AFFC/ADWD Hate?

[Jasta11]

Feast just moves around way too slowly. After the almost perfect pacing of Swords, it's jarring to have all those new and sometimes completely unnecessary POVs who bog down the plot, especially on the Iron Islands. Brienne's quest would also be more interesting if the reader didn't know that it's bound to fail. I mean, world-building is nice, but not at the expense of actually advancing the story. Only the delightfully mad Cercei chapters save this book from being a bore, honestly. Easily the worst of the series.

Dance has issues but it picks up the pace quite quickly. The story at the Wall and in the North are great, and after his dreadful first chapter Tyrion's tale got interesting. Dany's POVs are a bit boring because nothing happens (seriously, Martin could at least have included the battles, it was like leaving the Blackwater out of Clash). The new POVs are usually interesting enough to warrant them, save for Quentyn. What was the point of his story anyway, apart from alienating Dany in the eyes of Dorne? Overall I'd rate it alongside Clash of Kings, but not as good as Game of Thrones or Storm of Swords.

[Joyful Union]

I agree with you Gannicus, not nearly enough changed. Most of the story lines are kind of frozen in amber at the moment. Character development can only go so far, we need payoff!

[hollowcrown]

If Feast and Dance had the chapters mixed up more so we had the new PoVs, and the familiar PoVs from Storm characters mixed up, and they ended with the battle for Mereen and Winterfell, then I would definitely approve.

As it is, it sucked that in Feast we only got Jaime, Sam,Arya (and Sansa?) as the familar chapters and had to wait ages to find out what was happening to Jon/Dany/Tyrion/Davos .

[Toxspecific]

AFFC had no Theon.

I shan't forget that. That dude's chapters rock.

[Death By Fire]

AFFC had no Theon.

I shan't forget that. That dude's chapters rock.

Well, neither did ASoS and that book rocks.

[Lord Lymond Lychester]

I think the problem is too many people mistake death, war, and action as plot.

they may lend to it, but this series is not about the action of the war entirely.

It would be like saying The Wire is about gangs in Baltimore

AFFC shows you the more political side of ASOIAF (introducing Cersei, Doran, Arriane pov chapters, as well as the kings moot chapters)

as well as the poorly planned political machinations (Doran's plan for Quentyn, Arriane's plan to crown Marcella, Cersei's plan to get rid of Margaery)

The introduction of the Warrior's Sons

and just as a side note, Aryas time in Braavos, Sam and Maester Aemon's travels, and Brienne's chapters were all amazing story lines.

ADWD begins to set in motion the change that is coming to Westoros and the battles that will start out TWOW.

The battle of Winterfell will need an explanation, so it's quite understandable that they build that up throughout the book (Through Jon's chapters and the unforgettable Theon chapters)

Tyrion's chapters introduce us to the possible son of Rhaegar, as well as give a lot of insight into the history of the known world (which IMHO are just as interesting as anything else throughout the series)

By the end Dany seems about ready to leave Mireen for good and make her way back home.

Moqorro and Victarion, enough said.

This series is constantly building, and AFFC and ADWD probably have the most development as far as allegiances and political machinations go.

By the end of the two books, sure there may be a cliffhanger, but the books have given you enough details into what future events are going to take place and the severity of them.

TWOW are going to start with two battles, in two completely different climates, with outcomes that could rival that of the Battle of Blackwater Bay.

Thanks to the events of AFFC and ADWD, we are going to have the most, and I hate this word, but the most epic beginning to the next book.

[FuriousGeorge]

You

s

You say that would be like saying The Wire is about gangs in Baltimore as if the Wire isn't about gangs in Baltimore. Obviously it is about more than just that but every season, without fail, has gangs, violence, drugs.

[total1402]

By the end of the two books, sure there may be a cliffhanger, but the books have given you enough details into what future events are going to take place and the severity of them.

TWOW are going to start with two battles, in two completely different climates, with outcomes that could rival that of the Battle of Blackwater Bay.

Thanks to the events of AFFC and ADWD, we are going to have the most, and I hate this word, but the most epic beginning to the next book.

There is not A cliffhanger. Every single plot, bare possibly Arriane and JC ones were left unresolved and literally in limbo. This is not just war or battle scenes. Sam at the Citadel, Arya training in Braavos, WTF is Bran doing, Brienne n Jamie, Theons treatment. Its even worse when you consider just how much bullshit you had to wade through just to get to these very simple points. It would be like if Martin spent a whole book telling us how Cat got to the Stormlands to meet Renly; its not important. Most of the books are travelogues. Its not comparable to us not knowing about whether Jamie was killed by Cat at the end of ACOK. This is like if ASOS ended with Dany still bartering for Unsullied. Mance on his way to the Wall, Brienne in the pit with a bear , joffery about to havce his wedding and Robb Stark taking Lord Walders bread and water. If you took those scenes out of ASOS you would gut that book. That is what Martin did to AFFC/ADWD.he seems to have made a concious decision to make the two most boring and assinine books ever written just so he can give us an inkling of what might be coming in WoW.

I prefer a good ending to a good beginning. ASOS began with the Fist of the First Men. That needed no build up and it was a suitable surprise to get you involved early on and give a taste of things in store to come. In my gut, he has raised expectations far too high and I think its only going to anti-climatic as he has to splurge three battles at once very early in the book.

[Lord Lymond Lychester]

You

You say that would be like saying The Wire is about gangs in Baltimore as if the Wire isn't about gangs in Baltimore. Obviously it is about more than just that but every season, without fail, has gangs, violence, drugs.

I'm not sure what you were quoting me on, but I'll try to explain myself the best I can

and I apologize I didn't want to make this all about the wire, merely using it as a reference

Yes the gangs play a role throughout the entire series, but as the series grows, it moves past just the gangs and shows the political, educational, and media aspects to the city. The Wire is about Baltimore. gangs, docks, politics, the education system and media are all part of it.

We may have watched the wire for different reasons, personally I found the last 3 seasons way more interesting because it showed a deeper insight into how the politics of Baltimore played into how everything works. (ex. Stringer Bell trying to start his Development, Councilman/Mayor Carcetti's career, the politics of the Police department)

Which is what I was trying to say, as this series is progressing we're getting deeper into the politics of westeros, and understanding how the country works as a whole (in terms of affiliations and getting deeper insight to houses that were secondary in the previous books)

[FuriousGeorge]

I'm not sure what you were quoting me on, but I'll try to explain myself the best I can

and I apologize I didn't want to make this all about the wire, merely using it as a reference

Yes the gangs play a role throughout the entire series, but as the series grows, it moves past just the gangs and shows the political, educational, and media aspects to the city. The Wire is about Baltimore. gangs, docks, politics, the education system and media are all part of it.

We may have watched the wire for different reasons, personally I found the last 3 seasons way more interesting because it showed a deeper insight into how the politics of Baltimore played into how everything works. (ex. Stringer Bell trying to start his Development, Councilman/Mayor Carcetti's career, the politics of the Police department)

Which is what I was trying to say, as this series is progressing we're getting deeper into the politics of westeros, and understanding how the country works as a whole (in terms of affiliations and getting deeper insight to houses that were secondary in the previous books)

Our reasons for watching the Wire are probably broadly similar and I know how the Wire develops over the 5 seasons (if i went on mastermind my special subject would be the Wire - my username for this forum is a quote from the best character ever conceived!). Im just saying that 'Its about gangs in Baltimore' works as a very very simple description. I actually very much like the parellels you draw though in terms of how layers are added to the story with every series/book, though I disagree that depth is added. It seems like GRRM just made the story wider in AFFC and ADWD not deeper.

[total1402]

I'm not sure what you were quoting me on, but I'll try to explain myself the best I can

and I apologize I didn't want to make this all about the wire, merely using it as a reference

Yes the gangs play a role throughout the entire series, but as the series grows, it moves past just the gangs and shows the political, educational, and media aspects to the city. The Wire is about Baltimore. gangs, docks, politics, the education system and media are all part of it.

We may have watched the wire for different reasons, personally I found the last 3 seasons way more interesting because it showed a deeper insight into how the politics of Baltimore played into how everything works. (ex. Stringer Bell trying to start his Development, Councilman/Mayor Carcetti's career, the politics of the Police department)

Which is what I was trying to say, as this series is progressing we're getting deeper into the politics of westeros, and understanding how the country works as a whole (in terms of affiliations and getting deeper insight to houses that were secondary in the previous books)

What little character development happens in AFFC/ADWD either does not warrent the amount of time spent on it or is just a continuation of trends the characters had already fully explored like Jamies redemption arc. I mean a 1500 pages so Dany can just shrug her shoulders and go "fuck it I'll just kill them all; no more mrs nice girl"? Have Tyrion depressed and repeating the same thoughts in his skull a million times as we watch him become a device to introduce several menageries of new characters in Volantis and elsewhere? Have Jon try to be a leader but not face an actual challenge like, you know, the ancient enemy his order was founded to fight and which by all rights should be bearing down on them. The whole book is just waiting and waiting for something to happen in a chapter and then it just ends as it seems something might actually be about to happen.

The series has gone on for a long time. We aren't new to this. We know what the score is and how things work. So I don't see the reason why everything needs to be slowed as if we have to be reintroduced to the political landscape of Westeros and Essos as if this is a new series. I already knew from ASOS that Volantis was going to attack. This did not require me to have 3 POV characters go to Volantis just to embellish who Danys enemy was and why they think shes a bad person. I do not care about Dorne. The red Viper was cool but Martin seems to have let that go to his head and milked that character by giving us 9 or so extra Dornish names to remember and act like I should care.... Never mind that we get given three more POV character purely to explain why they DON'T support Daenerys and why we should feel bad about that coz deys such nice people.

[Lord Lymond Lychester]

There is not A cliffhanger. Every single plot, bare possibly Arriane and JC ones were left unresolved and literally in limbo. This is not just war or battle scenes. Sam at the Citadel, Arya training in Braavos, WTF is Bran doing, Brienne n Jamie, Theons treatment. Its even worse when you consider just how much bullshit you had to wade through just to get to these very simple points. It would be like if Martin spent a whole book telling us how Cat got to the Stormlands to meet Renly; its not important. Most of the books are travelogues. Its not comparable to us not knowing about whether Jamie was killed by Cat at the end of ACOK. This is like if ASOS ended with Dany still bartering for Unsullied. Mance on his way to the Wall, Brienne in the pit with a bear , joffery about to havce his wedding and Robb Stark taking Lord Walders bread and water. If you took those scenes out of ASOS you would gut that book. That is what Martin did to AFFC/ADWD.he seems to have made a concious decision to make the two most boring and assinine books ever written just so he can give us an inkling of what might be coming in WoW.

I prefer a good ending to a good beginning. ASOS began with the Fist of the First Men. That needed no build up and it was a suitable surprise to get you involved early on and give a taste of things in store to come. In my gut, he has raised expectations far too high and I think its only going to anti-climatic as he has to splurge three battles at once very early in the book.

To each his own.

As I said in my post above, I personally loved those "travelogues" as you call them. I love exploring the history and regions of their world that have yet to be explored in the books.

Through Tyrion's ADWD pov chapters you get a lot of insight into the history of the known world, as well as his travels through many historical regions of essos.

Sam's travel with Aemon and Gilly in AFFC provided for some of the most heart wrenching passages in the books, the loss of maester Aemon. The dangers of travelling at sea, also played a big part in his passages.

The terror of Bran's travel above the wall in ADWD, and the pure mystery of it when he makes it to the cave. His further knowledge of the greenseeing ability.

In the end it's all preference, I enjoyed the 2 books for some reasons you didn't

When I finished ADWD I didn't feel cheated I though that epiloque was one of the best considering all that set up in the last 2 books.

I'm looking at this as an overall series, so if one or two books don't end with a definitive ending, oh well

as long as the series ends with a definitive ending I'm happy

[total1402]

To each his own.

As I said in my post above, I personally loved those "travelogues" as you call them. I love exploring the history and regions of their world that have yet to be explored in the books.

Through Tyrion's ADWD pov chapters you get a lot of insight into the history of the known world, as well as his travels through many historical regions of essos.

Sam's travel with Aemon and Gilly in AFFC provided for some of the most heart wrenching passages in the books, the loss of maester Aemon. The dangers of travelling at sea, also played a big part in his passages.

The terror of Bran's travel above the wall in ADWD, and the pure mystery of it when he makes it to the cave. His further knowledge of the greenseeing ability.

In the end it's all preference, I enjoyed the 2 books for some reasons you didn't

When I finished ADWD I didn't feel cheated I though that epiloque was one of the best considering all that set up in the last 2 books.

I'm looking at this as an overall series, so if one or two books don't end with a definitive ending, oh well

as long as the series ends with a definitive ending I'm happy

Fair enough, if thats what you like.

Personally, I almost felt insulted that I'd spent £10 on a clearly unfinished book that they hadn't even bothered editing. I mean we get two in depth multi-age descriptions of what happens at Astapor in Quentyn and Daenerys chapters; each following on from one another. So yes, I definetly felt cheated and I am really pessimistic for that reason about WoW.

[A Man Has Said]

I didn't like AFFC on the first read, and I can easily tell you why. All the chapters devoted to characters I'd never heard of before, who I didn't know, and had no idea how they were significant to the story I was already reading.

In the Bantam paperback editions

A Game of Thrones spans 807 pages

A Clash of Kings is 969

A Storm of Sword is 1128

for a total of 2904 pages.

After 2904 pages, an author hasn't even set up the story yet, to the point that literally DOZENS of new characters have to be added in a book 4 that itself adds 976 more pages to the story? It's unprecedented in the history of literature, I'm sure.

But that's not my complaint. The complaint is that a) he abandons, or nearly so, the characters whose stories we were already invested in (to the tune of 2904 pages) and are dying to hear about. Arya only gets 3 chapters in AFFC. and B) he only complicates the already monumental task of keeping all these characters straight in your head, both for the reader and himself.

I think B) is underlined by the fact that it took him so long to write ADWD -it's like he's abandoned telling the story that he started out writing to add all this additional material. And btw, does anyone REALLY think that the Mereenese knot was actually untied in ADWD? I don't. So do we now have to wait another decade or more until he can figure how to untie the fAegon knot, the Dornian knot and the Oldtown/Citadel knot? When I read something, I like reading it from one end to the other. I can't do that, because one end hasn't yet been written.

That said, I am just now starting my first RE-read of AFFC, and I'm enjoying immensely more on the second time through than on the first pass, which for me was about a year ago. Because now I know who Areo Hotah and the Sand Sisters are, who Quentyn Martell is, who Jon Connington is, etc., etc.. But how many people have the luxury of the time it takes to read nearly 5,000 pages TWICE!?!

[Holy Sock]

And btw, does anyone REALLY think that the Mereenese knot was actually untied in ADWD? I don't.

It was indeed! Here's a quote from Martin explaining the knot.

Q: Now that we know how the “Meereenese knot” played out, what was the problem with this? For example, was it the order in which Dany met various characters, or who, when, and how someone would try to take the dragons?

A: Now I can explain things. It was a confluence of many, many factors: lets start with the offer from Xaro to give Dany ships, the refusal of which then leads to Qarth’s declaration of war. Then there’s the marriage of Daenerys to pacify the city. Then there’s the arrival of the Yunkish army at the gates of Meereen, there’s the order of arrival of various people going her way (Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion, Aegon, Marwyn, etc.), and then there’s Daario, this dangerous sellsword and the question of whether Dany really wants him or not, there’s the plague, there’s Drogon’s return to Meereen…

All of these things were balls I had thrown up into the air, and they’re all linked and chronologically entwined. The return of Drogon to the city was something I explored as happening at different times. For example, I wrote three different versions of Quentyn’s arrival at Meereen: one where he arrived long before Dany’s marriage, one where he arrived much later, and one where he arrived just the day before the marriage (which is how it ended up being in the novel). And I had to write all three versions to be able to compare and see how these different arrival points affected the stories of the other characters. Including the story of a character who actually hasn’t arrived yet

[Lord Lymond Lychester]

What little character development happens in AFFC/ADWD either does not warrent the amount of time spent on it or is just a continuation of trends the characters had already fully explored like Jamies redemption arc. I mean a 1500 pages so Dany can just shrug her shoulders and go "fuck it I'll just kill them all; no more mrs nice girl"? Have Tyrion depressed and repeating the same thoughts in his skull a million times as we watch him become a device to introduce several menageries of new characters in Volantis and elsewhere? Have Jon try to be a leader but not face an actual challenge like, you know, the ancient enemy his order was founded to fight and which by all rights should be bearing down on them. The whole book is just waiting and waiting for something to happen in a chapter and then it just ends as it seems something might actually be about to happen.

The series has gone on for a long time. We aren't new to this. We know what the score is and how things work. So I don't see the reason why everything needs to be slowed as if we have to be reintroduced to the political landscape of Westeros and Essos as if this is a new series. I already knew from ASOS that Volantis was going to attack. This did not require me to have 3 POV characters go to Volantis just to embellish who Danys enemy was and why they think shes a bad person. I do not care about Dorne. The red Viper was cool but Martin seems to have let that go to his head and milked that character by giving us 9 or so extra Dornish names to remember and act like I should care.... Never mind that we get given three more POV character purely to explain why they DON'T support Daenerys and why we should feel bad about that coz deys such nice people.

I'm sorry that you didn't find the books as enjoyable as I did. As I said it's all preferences.

While there may not have been much character development, which aren't the reasons I enjoyed these, there were more major players introduced that could have effect on everybody else's decisions, reintroduction of old characters, and new dynasties growing as well as possibly falling.

you're not going to change my opinion on the two books anymore than I will yours.

[total1402]

TBH, I am slightly suspicious of one of two things.

Either-

1- It was always Martins intention to introduce all these characters like Aegon, Dorne, Theons uncles and that they would have such a huge impact on the story; on a level with established characters all along we just didn't realise until AFFC. However, as Martin expanded his origional trilogy so much he had to spend time before he put these crucial characters in. However this felt very jarring since all of a sudden we're waiting on what Dorne will do and Aegon is pivotal to events in Westeros.

2-Some were outright invented as he was writing so that he could have things happen instead of his five year gap. Quentyn is a good candidate for this and lots of the tertiary characters can be lumped into this group.

[total1402]

It was indeed! Here's a quote from Martin explaining the knot.

Q: Now that we know how the “Meereenese knot” played out, what was the problem with this? For example, was it the order in which Dany met various characters, or who, when, and how someone would try to take the dragons?

A: Now I can explain things. It was a confluence of many, many factors: lets start with the offer from Xaro to give Dany ships, the refusal of which then leads to Qarth’s declaration of war. Then there’s the marriage of Daenerys to pacify the city. Then there’s the arrival of the Yunkish army at the gates of Meereen, there’s the order of arrival of various people going her way (Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion, Aegon, Marwyn, etc.), and then there’s Daario, this dangerous sellsword and the question of whether Dany really wants him or not, there’s the plague, there’s Drogon’s return to Meereen…

All of these things were balls I had thrown up into the air, and they’re all linked and chronologically entwined. The return of Drogon to the city was something I explored as happening at different times. For example, I wrote three different versions of Quentyn’s arrival at Meereen: one where he arrived long before Dany’s marriage, one where he arrived much later, and one where he arrived just the day before the marriage (which is how it ended up being in the novel). And I had to write all three versions to be able to compare and see how these different arrival points affected the stories of the other characters. Including the story of a character who actually hasn’t arrived yet

I actually don't believe him.

Know why?

Quentyn is the ONLY point of view character to ever meet Daenerys during ADWD. All the others like Tyrion, Victarion and even those who don't get POVs like Marwyn do not reach her. So arguing that he had trouble arranging the order of things is pretty silly since all he needs to decide is when Quentyn shows up. I think his ansawr actually gives the real problem itself. Why on earth dwell on Xaros offer on ships? We already discussed and established that Dany cannot leave Mereen in ASOS. Why are you restating what we already know. Is Qarth a crucial military power? No, Volantis, Yunkai and New Ghis are and they are already at war with her. Qaarths declaration of war is a trivial matter besides that and it contributes only a few ships to the considerable forces arrayed against her; it changes nothing. Its a scene which doesn't add anything to the story and more to the point what does it have to do with the order of events? Its his refusal to cut material like that and the number of characters he added which created the problem of him not finishing the arc even with 1500 pages to do it. He clearly felt the need to kill a few POV characters so we have to have three Quentyn chapters to make us sympathise with him which neccesiates inventing matters of no consequence for Dany to deal with before she marries Hidzhar and we feel sooo sorry for Mr Q. Whilst Tyrion as I mentioned is just a device to introduce Aegon so he can't arrive and this also delays him reaching Mereen. Then Vic can't just teleport there because Martin suddenly follows the timeline so can't do anything until part 2. Instead we need to have 3 chapters explaining why hes going to do what he already stated he woul do at the end of AFFC; betray Euron and steal his dragon queen. But nooo, apparently this was never Vics intention and Moqorro needs to save him from the puppet master...

Martin made problems for himself, this wasn't some unassailable literary obstacle. Its three guys try to get to Dany by boat. Its the simplest thing to do in the world but he tries to interconnect them all needlessly and elaborate on the journey. The end result was that he couldn't pull it off because he ended up cutting the battle of Mereen entirely anyway. So he really fucked up big time if he spent six years trying to reach that point where all these characters converge and we get an epic confrontation.

[A Man Has Said]

I actually don't believe him.

Know why?

Quentyn is the ONLY point of view character to ever meet Daenerys during ADWD...

Martin made problems for himself, this wasn't some unassailable literary obstacle. Its three guys try to get to Dany by boat. Its the simplest thing to do in the world but he tries to interconnect them all needlessly and elaborate on the journey. The end result was that he couldn't pull it off because he ended up cutting the battle of Mereen entirely anyway. So he really fucked up big time if he spent six years trying to reach that point where all these characters converge and we get an epic confrontation.

First, thank you for your excellent reply to Holy Sock, which is just what I would have said.

"Martin made problems for himself.. ..he really fucked up big time."

ESPECIALLY if you consider his little addendum to AFfC, "Meanwhile Back at the Wall" where he

1) explains how exactly he fucked up, "the book had become too big to publish in a single volume...and I wasn't close to finished yet." and explains his decision to cut the two books he had now made out of one on a POV basis instead of chronologically -- because he had created too many damned POVs!!

2) sets an expectation that the second book of the now-split-into-two "will be along next year." Which, how could it NOT be? He should at this point have written most of the material for the characters at the Wall and across the sea before AFfC was published!

Any complaints GRRM had about fans nagging him, (Including the most well-known "To My Detractors" on his blog) were the direct result of him setting an expectation that he really should have been able to meet, then sitting on his laurels for over five years. IMnsHO, as always.

[Pinkie Baelish]

ADWD was easily the most frustrating book of the series for me. I'm still a bit disappointed by AFFC, but I definitely wouldn't mind re-reading it. It has it's moments. What's really frustrating about ADWD is that Theon and Jon's chapters show that GRRM still has it in him to write utterly compelling character arcs, but this potential remains wasted in ADWD. Rather than focusing on plot and character development, we get unwanted backstories of characters like the Tattered Prince and overly excessive descriptions of food and clothing.