[Book Spoilers] EP304 Discussion

[Vhailorian]

But the big difference, and is a big difference, is that all those characters you mentioned, unlike Ros, are key characters, important for the story. They are not simply a part of it, they are the ones that pull the plot forward. In other words, they mattered. There's a reason why they are protected by plot armour, at least until the author decides different.

And anyway, my criticism of Ros is based mostly in terms of characterization. Unlike plot armoured characters like Sansa, Arya and Brienned Ros is too "modern" (and not in a good way) for this word:

- She is a common prostitute that can actually read and write. :shocked: In a world that doesn't exactly have public school districts and where most people are taught by maesters where on earth did she learn do do this? I doubt that LF keeps an education program for his "girls". If anything a man like LF benefits for having illiterate women at his service.

- She rose high based on her skils which are....???? No in depth characterization there. Let's assume she does have them. But what could they possibly be that would warrant her being paraded around the city- the capital city of Westeros- by Westeros' own maester of coin and future Lord Paramount of the Vale? :shocked: . Based on her obscure origins I would say that those skills, if they existed, they would be of a nature that works best in the shadows- in a similar way in which Varys' little birds operates.

ETA- The characters being compared to Ros are realistic for their setting. Ros is not.

I could sit down for a half an hour and invent a story or two about how and why Ros is who she is and fit it seamlessly into the context of GRRM's Westeros. I could also nitpick any number of book characterizations and how they don't blend as seamlessly with the world as they could. It would serve all the Ros haters right if D&D went to great lengths to explain and flesh out the character they detest so much. Then the complaint would be, "How can the spend so much time on making a non-canon character a major character?" It's not like they are focusing on her as a character...she is just a plot device that is useful in a multitude of ways.

To those who take issue with Ros the reading whore I would say, "Books and television normally focus on characters that are unusual or exceptional in some way...get used to it." One whore in thousands in Westeros can read without giving an explanation and suddenly everyone is the Song of Ice and Fire reality police...sheesh

[Moët]

The Hound was a member of the KG in the books, but not in the show. In season 1 Joffrey dismissed Barristan from the KG, but never said that Sandor would take his place. In season 2 Sandor gives his cloak to Sansa, but even though it was white, it was just his cloak, not a KG cloak because if you pay attention, through out the whole season 2 he never wears the KG armor.

He's KG in both. During the Blackwater episode, Tyrion specifically says, "You're King's Guard, Clegane." That's when The Hound says, "Fuck the King's Guard, fuck the city, and FUCK THE KING."

Edit: :ninja: I am so behind in this thread. :huh:

Edited April 22, 2013 by Moët

[TomBadgerlock]

I could sit down for a half an hour and invent a story or two about how and why Ros is who she is and fit it seamlessly into the context of GRRM's Westeros. I could also nitpick any number of book characterizations and how they don't blend as seamlessly with the world as they could. It would serve all the Ros haters right if D&D went to great lengths to explain and flesh out the character they detest so much. Then the complaint would be, "How can the spend so much time on making a non-canon character a major character?" It's not like they are focusing on her as a character...she is just a plot device that is useful in a multitude of ways.

To those who take issue with Ros the reading whore I would say, "Books and television normally focus on characters that are unusual or exceptional in some way...get used to it." One whore in thousands in Westeros can read without giving an explanation and suddenly everyone is the Song of Ice and Fire reality police...sheesh

Great post. Imagine an extremely intelligent man, born to the richest house in the land, who just happens to suffer from dwarfism. That's pretty damned unlikely.

[sertravisredbeard]

These discussions about "realistic" characters and their obviously implausible traits are cracking me up. It's a show and set of books about dragons, ice zombies, resurrected-by-fire immortals and magically face changing assassins. But apparently the notion of whores reading and women fighting are completely unbelievable. It's like GRRM and D&D don't take the fantasy genre seriously or something.

That sarcasm aside I enjoyed the episode.

I think the Dondarrion actor change works because this one looks older and more worn out, it's like each time he dies and comes back he actually ages. The duel should be great.

Edited April 22, 2013 by sertravisredbeard

[Vhailorian]

Because when the show is only on average 53 minutes long, and 3-4 minutes are used every episode on a character who shouldn't exist it adds up, and wastes almost a whole episode's worth of time that could be used on anything else.

Ros took no time away from anyone...Ros gave us more Varys time...This is nearly always the case with the characters she interacts with as Ros is never the focal point or the purpose of the scenes she takes part in.

[Jon Icefyre]

Wow that episode was fuckin epic! My three favorite quotes :

Theon: "My real father lost his head at Kings Landing...I made a choice, and I chose wrong."- God that almost made me cry lol

Tywin : "I don't mistrust you because you're a woman, I mistrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are."- It's about time someone put Cersei in her fucking place while calling her out for her horrible parenting skills. She can bitch about the Tyrells all she wants, but she created that monster Joffrey that the Tyrells are now fucking with by spoiling the living fuck out of him, and letting him do whatever he wanted with no consequences so this is just karma kickin her in the ass. And I know I'm suppose to hate the guy but Tywin is by far my favorite character of season three so far lol oh well. :ohwell:

Olenna Tyrell: "Another golden rose, how original? I eat from plates stamped with roses, I sleep in sheets embroidered with roses, I have a golden rose painted on my chamber pot, as if that makes it smell any better, roses are boring dear. Growing strong hah, the dullest words of any house. Winter is coming! Now that's memorable. We do not soe. Strong, strong those houses you watch out for, direwolfs and crackons fierce beasts, but a golden rose growing strong? Hah that strikes fear in the heart. :rolleyes: Look little flowers the spider in the garden, run along now, grow strong."- Haha god I absolutely adore this woman!! I could literally just sit in that garden and listen to her talk all day. :bowdown:

As for the rest of the episode RIP Commander Mormont. Anyone else notice the Tyrells are planning to marry Sansa to Loras instead of Willas? And btw my god Dany ended that episode like a fuckin badass!! :bowdown:

Edited April 22, 2013 by Jon Icefyre

[Blaer Dayle]

We know that Ros left the North in search of more opportunity. This tells me she was ambitious and had probably already reached the top of the heap at whatever brothel she had been working at. It's entirely possible that she was involved in finances there and learned to read to further her career.

You've made a valid point about Ros and her ambitions, I never thought about it from that angle. Still I don't believe that she could have gained that much influence, that quickly in King's Landing, which is my biggest gripe, and which nobody has adequately addressed enough to make me change my mind.

Ros took no time away from anyone...Ros gave us more Varys time...This is nearly always the case with the characters she interacts with as Ros is never the focal point or the purpose of the scenes she takes part in.

But she did take time, she was the focal point of the scene, that was my original problem, her scene diminished Varys by implying that she was better at his job than he is. Her scenes would be just more opportunities to see these characters if they weren't consistently written to remind me how great she is.

All that said, I actually like the actress playing Ros, and think she does well with what she is given, I believe her portrayal of the character, but she is sloppily written, and unrealistic.

I've said all I really care to say on Ros at this point, I'm obviously not going to change any minds, and you obviously aren't going to make me change mine. It seems that nobody wants to hear any more about it anyway, so I'll stop there.

Other than the whole Ros thing this was one of my favourite episodes so far, and I don't want the whole thing to be marred by this conversation about a 2 minute sequence.

On the comment just made about Tyrion, he is intelligent because he compensated for his physical problems by becoming intelligent, because he felt like he was the least important member of his house due to his dwarfism. I see nothing unrealistic there. In fact his character is the most realistic of the series to me at least. All that intelligence doesn't matter anyway since nobody takes him seriously due to his condition.

These discussions about "realistic" characters and their obviously implausible traits. It's a show and set of books about dragons, ice zombies, resurrected-by-fire immortals and magically face changing assassins. But apparently the notion of whores reading and women fighting are completely unbelievable. It's like GRRM and D&D don't take the fantasy genre seriously or something.

That sarcasm aside I enjoyed the episode.

Magic in this world was long thought to be dead, and has only come back with the dragons. I'm perfectly fine with that.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Blair Dale

[Newstar]

There was one huge gaping plot hole in this episode which really bugged me.

Varys knows that Littlefinger is heading off to woo Lysa Arryn. He is doing so on Tywin's instructions, to bring her into the fold. However, Varys is assuming that Littlefinger is banking on marrying Sansa Stark. Littlefinger can hardly marry both of them, though. Does he think Littlefinger's just going to renege on his promise to bring Lysa Arryn into the fold and marry Sansa Stark instead?

[Vhailorian]

What really gets me about the Cersei/Tywin scene was the crowd pleasing line of "You are not as smart as you think you are." We as book readers know that Cersei eventually delves into paranoid madness and makes rash, idiotic decisions because of this. But in THIS moment with Tywin she is absolutely correct that House Tyrell is plotting and angling for the throne in their own subtle way. Cersei is right to be wary of Margaery and Olenna because they end up being instrumental in assassinating her son. Joffrey's death then drives Cersei over the edge and she becomes a truly wicked character, but in THIS moment she still has her head in the game and she sees the Tyrells for what they are. It's Tywin who cannot see the forest for the trees in this matter. The Tyrells might be as devious as the Lannisters but they are just as ambitious and scheming. Just in a different way.

Heh...all too true. :) I laughed at the because of the supreme irony rather than the comment itself. I like that a reader and non-reader could be equally amused by this line for very different reasons.

[Moët]

Gods!!!! With all the great things this episode had, all anyone can talk about for 2 plus pages is Ros hatred? I normally don't get my hackles up about people's opinions, which of course they have every right to voice, but Seven bloody Hells have I grown weary of hearing the same old Ros complaints on these boards for 2+ seasons.

Every time the writers give her a line people find something in it to complain about: "The writers make her seem smarter than Varys..." "Ros is naked too much..." Ros is only good for being naked and she isn't naked enough..." "The actress is terrible..." "Ros isn't even a book character..." Maybe I will compile a list of the 1000 most common complaints about Ros and number them so the persistent complaints can read more like...Ros #768...Handy shorthand so I can get to fresh and interesting opinions rather than stale ones dating back to the pilot episode.

This is coming from someone who is much closer to being a book purist than a show changing apologist. I didn't like Ros either...but I learned to live with it rather than beating everyone who will listen or read over the head with the same complaints over and over. I learned to accept the role and have come to like Esme Bianco. Furthermore, she has played a valuable and, at times necessary, role in the show in a number of ways. The way D&D have chosen to adapt the show, right or wrong, made Ros, or a character like her, necessary.

Sorry for the angry rant...but I stand by everything in it, and I needed to vent it. I am far from a prolific poster, but I do spend a good deal of time on these boards and having to sort through the same rants for pages at a time for years is getting real old.

These discussions about "realistic" characters and their obviously implausible traits are cracking me up. It's a show and set of books about dragons, ice zombies, resurrected-by-fire immortals and magically face changing assassins. But apparently the notion of whores reading and women fighting are completely unbelievable. It's like GRRM and D&D don't take the fantasy genre seriously or something.

:agree: :bowdown:

Edited April 22, 2013 by Moët

[TomBadgerlock]

"In that urn are the ashes of Aerion Targaryen. Aerion Brightflame they called him. He thought drinking wildfire would turn him into dragon...he was wrong".

I can't get over how brilliant that was. It's delivered with such enthusiasm and delight. It's so perversely awesome.

[Vhailorian]

But she did take time, she was the focal point of the scene, that was my original problem, her scene diminished Varys by implying that she was better at his job than he is. Her scenes would be just more opportunities to see these characters if they weren't consistently written to remind me how great she is.

This will be my last word on the matter as well, as my whole reason for jumping into this was to try and end it. (Poorly played me) :) The point of the scene was not Ros or showing that she was better at Varys's job than Varys...the point of the scene was to inform Varys of Littlefinger's possible plan to spirit Sansa away from King's Landing.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

"In that urn are the ashes of Aerion Targaryen. Aerion Brightflame they called him. He thought drinking wildfire would turn him into dragon...he was wrong".

I can't get over how brilliant that was. It's delivered with such enthusiasm and delight. It's so perversely awesome.

that whole scene was great, when he was all giggly over telling the story of one of the Targs being eaten in front of her son i was like "you twisted douche"

[Blaer Dayle]

This will be my last word on the matter as well, as my whole reason for jumping into this was to try and end it. (Poorly played me) :) The point of the scene was not Ros or showing that she was better at Varys's job than Varys...the point of the scene was to inform Varys of Littlefinger's possible plan to spirit Sansa away from King's Landing.

Fair enough, but I've given my problems with the scene and will say no more, I'm only replying to clear the air, I don't have any problem with you or anyone I was debating with, I just wanted to give my reasoning for my one complaint of the episode.

Anyway, Yeah Jack Gleeson was amazing as always, I love his insanity, I knew he was insane reading the books, but the show has brought it to a whole new level.

This episode was peppered with fan service, Tywins admonishment of Cersei, Olenna criticising her house symbols, Theon saying his father died in King's landing, and Danaerys truly becoming a conqueror in the last scene. One of my favourite episodes of the series thus far, and the best this season without question.

[Cat in the Rafters]

Re: Pod's performance. Before his scene with the girls, Littlefinger mentions to Tyrion how A.) Tyrion owes Pod a favor for saving his life, and B.) Littlefinger owes Tyrion a favor (I think for saving the city?). Maybe Littlefinger decided that the easiest way to be rid of this troublesome debt is by letting Pod have his first night on the house? Sure, Tyrion could gnash his teeth about it, saying that he never agreed to it, but a favor's a favor, and now Littlefinger's slate is clean.

On topic: I am completley in love with Natalie Dormer's characterization of Margaery. After seeing this ep right on the heels of finding her deleted scene with Loras on Youtube... this Margaery is a million times more interesting to me than the Marg in the books.

Another favorite bit was Sansa praying at the weirwood stump. THE SYMBOLISM. (I can't remember if the heart tree is a stump in the books.) All my feels, Sansa dove.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Cat in the Rafters

[Dove]

that whole scene was great, when he was all giggly over telling the story of one of the Targs being eaten in front of her son i was like "you twisted douche"

Hahaha. C'mon now Joffrey is just enthusiastic about history. He's a scholar. He enjoys scholarly pursuits.

TV Joff really is much more fun as a character and villain than Book Joff. I was cracking up at most of that scene.

[ghost of Harrenhall]

Cat's face at the end of the tree shot, looked like it was dead.

can't wait for stone heart.

[Vhailorian]

This may very well have been my favorite episode in the series thus far, though I need another viewing or two to be sure. One thing I can say definitively is that I nitpicked this episode less than any in recent memory. I managed to suffer from none of my usual "But in the book..." thoughts and comparisons. The Brienne "you're acting like a woman" comment did hit my ear strangely...but on further reflection I believe she was simply playing to what she knew Jamie would react to. The only other moment of strangeness for me was that the Bran scene seemed out of place in this episode...not a bad scene, but it was drowned out by the rest of the episode in my opinion. Also, I cant remember who originally posted it, but Cat in the Bran scene did bring Lady Stoneheart to my mind as well.

The "Dracarys" scene was...just...well...I won't embarrass myself by describing my reaction while I am tired enough to be totally honest. I'll simply say that it was more amazing than I could have hoped. :)

[greywindsrage]

They should have cut from Jaime to Bran. It was very powerful when they did that a few back with Catelyn and Jon.

Makes perfect sense. As much as I'm a fan of Jaime , I still believe that it was karma for what he did to Bran.

[teemo]

Strangely enough, I really liked the Tywin/Cersei scene, and I'm usually not a big fan of the invented scenes. It worked great after last week watching him emotionally beat down Tyrion...shows what an ass he is. And also, the line about her not being as smart as she thinks she is is comforting to me (I thought they were going to turn Cersei into someone much smarter than she really is) and also some good foreshadowing. Not to mention, ironic considering that she's actually correct in this case about the Tyrells. And funny too, because she was the one insulting Tyrion's intelligence earlier in the season. All of those letters that Tywin was writing had me interested, although he's always doing that.

I think the episode actually fared better without The Tullys, Starks, and Stannis...the characters people complain the most about being butchered (Robb, Talisa, Cat, Stannis). Shae wasn't in it either.