[Book Spoilers] EP304 Discussion

[Sun]

The farther we get into this season, the more I think both the Red and Purple weddings are going to happen this year.

I doubt it. I think Sansa's wedding will take priority for Tywin and delay PW till next season. But we'll see.

[cybobbie]

Simply loved the episode, missed some things that I was hoping for, like Sam final scene with the Old Bear, but despite the changes the episode was still awesome.

The Sansa/Loras proposal won't last long, and Tywin may put Loras in the KG specifically to prevent the marriage, then set up Sansa/Tyrion.

I guess that this would be a good way to prevent the wedding, but still not sure if they will use it.

I'm surprised so many are upset with Brienne.

We had earlier this season Jaime calling her too much man for Renly, and IIRC constantly harassing her for being a woman and a warrior, as if being a woman is so contrary to being a warrior.

So she throws it back in his face.

Or, that's how I interpreted it.

I second that, I mean I didn't see the scene at all as Brienne pointing out that women are weak, but as a way to reply to Jaime's previous comments on women. I really love in the show almost as much I did in the books the relationship between Jaime and Brienne.

[creekdweller]

ros could replace jeyne poole

[SeanF]

She was definitely not born a whore, and it could be, but normal peasants usually don't know how to read.

Not many people in Ros' position would know how to read and write, but it's certainly not out of the question. There were and are people who are functionally literate, because they need to study accounts/inventories etc., even if they never read for pleasure. If she's running a brothel, it would be a useful skill.

Ros is highly ambitious, and might well have paid someone at Winterfell to teach her to read and write.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

She is a whore in a fantasy universe. She also doesn't fuck 24/7. She has other time in the day to learn to read. Perhaps the Madame she worked for in King's Landing taught her. Or do you think that someone who ran a business like a brothel would actually be illiterate?

The stubborness on the ROS CAN'T READ thought process is baffling.

To be honest I've seen cases of people who own stores and don't know how to read. Don't see why you couldn't administer a brothel. You use numbers, not letters.

Seeing as she was in Winterfell all that time, maybe she was a "favourite" of Maester Luwin and he taught her to read as part payment... ;)

:lol: :lol: :lol: Where is that like button everybody is always talking about?

This explanation I can believe. Congratulations, you're the only one that's changed my mind. Now I don't have any problem with Ros knowing how to read.

[Inceptor]

Every man in the world wants to have the skills of Podrick :P..... dont deny it ....

Anyway as a guy who hasnt read any of the books i rly like this show , even sometimes they give up some battle or name i rly dont know what is it as i never saw it or read about it.

I will keep watching because of the dwarf , since Ned is dead and he is the only alive person in the show that i admire.

Btw idk how it will end but

Whitewalkers>Men

Dragons>Whitewalkers

I asume dragons will burn some whitewalker asses since its their only weekness :) , but what do i know i never read the books :) , i think in some way its better not knowing what could and would happen in the next episodes

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Not many people in Ros' position would know how to read and write, but it's certainly not out of the question. There were and are people who are functionally literate, because they need to study accounts/inventories etc., even if they never read for pleasure. If she's running a brothel, it would be a useful skill.

Ros is highly ambitious, and might well have paid someone at Winterfell to teach her to read and write.

I apologize, I think my post didn't explain very well what I meant. I already explained better.

When I said common peasant I was referring to Ros' father. I agree that Ros is not just a common peasant because obviously she is ambitious. Otherwise she wouldn't even have moved to KL.

[Honey Badger]

However, I still think they're showing Brienne's humanity. When Jaime is being beaten up, she tries to help but she's stopped and she's horrified and sad at what's happening to him. And as harsh as what she said to him was, it sounded like tough love. She's puzzled by his actions- lying to save her whenever he was threatening to kill her himself not so long ago, but she doesn't think highly of him and it shows, however she's humane enough to want to him to pull through. Also, practically speaking, she needs him to be alive otherwise her task is fruitless. I think show Brienne is naive in the way she sees the world and people as good or bad, but also quite pragmatic. She's more grown up.

Jaime is a little complicated. He has great guilt over watching the Starks get gutted and cooked alive by Aerys with him just standing there. There's no problem in killing if there's a sword in your hand and it's a fair fight. I think Brienne has the same guilt over Renly and wants to see Jaime given fair treatment.

[SelanSnow]

Exactly they cycle through whores in the books, because no one whore is able to gain any prominence in Westeros due to the profession being looked down upon. Anyone who uses whores does not respect them, or casts them aside when they are no longer wanted. It shows the lack of empathy the characters have for women who have lived hard lives, rather than showing how anyone can make a name for themselves in Westeros as long as they're willing to get naked.

Alayaya ran her brothel, didn't she?

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Alayaya ran her brothel, didn't she?

Nope. Chataya did. Alayaya's mother.

[Lady Lea]

Anyone else annoyed by the remoulding of Brienne into a badass bitch?

The latest addition to this is her telling Jaime he sounds 'like a bloody woman'. ASoS has her saying 'are you so craven?' which was the perfect way to bring him back to life. Show!Brienne called him a coward but it wasn't the same at all because she was just insulting him.

I agree completely. This show also gave Arya that classic line "most girls are stupid". Sure. Because for Brienne and Arya to be "cool women" they have to show they are not like the rest of us simpering weaklings. "Women suck!!! LOLZ I am so much better because I'm not like them! Please like me!"

Brienne in the books has nothing but respect for women. She talks about a woman's courage and says dying in childbirth is just like dying in battle, except no one sings about the women. Brienne is great. Show!Brienne is just a reflection of D&D's sexism.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Every man in the world wants to have the skills of Podrick :P..... dont deny it ....

Anyway as a guy who hasnt read any of the books i rly like this show , even sometimes they give up some battle or name i rly dont know what is it as i never saw it or read about it.

I will keep watching because of the dwarf , since Ned is dead and he is the only alive person in the show that i admire.

Btw idk how it will end but

Whitewalkers>Men

Dragons>Whitewalkers

I asume dragons will burn some whitewalker asses since its their only weekness :) , but what do i know i never read the books :) , i think in some way its better not knowing what could and would happen in the next episodes

You haven't read the books??? Dude what are you doing in this thread??!! Get out of here before you get totally spoiled! You should go to the No Spoilers discussion. But anyways I'm glad you really enjoy the show. You should read the books. They are totally awesome!!

[PatrickStormborn]

I agree completely. This show also gave Arya that classic line "most girls are stupid". Sure. Because for Brienne and Arya to be "cool women" they have to show they are not like the rest of us simpering weaklings. "Women suck!!! LOLZ I am so much better because I'm not like them! Please like me!"

Brienne in the books has nothing but respect for women. She talks about a woman's courage and says dying in childbirth is just like dying in battle, except no one sings about the women. Brienne is great. Show!Brienne is just a reflection of D&D's sexism.

Yeah and Show!Brienne is already quite radically altered from the book version. She's been turned into an embittered, fairly ruthless killer, whereas in the books she was naive, innocent, feminine, and incredibly awkward. I think D&D missed all that and just ran with "female warrior".

[Akal Colzet]

I'm sure some whores in Westeros can read even if it's not the norm. Considering we have telepathy and dragons I don't reallt feel it's stretching suspension of disbelief all that much.

[Blue Steel]

What is Varys up to?

The show makes it look like he suggested the Sansa/Loras match. Wouldn't a Tyrell-Stark alliance work against his plans? If the Tyrells are allied with the Lannisters and the Starks, then wouldn't that make it harder for Aegon to conquer?

Unless he knows that the Lannisters will find out about the Tyrell plans and marry Sansa to Tyrion instead, which would somehow benefit Aegon. That is some next level shit right there if true.

Edit: Nevermind, there's already a thread on this in this forum.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Blue Steel

[JMJ]

Overall, awesome episode. My random observations/thoughts:

- Mormont's death was badass and sad. When he spat up blood and realized he was going down, that was really sad, but I liked how he spat it into Rast's face.

- Sam and Gilly running away from Craster's and Mormont laying dying means very likely there will be no dying wish of Jeor to forgive Jorah. That's too bad.

- Ramsay's reveal was excellent. That evil grin was chilling!

- Tywin's writing, writing writing. I wonder if non-readers will realize the foreshadowing - this is clearly Tywin planning the Red Wedding.

- Dany's sack of Astapor - that was executed perfectly. I can barely imagine the show doing a better job with that (short of having an unlimited budget and 8000 extras). I wonder if this means the show's opening credits will now show Yunkai instead of Astapor.

- Started another thread about this, but what's up with sorcerer-in-a-box? I don't know if they plan this to be a one-time deal, or if it's going to be a recurring and significant change to the storyline?

- Did not like the Bran dream scene. Seemed too short to have been needed in this episode. Sure, we know Bran is having dreams. Perhaps there's a foreshadowing of Lady Stoneheart, but that could have all happened in either E03 or E05.

- RE: Ros. First, I swear Ros-hate will become an internet meme. I don't like the character, not because of the deviation from the books, but because she so far has just simply not been very interesting. Perhaps she's just a vehicle to have LF or Varys insight, but that would be lame. My theory is, like some others have suggested, that she will be Dontos. This was perhaps foreshadowed in E03 when she says to Shae to watch out for LF with Sansa. I highly doubt she herself will substitute for Jeyne/(F)Arya. She's too old and no one in the North would believe it.

[ShigellaSand]

On the whole, a brilliant episode. Sure, a couple of minor things bugged me a little bit, but they were just that - minor.

Well played with Theon's regrets, I thought. Isn't it so often the case that it's when people are down and out that they start not only second-guessing themselves, but also thinking about the ones who could've helped them if only... I kinda wished the scene hadn't been so very dark, so I could've seen his face better as he talked about Balon and Robb and Ned and the miller's boys - but then it soon became apparent why it had to be so dark in there.

Great Jaime/Brienne scenes. Another step towards making show viewers see another side to Jaime, feel for him, despite everything. The look on Brienne's face when he started swaying in the saddle, when they "watered" him, when they kicked him as he was done... Powerful stuff. And yeah, maybe she would've chosen her words better if they'd been intended for a larger audience, but she was speaking to Jaime, so she said what she thought would work on him. Made sense to me.

Tywin and Cersei, simply brilliant. All these Lannisters play so wonderfully off each other. Their messed-up family dynamics are a joy to behold. Such a gold mine for character building, and it drives the plot so that nothing they do to each other really surprises you when you look back, even if you didn't see it coming beforehand. And of course, Joffrey is the absolutely perfect person to drop some background info about the more gruesome aspects of Targaryen history. And Margaery is so sneaky while looking so innocent, knowing exactly what to say to each person to make them do what she wants, whether it's Joffrey or Sansa.

Varys, and the Queen of Thorns, in a scene together. That alone would've made me like this episode. From "May I sit?" "No," all the way to "It seems rather obvious to me," that scene was pure gold.

They led up to the Mycah accusation very well, I think, what with the talk of dead children and the Hound rightly pointing out he wasn't responsible for them. Beric calling Arya the bravest of them all seemed a little heavy-handed, but I'll allow it since it didn't cost him anything to say so, and since he did respect her father a great deal, so he might be willing to indulge a young girl who's been through a lot in the past year.

Craster's. Ah, Mormont. And so your watch is ended. I did like the little detail about him asking where Bonnen was from - being a good leader doesn't automatically mean he can remember everything about every single man under him. Dolorous Edd got in a comment or two, as well, and Sam got to be an infatuated boy with his foot firmly stuck in his mouth around Gilly. Asking what the boy's name was, really? Talk about rubbing salt in wounds! Poor sweet thoughtless Sam, so well-meaning. But ah, Mormont. You will be missed.

Dracarys! There was a little moment there when Dany asked if the Unsullied would follow her as free men, and they started beating their spears on the ground, where Barristan and Jorah exchanged looks. Just a look, but it said so much. At a moment like that, their differences didn't mean anything. It was all about Dany. Wonderful end to a wonderful episode.

[Tyrion4President]

I thought they were foreshadowing the showdown between Tywin and Joffrey, when Joff answers back and says that Robert won all the battles and Tywin was hiding during the Rebellion. Or some variation of that we will see in the tv show.

This scene in the book got me soo hyped up. I can only imagine how much energy tywin had to use to keep himself from slappin the sh*t out of joffrey. IMO this is when they realize they have completely lost control of Joff

[MyLittleDirewolf]

I agree completely. This show also gave Arya that classic line "most girls are stupid". Sure. Because for Brienne and Arya to be "cool women" they have to show they are not like the rest of us simpering weaklings. "Women suck!!! LOLZ I am so much better because I'm not like them! Please like me!"

Brienne in the books has nothing but respect for women. She talks about a woman's courage and says dying in childbirth is just like dying in battle, except no one sings about the women. Brienne is great. Show!Brienne is just a reflection of D&D's sexism.

I hear ya. GRRM wrote some incredible female characters in ASOIAF. It's a shame they aren't translating well onto the show. It seems like they are simply going for the BAMF factor and not complex characters who are not wishing they were born men (Cersei being the exception, she does wish she had been born a man in both 'verses) or have a low opinion of other women. I miss the Mormont women, but who knows what D&D would do with them.

[jamesrivers]

While I'm all for Ros having the same fate as Dontos did. I think we are going to see Dontos again. I recall a recent interview with David and Dan and they mentioned we haven't seen the last of Dontos. So, being a little purist to the books, I would love to see Dontos take part in Sansa's escape of King's Landing.