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I always hated Theon in the books, but that one simple sentence he spoke in the show made me think that maybe what he went through in the Dreadfort wasn't what he deserved.

Theon, both in the books and in the show, is pure tragedy to me. A guy who is taken as a boy as ward to a family your family hates, grows to admire, if not love his ward family. He is then conflicted about his family loyalties, which costs him dearly in the end. I am fully expecting a massive redemption story with Theon in TWOW (or beyond).

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I hated Theon in the second book. However, once they introduce him as reek and you find out what all happened to him you just feel really sorry for him. In many ways, his is a fate worse than death.

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Theon, both in the books and in the show, is pure tragedy to me. A guy who is taken as a boy as ward to a family your family hates, grows to admire, if not love his ward family. He is then conflicted about his family loyalties, which costs him dearly in the end. I am fully expecting a massive redemption story with Theon in TWOW (or beyond).

:agree: Theon expected to be treated as the prodigal son and heir by Balon, Asha/Yara and the Ironborn. When that didn't happen, he was understandably desperate to earn their acceptance. This led him to make terrible decisions that still failed to earn the Greyjoys' respect and support. Now he has had time to reflect on the values and ethics of the Greyjoys vs. the Starks and begin to rethink.

I dislike Theon's character intensely and think he deserves harsh punishment, but no one deserves to be tortured by a sadist like Ramsay. OMG. As brandino said, it truly is a fate worse than death. An upcoming redemption storyline by GRRM would be an awesome conclusion.

Edited by SummerSong

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Is anybody else slightly concerned with how many new scenes have been added in? Most of them have been incredibly done and obviously they don't want the show to be exactly the same as the books, but I feel like they're taking a lot of the mystery out of characters like Littlefinger, Varys and Olenna, who we still don't know a lot about at the end of the fifth book

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Theon, both in the books and in the show, is pure tragedy to me. A guy who is taken as a boy as ward to a family your family hates, grows to admire, if not love his ward family. He is then conflicted about his family loyalties, which costs him dearly in the end. I am fully expecting a massive redemption story with Theon in TWOW (or beyond).

:agree: Theon expected to be treated as the prodigal son and heir by Balon, Asha/Yara and the Ironborn. When that didn't happen, he was understandably desperate to earn their acceptance. This led him to make terrible decisions that still failed to earn the Greyjoys' respect and support. Now he has had time to reflect on the values and ethics of the Greyjoys vs. the Starks and begin to rethink.

I dislike Theon's character intensely and think he deserves harsh punishment, but no one deserves to be tortured by a sadist like Ramsay. OMG. As brandino said, it truly is a fate worse than death. An upcoming redemption storyline by GRRM would be an awesome conclusion.

if Jon Snow becomes the Night King then Theon will become Hand to the Night's King (bran will intervene at his trial to save his life/prevent stannis & asha from killing him & make sure he takes the black & ends up as jons loyal servent to make up for all past transgressions against starks i.e betrayal of robb). Jon Targaryen & Theon Grejoy lay waste to westeros with their undead army covering the world in darkness/endless winter for what is dead may never die but rises again harder & stronger... jon is dead... what will he be when he is reborn?

Edited by theREALjonsnow

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The character of Daenarys does not become a leader until around this time, at least not as confident. This is a thread for those who have read the books, so I hope I am not spoiling this for you, but she is not nearly as confident in herself as they portray until now. And sorry to say it, by the time we reach ADWD in my opinion, she turns into a whiny mess. This was one of my problems with the book. But I think GRRM wanted to remind us that even though she is the Queen of Dragons, she still is a young woman with vulnearbilities and weaknesses. Again, didn't anybody want to see more of the sacking of Astapor??? There hasn't been nearly enough action. It was a cool scene but all we saw was 2 slavers killed, the Slavemaster burned, and then a wave of fire behind Dany's head. I would have liked to see a little more gore and destruction from the wrath of the dragons unleashed on Astapor.

Don't worry, I'v read the books, so you are not spoiling anything :cheers:

I have a slightly different opinion on Daenerys, though. I think she was a frightened little girl at the first book, but after that, she did become a leader. I think there are two main reasons why she appears like a "whiny mess" from time to time, especially later in the books :

1)She is new in that queen/leader business - she doesn't know what to do, where to go, how to make all those people (liberated slaves) safe, etc. So, she is a bit lost in all of that.

2)We can see her thoughts.That's the main reason, if you ask me. We can see how insecure she is, how tired, and so on. We don't get to see that when un - POV characters are concerned , like Tywin, for example. He looks firm as a rock, in any moment. But, if we got to see his thoughts, who the hell knows how would that look like. Maybe he feels overwhelmed with the situation from time to time as well. Maybe he lusts for Shae :drool: :laugh: . We will never find out, all we know is that he looks like a boss in any situation.

Good example for this is Melissandre. Seen through eyes of others, she looks like a confidence itself; But her POV chapter shows us that she is also insecure. So, in short : Without POV status, Daenerys would seem as a proper Dragon queen, not as a whiner. That's my impression.

Anyway, my remark to Emilia Clarke was that she failed to show us how charismatic and confident Daenerys could be, when she isn't whining. :lol: . Like she doesn't know how to be relaxed, but authoritative at the same time . Charles Dance knows :smug: But she is improving, I think.

And, yes it would be better that an Astapor scene was a proper Blood - bath, but I think budget reasons prevent that ( a massive fight and so on).

I want to apologize for a long post, especially to "LastDragonLives" who, most probably will try to read it to the end.Sorry :)

And of course, for any mistakes.

Edited by Despot

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Is anybody else slightly concerned with how many new scenes have been added in? Most of them have been incredibly done and obviously they don't want the show to be exactly the same as the books, but I feel like they're taking a lot of the mystery out of characters like Littlefinger, Varys and Olenna, who we still don't know a lot about at the end of the fifth book

Not me, I love the added scenes which show us things which the books couldn't due to the PoV. When they are done right, of course. And the book versions remain mysterious since they are different.

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I think this weeks episode is much better on a second watch. I gave it an 8 after watching it for the first time but i Would say nearer 9.5 after a second watch.

Here is our review, would be great to get your opinion on our review. Just check out video out !

The Theon scene put a lump in my throat, I felt sorry for him after season 2. And now my heart goes out to him......

The Varys scene was unbelievable as well. It's not in the books but its a welcome addition for me!

Plus the Tywin scene where he tells Cersei that she isn't as clever as she thinks. Great too !!!!!!!!!!!!

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Um, no. Ros is awful and a plot device for flat-out lazy writing. She is completely unrealistic for a woman of "those times" and her whole double-agent role is ludicrous. Her "moving up in the world" as Littlefinger's Hand of the Pimp makes no sense.

Hand of the Pimp!

Awesome phrasing!

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Well, that was a great episode. I only voted 9, cause I know the show can do even better in the next episodes and it probably would. The final scenes were epic. I finally get that feeling that I am watching a big production with a decent budget. The Blackwater episode was impressive, but the "Dracarys" scene was really something I was looking for. I def got goosebumps.

The episode had definitely a strong and emotional beginning. Seeing Jaime defeated and desperate was a call back to reality. He realizes he cannot always count on his father's name. And here enters Brienne an returns him the favor, trying to make him angry and wake the will to live in him. It was emotional scene - sad, but somehow beautiful - representing perfectly the dynamic between the two characters.

I was wondering the whole time what was Varys actually doing with the box, while talking to Tyrion. I knew he was up to something but wasn't expecting ... that. I guess there isn't any special meaning behind this deviation from the book story. It was just supposed to give the viewers the feeling that Varys is a dangerous guy indeed and he can wait as long as it takes to achieve his purposes. And from the looks if Tyrion I would say he was rather impressed too.

The tension at the NW has started to build up slowly since the previous episode. We see the minor gestures and statements which lead us to thing this apple has rotten from the inside long time ago. Of course in the book the hunger and desperation were almost real. But the show did its best too. Hunger and fear do make people go crazy. The Nights Watch has fallen - not at the Wall, but there in Craster's Keep. And so did Mormont - his watch has ended.

I know that there are so many characters this season, but Bran's story line seems really unimportant and somehow distant. We get to see him for a minute pro episode and people are still confused about the Reeds. It is somehow sad, because I have the feeling he has the most important role to play later. The dream of Catelyn was some kind of foreshadowing I guess. We all know what's coming.

The Sansa plot is more obvious than in the books and I find that understandable. I really enjoyed the Varys quality time in this episode. He is the best. I can't recall one thing though - why was Ross so willing to spy for him?

Margaery is the new sweetheart. I love her interaction with Joffrey and Jack Gleeson is an outstanding actor - probably one of the best in the show. His fear from the common people was almost surreal and than the insecure waving to the crowd ... He nailed it. The Sept of Baelor was impressive. Also we learned some brief history lessons and got to see Cersei truly worried - priceless.

Poor Theon. His confession about Ned Stark was heartbreaking. Theon's story is somehow really tragic, but also showing how one's life could be truly affected from early stages. My non-book reader friends still don't feel pity for him, but I guess it would all come later.

Aaaaand finally Cersei got her a*s spanked. She deserved it. And from her father's mouth. It was really impressive to see how Tiwyn holds his children - only with one word, gesture or look. He does not have power - he IS the power. And the thin irony was also spot on - he is criticizing Cersei about not being able to handle her own son, but yet he failed tremendously in the proper upbringing of his own children. And only the sound of the letter writing just got me chills.

The Olenna scenes are really refreshing. I was surprised to see how Varys was not prepared for her honesty at the beginning of the conversation but he then soon got his confidence back. Those were some really good lines. I was really enjoying the scene. And than the related one with Sansa and Margaery was also fine. They are so different but still willing to be friends - two beautiful little girls in the middle of the cruel Game of Thrones. Was it said explicitly in the show that Loras is in the Kings Guard? Cause that makes the marriage proposal without any real meaning. Sansa wouldn't have fallen for that. Otherwise the slightly change was ok. We don't need another new character to remember.

We won't be seeing enough of Arya this season I guess but I'm looking forward to hear some prophecies. I'm not sure if they will include the Ghost of High Heart, or they will just make Thoros to see something in the flames though.

As I have already stated, the final scene was epic. The minor complaint was just that we really didn't think Dany would actually sell Drogon. Some more suspense couldn't have hurt but it's fine. Also I hope we get to see more consistent appearances by each character. Not one scene pro episode.

Edited: spelling

Edited by Lyana

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The Olenna scenes are really refreshing. I was surprised to see how Varys was not prepared for her honesty at the beginning of the conversation but he then soon got his confidence back. Those were some really good lines. I was really enjoying the scene. And than the related one with Sansa and Margaery was also fine. They are so different but still willing to be friends - two beautiful little girls in the middle of the cruel Game of Thrones. Was it said explicitly in the show that Loras is in the Kings Guard? Cause that makes the marriage proposal without any real meaning. Sansa wouldn't have fallen for that. Otherwise the slightly change was ok. We don't need another new character to remember.

Perhaps I took this up wrong, but is Margaery not completely playing Sansa at this point?

Olenna and Varys have just spoken of how Sansa could be the key to the North, and neither want Littlefinger to possess this key.

Next thing, Margaery is proposing Sansa instead goes to Highgarden, giving Loras and the Tyrells the prospect of Northern control.

Margaery is not 'caught up' in the Game of Thrones, she's playing it, and very well, under the guidance and protection of her grandmother.

Sansa, in contrast, is STILL so naive, innocent and, in truth, cringeworthy at this stage. A pawn in the game.

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And you're right she was wearing a scarf! YES! Lady Stoneheart! I guess we'll see her at the end of the season, right?

No. She wasn't wearing a scarf. I noticed she got paler and more grey as the scene went on, so I rewound, and watched it over and over to make sure I wasn't seeing things, and to see if they had done anything to her neck (which they hadn't.) She has her regular Winterfell-ish dress/neckline on.

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Between the grayish tinge to her skin and the "Promise me" line it felt like two different references & a definite shout-out to people in the know, in addition to being your pretty standard "~~mysterious Bran dream~~" but I could be reading too much into it.

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Between the grayish tinge to her skin and the "Promise me" line it felt like two different references & a definite shout-out to people in the know, in addition to being your pretty standard "~~mysterious Bran dream~~" but I could be reading too much into it.

I don't think you are. Her skin changes color, along with her demeanor. She's almost smiling in the first shot with slight color in her face, then grows grayer, and more aggro as the scene progresses, borderline feral. The color change was done in post, and is very subtle, but it's there, and it's bloody brilliant.

Edited by Moët

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I'm left curious why Vars scene was added. They certainly like to forshadow in obvious ways. I don't remember if Vars ever reveals this story to Tyrion in the books its been a while since I read them. I understand that they may be trying to give him clearer motivations, were in the books his purpose and motivations are left to much speculation to not only the characters but to the reader as well. His intentions and involvement in nefarious deeds are always in question.

I'm also kind of disappointed that LF's plan isn't left a mystery until he spirits Sansa away through the offish knight (I forget the nickname used Sir Florin I think). I loved the scene were Sansa and the reader learns just how cunning and vicious LF really is.

I'm curious to see how Jorah is revealed as the spy to King Robert now that Barristan was revealed so soon.

I'm still hurt over not introducing strong belwas, now who will kill the champion of Yankai?

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It's not impossible that one whore could read, nor is it odd that Varys didn't see the two beds on the bill of lading. He's not Sherlock Holmes, he's a schemer.

The odd thing to me was that Ros saw 2 beds and she deduced it was a plot to whisk away Sansa. Makes me think this is a LF scheme.

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