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yea i think if Beric takes off his armor next episode & shows his chest wound with putrid blood oozing & festering out of the cuts it will add more depth to the show... lol naw i really just wanna see JS do a lord's kiss on some lips that are kissed by fire! will the carpets match the drapes?

Again more sarcasm, but yes actually showing that would add depth. It would let the audience know he's technically not alive.

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The Sansa/Loras proposal won't last long, and Tywin may put Loras in the KG specifically to prevent the marriage, then set up Sansa/Tyrion.

I predict this. Just as the Mad King did to Twyin by naming Jamie to the Kingsguard.

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Wouldn't Theon have known from Ramsay's accent tthat he wasn't from Saltcliffe?

Or that they had doubled-back? Theon's in a little bit of shock, or something. Certainly his head is spinning from his choice to betray Robb, screwed up relationships with his sister and father, everything going wrong @ Winterfell, being betrayed by his men, captured, and tortured. Hard to blame him, really.

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Seriously, that's what happens in the book. Nice try smartass

TV series ≠ Books. Or are you actually expecting them to be the same?

If you want Raider's of the Lost Ark details, why not write a check for $100million to HBO, and ask nicely.

Personally, eyes melting on screen would be complete cheese, and this show isn't, so no, I don't care if it's "in the book", I'm glad it didn't happen. I don't need that kind of detail to understand what's happening in the story.

Edited by Moët

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LOVED this episode!

Jaime in the mud and trying to fight back was very affecting. Glad they kept the hand and him drinking horsepiss. The latter made me so angy when I read it!

Tywin and Cersei -- flawless--but there's another thread about this. I liked that she asked about Jaime because it will be a good precursor to Jaime's dialogue in the bath scene.

Dany + dragons +dracarys = pure AWESOME. Liked the way they showed the Unsullied coming to her side as free men.

Death of Mormont was better in books due to the plotting, but this was good too.

Liked the Varys and sorceror scene--creepy.

Like TV Margaery playing Joffrey. It makes me wonder what he'll do to make the Tyrells turn against him.

I'm not sure I get the Theon scenes. In the book, Ramsay let Kyra and Theon think they were escaping before hunting them down, but this feels weirder.

Liked the set up for the Hound/Beric scene. Looking forward to it!

"You sound like a bloody woman!" well, Brienne was never this sexist in the books tbh.

I don't think Brienne was being sexist--just trying to stay something to get a spark of life back into Jaime. Very similar to him calling her wench when she's depressed after the RW on the ride to KL/

I think you can take it either way. I mean the who killed Joffrey is a big angle in the PW and so far Tyrion, Margaery, QOT, and now Tywin have all said something that could be construed as I will kill him if I have to.

I wonder if they'll turn it into a "who shot JR?" type of story...

What really gets me about the Cersei/Tywin scene was the crowd pleasing line of "You are not as smart as you think you are." We as book readers know that Cersei eventually delves into paranoid madness and makes rash, idiotic decisions because of this. But in THIS moment with Tywin she is absolutely correct that House Tyrell is plotting and angling for the throne in their own subtle way. Cersei is right to be wary of Margaery and Olenna because they end up being instrumental in assassinating her son. Joffrey's death then drives Cersei over the edge and she becomes a truly wicked character, but in THIS moment she still has her head in the game and she sees the Tyrells for what they are. It's Tywin who cannot see the forest for the trees in this matter. The Tyrells might be as devious as the Lannisters but they are just as ambitious and scheming. Just in a different way.

The thing with Cersei is that in the midst of her incompetence, she has flashes of brilliance and insight. That's why she can say thing like "when you play the game of thrones..." which is one of the truest lines in the entire series, but also be stupid enough to not recognize that Joff is a monster.

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I wonder if they'll turn it into a "who shot JR?" type of story...

I would totally buy an "I poisoned Joffrey" T-shirt

Edited by Joyful Union

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I would totally buy an "I poisoned Joffrey" T-shirt

Hahaha, cosigned. Get on it, HBO!

The thing with Cersei is that in the midst of her incompetence, she has flashes of brilliance and insight.

Yes. And when it comes to the Tyrells, it's not really paranoia if they are out to get you. The Tyrells were a big blind spot for Tywin, and his refusal to entertain Cersei's concerns is the first glimmer of this. He does have a point when he implies that Margaery being a civilizing influence on Joffrey might not be a bad thing, though.

Edited by Newstar

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Yes. And when it comes to the Tyrells, it's not really paranoia if they are out to get you. The Tyrells were a big blind spot for Tywin, and his refusal to entertain Cersei's concerns is the first glimmer of this. He does have a point when he implies that Margaery being a civilizing influence on Joffrey might not be a bad thing, though.

this reminds me of the old joke "just because i think everyone is out to get me doesn't mean i'm paranoid." ba dep bep.

if cersei's worries were focused solely on the tyrells then everyone would have praised her astuteness for figuring out they were a threat. but she thinks everyone is an enemy and therefore does indeed show paranoia. i don't know if the tyrells were a blind spot for tywin or if he just didn't think there was much trouble they could cause. let's face it, other than killing joff, there isn't much they do cause. (ok, writing that has to be the most surreal thing i've ever written and yet it makes sense in this story.) they don't really start "taking over" until after tywin's dead and cersei starts making moves on her own.

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Yes. And when it comes to the Tyrells, it's not really paranoia if they are out to get you. The Tyrells were a big blind spot for Tywin, and his refusal to entertain Cersei's concerns is the first glimmer of this. He does have a point when he implies that Margaery being a civilizing influence on Joffrey might not be a bad thing, though.

I thought it was left ambiguous in the books as to whether or not the Tyrells were plotting against Cersei. Since her absolutely insane lens is the only one we've seen them through in Kings landing, its difficult to ascertain.

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I thought it was left ambiguous in the books as to whether or not the Tyrells were plotting against Cersei. Since her absolutely insane lens is the only one we've seen them through in Kings landing, its difficult to ascertain.

IMO that's also why Tywin paid no attention to Cersei's concerns re: The Tyrell's. It's a bit of the boy who cried wolf phenomenon. He probably chalked it up to her nuttiness.

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It's really simple....

The show focuses on big moments! RW, PW, The Old Bear's death, Jamie's hand etc. The problem is that by focusing so much on the big moments, they neglect the slow build that goes into them, therefore degrading the overall experience. From a mile away, you can see the potential for problems with the RW. The same as with the Old Bear's death, there wasn't the right kind of build up to raise the emotional level to that of the books.

Most people I know could care less about Robb and find him annoying and a horrible leader. In fact, I've met more fans of Tywin than Robb. This is a real problem for the show and certainly a sign of how poorly they have handled creating appropriate amounts of character development.

I agree that the charm of the books is in the little details that are often overlooked by the strong emphasis the show places on the big events. The charm of the series is in Martin's numerous references to popular culture, his brilliant technique of intertwining storylines and character arcs in a subtle manner and the eloborate history he has created for the setting of the books - all these are very, very difficult to convey to the screen. I saw that another poster had mentioned that the show's season should be stretched over a year with a weekly episode; the more hours available on-screen to cover the books, the more justice it would have done to the world Martin has created.

That said, I think the producers of the show are doing an excellent job in what they're aiming for: to keep the viewer hooked to an epic show that really kicks the adrenaline levels. Dracarys, angry spitfirin' Hound, Jamie and Brienne interactions - the show is excellent in terms of of character development (although this does not account to all characters *StanniscoughCatelyncough*), and build-up of suspense and plot twists.

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It's really simple....

The show focuses on big moments! RW, PW, The Old Bear's death, Jamie's hand etc. The problem is that by focusing so much on the big moments, they neglect the slow build that goes into them, therefore degrading the overall experience. From a mile away, you can see the potential for problems with the RW. The same as with the Old Bear's death, there wasn't the right kind of build up to raise the emotional level to that of the books.

Most people I know could care less about Robb and find him annoying and a horrible leader. In fact, I've met more fans of Tywin than Robb. This is a real problem for the show and certainly a sign of how poorly they have handled creating appropriate amounts of character development.

Congratulations, you've discovered television!

Also, there are probably more BookTywin fans than BookRobb fans.

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Congratulations, you've discovered television!

Also, there are probably more BookTywin fans than BookRobb fans.

Ooh, I don't know about that. I think this forum isn't that indicative of the general perception of characters since we're all so obsessed and overanalyze everything. I think Robb gets extra crap on here because he did do some stupid things, but overall he was honorable and just and fighting for a good cause, whereas Tywin ordered the death of babies and is overall a pretty bad father and a petty man (As Oberyn points out).

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Congratulations, you've discovered television!

Also, there are probably more BookTywin fans than BookRobb fans.

TVRobb is still a terrible, whiny character no matter how his book version stacks up to TV or Book Tywin's popularity. Catelyn is the only one who I'll be sad about seeing get killed at the Red Wedding when it happens on TV.

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IMO that's also why Tywin paid no attention to Cersei's concerns re: The Tyrell's. It's a bit of the boy who cried wolf phenomenon. He probably chalked it up to her nuttiness.

Kevan (in the books) seems to be seeing the truth - in between Tywin (who probably couldnt imagine anyone challenging him) and Cersei (turning into Aerys) and the Tyrells are definitely seeing how far they can go.

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TVRobb is still a terrible, whiny character no matter how his book version stacks up to TV or Book Tywin's popularity. Catelyn is the only one who I'll be sad about seeing get killed at the Red Wedding when it happens on TV.

I quite like TV Robb. Not moreso than book Robb but I still like him. For all of his mistakes and hypocrisy, he's a boy shoved into a terrible situation in which he could not possibly win. But he is the north. The northerners we love are at his mercy, so to speak. At one point his men idolized him. But then his men grew discontent, disregarding the victories, because being a King is more than just winning battles. I think the show portrayal illustrates that the northerners were also hasty and irresponsible in choosing him to be King Robb.

He is Ned Stark's son but yet not enough to make it cheesy. Maester Aemon tells Jon that Ned is one in a million. I think Robb is proof of that, but he hasn't lost sympathy from me because he chose to marry an actual woman. It's stupid and tragic, but I don't know if I were him I'd be much better. That's why I still like Robb. People will call him a buffoon or whatever, but I think he is more like most men than people would care to admit. But the point is he's not quite a King, in contrast to Tywin Lannister who doesn't hold the title but may as well should. In the show I see that, because in the books Robb was never really a hero. Jon remarks at the wall (to himself) that he was to remembered as bastard, turncloak, oathbreaker where Robb would be remembered as a hero. But that line sealed it for me that Jon's naivety perfectly explained to me that Robb wasn't really a hero.

His whining is blown out of proportion. He whines a couple times in S2 which is sort of rational. Cat came back with a shit bargain for a "King." I just think that his character is human and reasonable, not ideal, which is why I'm ok with him. What King that sat the throne was a perfect King? There were maybe 5.

Edited by DarkAndFullOfTurnips

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TVRobb is still a terrible, whiny character no matter how his book version stacks up to TV or Book Tywin's popularity. Catelyn is the only one who I'll be sad about seeing get killed at the Red Wedding when it happens on TV.

I could see how someone could find him terrible, but whiny? He whines more in the books! TvRobb is more confident if anything, more arrogant. In any case, I didn't care much at all about Robb in the books, he's barely there. I only really cared when he died because Catelyn cared, and I think many people would agree with me.

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I could see how someone could find him terrible, but whiny? He whines more in the books! TvRobb is more confident if anything, more arrogant. In any case, I didn't care much at all about Robb in the books, he's barely there. I only really cared when he died because Catelyn cared, and I think many people would agree with me.

I agree with this. The way that he handles Edmure in the last episode is a prime example of how arrogant he is. Particularly the last line: "I would have told you at this gathering if you had just been patient."

Alright Robb... I'll just sit on my hands and wait for you while Lannister forces are camped across the river from me.

(I am an Edmure fan though, so I am totally biased)

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I agree with this. The way that he handles Edmure in the last episode is a prime example of how arrogant he is. Particularly the last line: "I would have told you at this gathering if you had just been patient."

Alright Robb... I'll just sit on my hands and wait for you while Lannister forces are camped across the river from me.

(I am an Edmure fan though, so I am totally biased)

Actually, that part pissed me off in the books as well as the show, as it pretty much went down the same way. I thought that Edmure was fairly justified in his attack, and if Robb wanted him to follow orders, he should have been more specific. "Hold Riverrun" is so vague, it could mean defending around Riverrun, preventing people from encircling Riverrun, basically anything.

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