of the books as it helps immerse me in the world. If it was up to me, I wish nothing was cut out and the books were huge.

I also can't understand the hate towards certain POVs to the point where people groan when they get to a certain character, or just skip over that chapter entirely. For me, to love asoiaf is to love the whole package. Whether it be Starks, Lannisters, or the Dornish, I can't get enough of them. So much of the reviews of the last 2 books have been focusing on the negatives. What about the positives? How about all the new amazing characters, major or minor, the reintroduction of Theon, Daenerys and Drogon, and the myriad of other fantastic things.

Does anyone else share my view?

I absolutely share your view on AFFC and ADWD. I loved both of them. I especially liked all the Dorne parts. I think the Cersei chapters in Feast and Theon chapters in Dance are some of the best of the series.

[Nictarion]

They should really be one book. The problem isn´t the writing but the structure of the books.

AGOT is a whole story, a hero rises to power, discovers a terrible secret and dies after making horrible mistakes.

The next two also have similar journeys, AFFC starts many arcs but doesn´t end them. It will be better in context, because it´s not an independent work but a prelude to bigger things.

I think they were originally intended to be one book. Cant remember why the choice to split them up was made. I guess the sheer amount of pages probably.

[Errant Bard]

I Liked AFFC, there were as many bad part as in any previous volume, but on the whole it was well written, consistent, reinforced the setting, asked some interesting questions and played well with a few fantasy tropes (I'll skip the "Maggi the Frog" stuff, meh). ADWD on the other hand showed the increasing lack of control from Martin over his setting, especially egregious when he chooses to make that setting caricatural like in the east, and the relative loss of subtlety in some PoV writing (htough this began in AFFC, with among others the Maggi the frog prophecy). I was once hoping for better, more nuanced worldbuilding and writing for the east, at least on par with how westeros is shown, once some other PoV would make their way there, but heh, it's the reverse that happened, PoV happened to slightly lose substance once they were thrown there... the orientalism of the setting rubbing on them or something like that I suppose.

The biggest problems are not tied to ADWD though, they just get worse with time: the "gardener" approach made a mess out of the storyline (scrapping of the 5 years gap, obligation to fill characters schedules while others have to do stuff at an unrealistic pace, all the while writing at length about every corner of the realm, even if not truly important the the core story) and Martin struggles and fails to set it right... The main offender is probably ASOS there, anyway.

[total1402]

I was recently reading a number of threads in regards to disliking affc/adwd. Many feel the books began to drag and get dull, due to the pacing, and they hated certain POVs.

I can't understand this!

The length of Martin's books has never bothered me. For me, the amount of detail that goes into the descriptions/side issues is a great part of the books as it helps immerse me in the world. If it was up to me, I wish nothing was cut out and the books were huge.

I also can't understand the hate towards certain POVs to the point where people groan when they get to a certain character, or just skip over that chapter entirely. For me, to love asoiaf is to love the whole package. Whether it be Starks, Lannisters, or the Dornish, I can't get enough of them. So much of the reviews of the last 2 books have been focusing on the negatives. What about the positives? How about all the new amazing characters, major or minor, the reintroduction of Theon, Daenerys and Drogon, and the myriad of other fantastic things.

Does anyone else share my view?

No. He puts the plot on hold to introduce a million new characters nobody cares about and their (often redundent) stories. He then spends thousands of pages of suspense, build up, boredom only to end every single plot on a cliffhanger. The positives might be there, but they are so few and dwarfed by the negatives. They are bad books and I hope Winds of Winter can reverse this downward spiral; though I am far from hopeful this is going to be the case.

[Azzanadra]

Like I have said in another thread, AFFC is THE most boring book I have ever read, and this is coming from ASOS which in contrast is one of the best, most exiting books I have ever read. I hope I never have to read AFFC again. If I ever do I reread of the entire series, I will skip AFFC and parts of ADWD and read summaries or something.

[Death By Fire]

I definetly don't hate them. Theon's story in Dance and Cersei's story in Feast are the best storylines imo. I feel like there were some unnecessary POVs added and parts where the story didn't move on or just wasn't interesting. I feel like Daenerys, Tyrion and Arya's stories were way less interesting and maybe if George had cut a bunch of imo unnecessary chapters he could've made one book.

[Gannicus]

I agree that there is small payoff. But i think things have changed. Jon is out of the picture for a while. Aegon's landing in the Stormlands is pretty big (though I think that storyline was poorly handled, there was no foreshadowing, it just felt tacked on). Otherwise, I agree, not nearly enough happened. If the two battles had been included, maybe this could have be forgiven,.

Tacked on is a good word, and it wasn't just Aegon.

The Iron Islands and Dorne play a role in the overall plot, but Quentyn, Damphire, Oakheart, and other seemed tacked on to those stories.

From the end of ASOS to the End of ADWD

KL is still in the hands of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance

Tyrion is still trying to meet up with Dany

Dany is still in Essos.

Sansa is still with LF in the Vale

Arya is still in Braavos

Brienne is still questing

The only original storyline that seems to have made any strides forward is the one in the North. Even then, we're left with Jon stabbed and Stannis potentially dead.