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How would you rate episode 304?  

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  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

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You haven't said what was incomprehensible about the Varys/QoT, save to say that it wasn't in ASoS, and in your opinion marginally changes the character of Olenna Tyrell. It was a perfectly plausible scheme and scenario.

The scene doesn't make sense because it creates the plot hole of how on earth LF is going to smuggle Sansa out of KL when quite literally everybody and their grandmother knows what he's up to? Specifically Varys knowing creates a plot hole. Why would he be hell bent on opposing LF's plans for Sansa now, but not be able to track her to the Vale later?

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Agreed. Every non-book reader I know (and they are not dummies either) is totally confused about everything but Dany's story since she is off on her own and her story is more easy to follow. But they have no clue what is going on with Jon Snow. No clue who Arya is with. No clue what Bran is up to. No idea what anyone in King's Landing is talking about. No clue who Jaime Lannister is with. No idea who Theon is with or why he is even there.

How can they watch the show and not know the basic things? I understand that they can be a little confused, but I haven't read the books yet and I still understand most of the plot.

I think that the confusion is coming from the fact that most of the events that led to the state characters are now in happened in season 2 and they may not remember them clearly.

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The scene doesn't make sense because it creates the plot hole of how on earth LF is going to smuggle Sansa out of KL when quite literally everybody and their grandmother knows what he's up to? Specifically Varys knowing creates a plot hole. Why would he be hell bent on opposing LF's plans for Sansa now, but not be able to track her to the Vale later?

As far as I can tell, only Ros, Varys, and Olenna know. That's not a lot of people. Substituting Ros for Dontos, that's two more people that know compared to in the books. Two people who keep secrets to further their position.

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As far as I can tell, only Ros, Varys, and Olenna know. That's not a lot of people. Substituting Ros for Dontos, that's two more people that know compared to in the books. Two people who keep secrets to further their position.

When it comes to secret plots Varys knowing is more damaging to LF's schemes than a hundred others knowing. Like I say, why would Varys oppose LF in manipulating Sansa now, but then just ignore Sansa later? Makes no sense.

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When it comes to secret plots Varys knowing is more damaging to LF's schemes than a hundred others knowing. Like I say, why would Varys oppose LF in manipulating Sansa now, but then just ignore Sansa later? Makes no sense.

I agree. it's more damaging than a million people knowing. But change your comment from "quite literally everybody and their grandmother" to Varys and Olenna if you'd like to be accurate.

My question is, since this whole rivalry between Varys and Littlefinger is show created, is Varys' actual motivations just to spurn Littlefinger? We know he wants to destabilize the Lannisters and thus Westeros in general, but does he truly care that much about LF knowing that he has Aegon in the works and wants Westeros as fucked up as possible to make his conquest successful? In fact, supporting Littlefinger would only strengthen that, since LF is basically creating enmity between the major houses. I think he's just manipulating Olenna into marrying Sansa into their family to create more of a power struggle between the Tyrells and the Lannisters.

Edited by DarkAndFullOfTurnips
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The scene doesn't make sense because it creates the plot hole of how on earth LF is going to smuggle Sansa out of KL when quite literally everybody and their grandmother knows what he's up to? Specifically Varys knowing creates a plot hole. Why would he be hell bent on opposing LF's plans for Sansa now, but not be able to track her to the Vale later?

Firstly, three people is not that much.

It doesn't create a plothole, merely an obstacle for LF to work around. Also, its not entirely impossible that LF was planning this the entire time, in order to test Ros's loyalty, and also to put himself beyond suspicion where Sansa is concerned. This way, he gets Sansa, and roots out one of Varys's spies. It's not entirely impossible that the show will have LF outmaneuvering Varys in this way.

Edited by Joyful Union
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I agree. it's more damaging than a million people knowing. But change your comment from "quite literally everybody and their grandmother" to Varys and Olenna if you'd like to be accurate.

My question is, since this whole rivalry between Varys and Littlefinger is show created, is Varys' actual motivations just to spurn Littlefinger? We know he wants to destabilize the Lannisters and thus Westeros in general, but does he truly care that much about LF knowing that he has Aegon in the works and wants Westeros as fucked up as possible to make his conquest successful? In fact, supporting Littlefinger would only strengthen that, since LF is basically creating enmity between the major houses. I think he's just manipulating Olenna into marrying Sansa into their family to create more of a power struggle between the Tyrells and the Lannisters.

Possibly, it could potentially work like that and I hope it does. I really hope that D+D were thinking through the implications of changing a delicate spider's web (if you'll pardon the pun.) and have planned ahead for that rather than just writing the scene for some witty banter. I'm not overly hopeful tbh.

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Possibly, it could potentially work like that and I hope it does. I really hope that D+D were thinking through the implications of changing a delicate spider's web (if you'll pardon the pun.) and have planned ahead for that rather than just writing the scene for some witty banter. I'm not overly hopeful tbh.

I think given what we know about how much planning, reading, and meeting these guys do for character arcs and the overall plot that they would attempt to avoid writing themselves into a corner where they have no choice but to do something so drastic that the plots become too different from the books. I'm somewhat optimistic since these guys know more about George's world than we do. I actually very much dislike their portrayal of Littlefinger thus far, but I think it will play out as I mentioned in the spoiler. Or at least I hope. If not I'm eagaerly awaiting your "I told you so!" post :P

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I think given what we know about how much planning, reading, and meeting these guys do for character arcs and the overall plot that they would attempt to avoid writing themselves into a corner where they have no choice but to do something so drastic that the plots become too different from the books. I'm somewhat optimistic since these guys know more about George's world than we do. I actually very much dislike their portrayal of Littlefinger thus far, but I think it will play out as I mentioned in the spoiler. Or at least I hope. If not I'm eagaerly awaiting your "I told you so!" post :P

I do worry though that when there's a cool actor/character or two involved they lose sight of things and fail to plan things out too far. The Arya/Tywin scenes, or the Ygritte scenes in S2 for example.

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I do worry though that when there's a cool actor/character or two involved they lose sight of things and fail to plan things out too far. The Arya/Tywin scenes, or the Ygritte scenes in S2 for example.

I feel you, and at first I thought why the hell are they doing this with Arya's arc, but watching those two interact was just awesome. I watched an interview with Charles Dance, Thronecast I think, where he's almost speechless about how great Maisie was, and that really pushed me over the edge that sometimes on TV you just need to let brilliant actors interact to make for better television. As long as they don't develop it into a completely different story I'm ok with them do things that are better visually at the expense of book faithfulness.

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The fact that I would have found excellent even without the Daenerys scene at the end speaks for itself.

As someone said, I really like TV Margaery. She has more drive than in the books, I think.

I'm ssaving up my 10s, though.

(Somehow I don't remember the Bran segment. Must have blunked it out.)

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Best of season 3 so far, no doubt about it. Margaery and Joffrey, Sansa and Margaery, Cersei and Tywin - awesome scenes, awesome actors. Lena Headey so very beautiful. And Sophie Turner's best performance ever! Great development in her acting skills since the first season, she was so convincing. She will be one of the big Hollywood stars of the future. Also the scene between Brienne and Jaime worked great, as well as Mormont's death and Dany's scene of course. Rates 9/10, thought long about giving it a 10.

What about the sorcerer in the box - was that in the books? How could I have missed that? Well, even if it wasn't, it adds an interesting touch to Varys' character.

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I see no reason not to give this one a 10: there was nothing about it that I didn't enjoy.

I really liked the fact that we got to see Jaime try to use a sword with his left hand; it made the loss of his sword hand mean more.

Natalie Dormer continues to steal the show this season.

Quite enjoyed the Varys vengeance scene; its interesting that the show continues to make Varys far more likeable than Martin did...

Beric was very well cast.

Astapor was colossal.

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With each episode, this season is getting better. I don't know why, but I used to dislike a lot of characters from GoT, but with time I either love them or not care at all. A lot of people pointed out brilliant scenes beetwen Tywin and Cersei, Margaery and Joffrey, Brienne and Jaime. And Varys - of course.

The part I didn't like was Mormont's death scene. He was an important person and his death was so... unmeaningful. I didn't want there to be an hour long speech, but come on...

And Deanarys. So far, I have observed that almost everyone loved that it. To me - it was just cheap and predictable. I didn't believe for a moment that she would sell her dragon for real. It could have been better.

Edited by Marchefa
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What about the sorcerer in the box - was that in the books? How could I have missed that? Well, even if it wasn't, it adds an interesting touch to Varys' character.

No, as far as I remember it was not in the books. I was quite surprised when it showed that. It definitely was a nice touch I'd say.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Absolutely loved the end scene, one of my favourite so far. Only 2 odd points, 1: there looked to be wayyy more than 8,000 unsullied in that last scene especially upon marching from the city.. 2: jorah mormont seemed stunned when he heard danaerys speak valyrian... he knew so why so shocked?

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