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The Hound was very clearly placed in the kings guard in the first season when Ser Barristan was dismissed, also he was shown in the white cloak multiple times including when he used it to cover up Sansa, which other people have also mentioned.

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And she's been with Littlefinger for over a year. Not enough time to learn how to read?

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't she supposed to learn how to fuck and please the clients? not read. And if LF would threaten her just for crying and making him lose money and time, then I don't think that he would want her to lose time learning to read.

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The thing with "realistic" is - If a Song of Ice and Fire was as realistic as some people claim it is/has to be, Arya would have been dead in one week, Brienne would've been raped thrice already, and so would Sansa. When you do realize the thickness of plot armr around certain characters, and just the sheer amount of "coincidences" that brings characters together (Like the Hound and Arya, Jorah and Tyrion, Catelyn and Tyrion, so on and so forth), claims of "realism" seem to get a bit... Ridiculous.

But the big difference, and is a big difference, is that all those characters you mentioned, unlike Ros, are key characters, important for the story. They are not simply a part of it, they are the ones that pull the plot forward. In other words, they mattered. There's a reason why they are protected by plot armour, at least until the author decides different.

And anyway, my criticism of Ros is based mostly in terms of characterization. Unlike plot armoured characters like Sansa, Arya and Brienned Ros is too "modern" (and not in a good way) for this word:

- She is a common prostitute that can actually read and write. :shocked: In a world that doesn't exactly have public school districts and where most people are taught by maesters where on earth did she learn do do this? I doubt that LF keeps an education program for his "girls". If anything a man like LF benefits for having illiterate women at his service.

- She rose high based on her skils which are....???? No in depth characterization there. Let's assume she does have them. But what could they possibly be that would warrant her being paraded around the city- the capital city of Westeros- by Westeros' own maester of coin and future Lord Paramount of the Vale? :shocked: . Based on her obscure origins I would say that those skills, if they existed, they would be of a nature that works best in the shadows- in a similar way in which Varys' little birds operates.

ETA- The characters being compared to Ros are realistic for their setting. Ros is not.

Edited by Winterfellian

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Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't she supposed to learn how to fuck and please the clients? not read. And if LF would threaten her just for crying and making him lose money and time, then I don't think that he would want her to lose time learning to read.

Umm... except that for someone who is a master of manipulation, spying, etc reading is a pretty integral skill.

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So what's more realistic: Ros being able to read or Brienne being one of the best warriors in the world?

The whole point of Brienne is that GRRM wanted to deconstruct the trope of the women warrior and show a more realistic woman warrior than some waif that fights in a bikini. She's tall, she's brawny, and yeah, I buy that. We don't know if she's one of the best warriors in the world because the book never says that. She's good in melees but has never been to a real war iirc.

Ros' entire point was getting a naked chick in the show. Her social rise is ridiculous and her being able to read is just laughable.

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Brienne is akin to having a real life woman be able to beat up Anderson Silva in a fight. Not gonna happen. The best woman MMA fighter, Ronda Rousey, wouldn't be able to beat a single male professional MMA fighter. And what's so unrealistic about prostitutes being able to read and write? There are bound to be high class whores, just like there are in real life. There were many in history.

Arya is a tomboy; and, tomboys are real. But that doesn't make her character realistic. There are definitely arguments to be made against Ros. But realism isn't one of them.

I don't think the level of realism when measured against the real world is an important criterion in the books; and thus, it shouldn't be an important criterion in the tv show either. As long as they are realistic when it pertains to the world that GRRM created, then it's fine. And in a world with characters like Lyanna, the Wolf Maidens of Winterfell and the Sand Snakes, Arya is fine. But so is Ros. She can exist because there are other smart women in her world.

Brienne is not someone who fights in a specialised fistfight with men, she has been trained in swordplay and is decent at it. There are plenty of women fencers in the world who can hold their own against men in their sport.

Ros is established as a low class whore in the first episode and in the span of roughly a year has become one of the most pivotal people in the political landscape of Westeros, this is not a realistic character evolution. Characters like Varys and Littlefinger have devoted their lives to this and are only a step ahead of her now. If she possessed this intelligence before now she would have been working her way up in King's Landing long before the show began.

There are smart whores in Westeros, but they mostly exist in the books and have been cut in the show to favour Ros, who as I've already shown should not be as important as she is in the show.

And just out of curiosity, what about Arya do you find unrealistic? I'm not criticising that, and if you can give me a reason why you find her unrealistic it would help your argument a little. I find her to be realistic, but I'm not a 12 year old girl so I'm not really entitled to make that call.

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Also wanted to add loved the sadistic angle of Varys torturing the sorceror, as well as Marg's scenes. She absolutely plays stupid ass Sansa and stupid ass Joffrey. Cersei sees it, but Tywin hates her incompetence and pride so much that he doesn't take the warning seriously. Loved all of it.

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Loved the episode, maybe I'm not just as nitpicky.

I loved the quote by Varys on Littlefinger being the most dangerous man in Westeros. Seeing the master of whispers clearly uneasy about this little pauper noble from the fingers. It's even better if you know what exactly he's going to do later on.

Lastly, Daenerys' crowning moment of awesome was handled well.

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Enjoying this season, but the format is kind of losing me. Last season, it seemed we took "breaks" from various areas of the land and episodes might focus on 2-3 areas. Now, we're cramming every single area in during every single episode (for the most part). I'd much rather spend a solid 15-20 minutes of total time with Mance (for example), then only get 5 minutes because that "section of the world" is competing with 7 other storylines/characters.

I feel like I can't really get submersed with the exception of Jaime and Brienne. For some reason, those pieces are working.

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The whole point of Brienne is that GRRM wanted to deconstruct the trope of the women warrior and show a more realistic woman warrior than some waif that fights in a bikini. She's tall, she's brawny, and yeah, I buy that. We don't know if she's one of the best warriors in the world because the book never says that. She's good in melees but has never been to a real war iirc.

Ros' entire point was getting a naked chick in the show. Her social rise is ridiculous and her being able to read is just laughable.

Agree with you. Besides, Brienne has trained almost all her life with Ser Goodwin, the master-at-arms of her castle.

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Are people really complaining about Ros being able to read/write? Geez. It's fantasy. Grounded in a degree of realism yet, but the top hooker of the mastermind of Westeros being able to read isn't that big a breach in realism. She's likely going to get Dontos'd (even though Dontos has appeared in the series), which would be a good end for her. Though we won't see that until next year.

Enjoying this season, but the format is kind of losing me. Last season, it seemed we took "breaks" from various areas of the land and episodes might focus on 2-3 areas. Now, we're cramming every single area in during every single episode (for the most part). I'd much rather spend a solid 15-20 minutes of total time with Mance (for example), then only get 5 minutes because that "section of the world" is competing with 7 other storylines/characters.

I feel like I can't really get submersed with the exception of Jaime and Brienne. For some reason, those pieces are working.

Now this I agree with. I think the episode should focus on 3 storylines tops per episode.

I think it has to do with billing/contracts more then anything, as the series regulars need to appear in a certain amount of episodes.

Edited by HouseHarrison

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But the big difference, and is a big difference, is that all those characters you mentioned, unlike Ros, are key characters, important for the story. They are not simply a part of it, they are the ones that pull the plot forward. In other words, they mattered. There's a reason why they are protected by plot armour, at least until the author decides different.

The baseline is: Ros is not from the books. Ros shouldn't matter. Every minute spent in Ros is a minute a book character doesn't appear in.

I understand it. I just don't see any motive to rage on about it instead of just shrugging it off.

And anyway, my criticism of Ros is based mostly in terms of characterization. Unlike plot armoured characters like Sansa, Arya and Brienned Ros is too "modern" (and not in a good way) for this word:

- She is a common prostitute that can actually read and write. :shocked: In a world that doesn't exactly have public school districts and where most people are taught by maesters where on earth did she learn do do this? I doubt that LF keeps an education program for his "girls". If anything a man like LF benefits for having illiterate women at his service.

- She rose high based on her skils which are....???? No in depth characterization there. Let's assume she does have them. But what could they possibly be that would warrant her being paraded around the city- the capital city of Westeros- by Westeros' own maester of coinand fiture Lord Paramount of the Vale? :shocked: . Based on her obscure origins I would say that those skills, if they existed, they would be of a nature that works best in the shadows- in a similar way in which Varys' little birds operates.

1 - Did anyone entertained the thought Ros could've been a septa, or a lady in waiting or something that just became a whore through a series of unfortunate circumstances? That Ros (over)heard Littlefinger reading the list and is just pretending to know how to read? That Littlefinger is putting her up to it? I mean, yeah, I know some of these are far-fetched (Except the last one) but I'm more willing to try to enjoy the episode than to rage on about two minutes of banter. And to avoid taking things at face value.

2 - Everyone knows that Littlefinger is a pimp. The court, at least. The common people, seeing a lady in the Master of Coin's arm? Even those that have met Ros wouldn't recognize her. So parading her around is not that much of a problem. And Ros could have skills in reading people.

My point is: This whole thing seems just people looking for excuses to complain about a character they don't like simply for not being in the book and for being used for titillation every now and then, and not actual grievances. Sorry for the honesty. I bow out of this discussion.

Edited by Ser_Patreck

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So wow that was just amazing, the show keeps uping the awesome. Just a few things i want to point out.

- The Sept just looked amazing

- Love the Marg playing Joff like a fiddle and her scenes with Sansa, oh man Natalie Dormer is just knocking it out of the Park

- Jamie and Breinne are as good as always (love they kept the hand around the neck)

- "Boy" fake out was cool but i loved that sick twisted smile he put on, shows whats to come

- The mutiny was played well no complaints hear, although i wish the Old Bear killed the prick Rast before he died.

- Brotherhood interaction with Sandor was good stuff all around

- Tywin and his damn letters........and the chat with Cersi was good stuff

- Dany oh Dany it was all amazing, the visuals, the score, just wow

Some questionable moments:

- Having Bran in the episode for a second felt out of place and random

- Loras and Sansa? is he not Kingsgaurd? not that i care all that much no need to name another Tyrell brother no one knows and have it all dashed in an episode or two anyway.

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The Hound was very clearly placed in the kings guard in the first season when Ser Barristan was dismissed, also he was shown in the white cloak multiple times including when he used it to cover up Sansa, which other people have also mentioned.

They never said that The Hound would take his place, check the scene again if you don't believe me. He was shown wearing a white cloak, but not the armor of the KG. The only moment that I remember, and thanks to the people that pointed that out to me, when it's said that Sandor is a member of the KG is during the Battle of Blackwater.

ETA: So it was explained, but not very clear IMO.

Edited by Darth Zyroth

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1 - Did anyone entertained the thought Ros could've been a septa, or a lady in waiting or something that just became a whore through a series of unfortunate circumstances?

She was in/around Winterfell when Sansa was born. Let's put Ros' age at about 25 (being generous here). She would be living around Winterfell since she was at least 12 then. I don't think there are many 12-year-old septas or ladies in waiting. She's just a peasant who became a whore.

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Agree with you. Besides, Brienne has trained almost all her life with Ser Goodwin, the master-at-arms of her castle.

Training all her life with Ser Goodwin is just a plot contrivance in order to deflect from the illogical. She still would likely get crushed by an average swordsman if it was real life.

And just out of curiosity, what about Arya do you find unrealistic? I'm not criticising that, and if you can give me a reason why you find her unrealistic it would help your argument a little. I find her to be realistic, but I'm not a 12 year old girl so I'm not really entitled to make that call.

Actually, Arya is my second favorite character; and I'm even less of an authority on whether Arya's internal monologue is realistic since I'm not even a girl. Arya is unrealistic because there is no way that Arya would have survived for that long on her own during a bloody war. It's a plot contrivance that's written well.

Anyways, I don't think realism is important. Realism exists at the expense of plot.

Edited by Blue Steel

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