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Gods!!!! With all the great things this episode had, all anyone can talk about for 2 plus pages is Ros hatred? I normally don't get my hackles up about people's opinions, which of course they have every right to voice, but Seven bloody Hells have I grown weary of hearing the same old Ros complaints on these boards for 2+ seasons.

Every time the writers give her a line people find something in it to complain about: "The writers make her seem smarter than Varys..." "Ros is naked too much..." Ros is only good for being naked and she isn't naked enough..." "The actress is terrible..." "Ros isn't even a book character..." Maybe I will compile a list of the 1000 most common complaints about Ros and number them so the persistent complaints can read more like...Ros #768...Handy shorthand so I can get to fresh and interesting opinions rather than stale ones dating back to the pilot episode.

This is coming from someone who is much closer to being a book purist than a show changing apologist. I didn't like Ros either...but I learned to live with it rather than beating everyone who will listen or read over the head with the same complaints over and over. I learned to accept the role and have come to like Esme Bianco. Furthermore, she has played a valuable and, at times necessary, role in the show in a number of ways. The way D&D have chosen to adapt the show, right or wrong, made Ros, or a character like her, necessary.

Sorry for the angry rant...but I stand by everything in it, and I needed to vent it. I am far from a prolific poster, but I do spend a good deal of time on these boards and having to sort through the same rants for pages at a time for years is getting real old.

I'm sorry about that, but I tried to make a thread about Ros specifically so that people wouldn't have to read it if they didn't want, but the moderators never approved it, you can blame them that this is the only appropriate thread in which we can actually discuss Ros.

The literacy... yes that's a bit out there, but maybe she just had a lot of time and access to Winterfell's library? Okay... it's a stretch.

But again that is us having to invent a reason for why the character can exist rather than her existing naturally, which is what makes it unrealistic.

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- Jaime's opening scene made me sad. I get very :unsure: when proud characters get broken down.

I found it quite appropriate, actually. You have to be broken and shattered before you can be rebuilt.

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This was the strongest episode of the season and if we don't count Blackwater, possibly the best of the last two seasons.

That said, I do have some minor quibbles.

I still have some issues with how Benioff and Weiss focus their attention. The focus of this episode should have been "Astapor". It needed more than a single scene, even as good as that the scene was. Jamie/Brienne, Cersei, and Margaery all had multiple scenes this week. They needed to fully sell us on the idea that Danny might give up one of her Dragons. Even non-book reader friends of mine weren't convinced for a moment that she was actually going to give up a Dragon for an Army. A small scene with Barristan where she shows some doubt or highlights the risk of what she is doing, would have done that storyline wonders and/or a scene 'showing' and not telling us about the conditions of the Slave class in Astapor would have helpful as well (this would highlight one of Danny's underlying motivations for her actions).

The mutiny in the Night's Watch could also have used some better setup. They at least hinted at some discontent in a previous episode, but it felt bungled and confusing this week. The Watch also had critically wounded? It was hard to tell anyone had anything but superficial wounds from the exteriors shot in Iceland.

Both these storylines needed more time and scenes to truly flourish and deliver their respective payoffs. I would have given up the walkabout in the Sept or even Tyrion and Vary's scenes for a tighter focus and make this a great episode rather than a good one.

Edited by pleonasm

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I can't believe they carried on with that Podrick joke. For fuck's sake.

"You sound like a bloody woman!" well, Brienne was never this sexist in the books tbh.

Overall though, best episode of the series so far. Excelent Dany and Marg scenes. I LOVED how giddy Joffrey was.

Not outright, but there is a scene, ( I just reread it last night) where she mentions that 'she is her fathers only s--' and then Jamie berates that she was going to say son. She hates that she is not a son, just like Cersei. She wants honor, Cersei wants powe, but the society only gives them the option of marriage.

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Thank the Gods, I thought I was dealing with an insane person here. Nice avatar by the way, I love Chrono Trigger

For me it's because she's a Mary Sue of sorts, the whore who comes from nothing, accomplishes everything she could ever want, do things she could never possible do in a realistic world (like reading), thus reducing the beleivability of the realistic world George created, reduces the image of other characters, like Littlefinger and Varys by always having some clever insight into their character (knowing that LF can't be trusted) or knowing something they don't (seeing that LF booked 2 beds when Varys didn't), and all this from a character who shouldn't be taking up screen time that could be used to get more plot from the books that is cut to save time, simply because D&D want to place their stamp on the universe regardless of what fans think. That is why I hate Ros so much.

See the above. And to be fair I like Talisa. I would have liked to see Jeyne Westerling, but Talisa is fine as well since she is at least based on something from the books, has a reason to be around Robb and fall in love with him being a nurse on the battlefields and actually serves a useful part in the plot without diminishing other characters.

I don't know why I am even posting this, but everything you said about Ros applies to Talisa. How does a plucky spitfire of a Florence Nightengail type wandering around, alone and unguarded, through the battlefields of Westeros not force me to question the gritty reality of the world depicted on screen? A spunky foreign noblewoman to boot? And one that sasses Roose Bolton in front of a large group of people and lives to marry the King in the North??? Fits right in...and of course Ros the whore stretches the bounds of credulity. Everyone knows there are no whores in Westeros.

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More and more I think we'll see UnCat this season. Bran's dream of Cat turning paler and paler and more aggressive and evil in his dream feels like a foreshadowing.

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I'm sorry about that, but I tried to make a thread about Ros specifically so that people wouldn't have to read it if they didn't want, but the moderators never approved it, you can blame them that this is the only appropriate thread in which we can actually discuss Ros.

They didn't? oh too bad..

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I can't believe they carried on with that Podrick joke. For fuck's sake.

"You sound like a bloody woman!" well, Brienne was never this sexist in the books tbh.

I don't see it as "sexist" but Brienne finally open up a bit to Jaime.

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This was the strongest episode of the season and if we don't count Blackwater, possibly the best of the last two seasons.

That said, I do have some minor quibbles.

I still have some issues with how Benioff and Weiss focus their attention. The focus of this episode should have been "Astapor". It needed more than a single scene, even as good as that the scene was. Jamie/Brienne, Cersei, and Margaery all had multiple scenes this week. They needed to fully sell us on the idea that Danny might give up one of her Dragons. Even non-book reader friends of mine weren't convinced for a moment that she was actually going to give up a Dragon for an Army. A small scene with Barristan where she shows some doubt or highlights the risk of what she is doing, would have done that storyline wonders and/or a scene 'showing' and not telling us about the conditions of the Slave class in Astapor would have helpful as well (this would highlight one of Danny's underlying motivations for her actions).

The mutiny in the Night's Watch could also have used some better setup. They at least hinted at some discontent in a previous episode, but it felt bungled and confusing this week. The Watch also had critically wounded? It was hard to tell anyone had anything but superficial wounds from the exteriors shot in Iceland.

Both these storylines needed more time and scenes to truly flourish and deliver their respective payoffs. I would have given up the walkabout in the Sept or even Tyrion and Vary's scenes for a tighter focus and make this a great episode rather than a good one.

I understand your complaints. I wish they could have done a little more with each, but overall I was happy with what they did. I think if they drew out the Astaphor scene, it would have garnered complaints, like "common, get to it already" etc. They had to balance the TV audience's attention threshold with the scenes and the time HBO gave them. It's a lot harder than I think we give them credit for. Nevertheless, it was a strong episode.

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And maybe she knows how to read because her father thought her? I'm sure she wasn't born a whore.

She was definitely not born a whore, and it could be, but normal peasants usually don't know how to read.

ETA: Many people got confused with my post. So...

When I say common peasant I am refering to Ros' father. I think Ros is not a very common peasant because she is very ambitious. Otherwise, She wouldn't even have moved to KL.

Edited by Darth Zyroth

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I don't know why I am even posting this, but everything you said about Ros applies to Talisa. How does a plucky spitfire of a Florence Nightengail type wandering around, alone and unguarded, through the battlefields of Westeros not force me to question the gritty reality of the world depicted on screen? A spunky foreign noblewoman to boot? And one that sasses Roose Bolton in front of a large group of people and lives to marry the King in the North??? Fits right in...and of course Ros the whore stretches the bounds of credulity. Everyone knows there are no whores in Westeros.

Talisa as has been revealed through dialogue was born a noble in Essos (again this was revealed unlike Ros past which is left vague) which explains her sense of entitlement. She is able to walk around unguarded because she is offering medical attention to any injured soldier regardless of affiliation. Who in their right mind would stop her from doing that? Roose may very well have killed Talisa had Robb not stopped him. Robb is blinded to her problems because of young love. Everyone else tells him it's a bad idea, and tries to keep him from going ahead with it. I never said any criticisms about whores in Westeros, in fact I defend the inclusion of whores in another post if you want to pull up posts from a few pages ago, I have a problem with a whore who comes to shape Westerosi politics in such a short time from rising from the brothels of Winterfell.

They didn't? oh too bad..

And I don't appreciate the sarcasm, I've got just as much right as anyone on this board to post threads and discuss my opinions.

Edited by Blair Dale

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Of course Ros can read. She's helping LF run his business. And just as a matter of history, Courtezans/Geisha not only read, were well educated, and played music, they were very well versed in politics.

Whores know more than you think they do, they have to be able to count their money.

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What really gets me about the Cersei/Tywin scene was the crowd pleasing line of "You are not as smart as you think you are." We as book readers know that Cersei eventually delves into paranoid madness and makes rash, idiotic decisions because of this. But in THIS moment with Tywin she is absolutely correct that House Tyrell is plotting and angling for the throne in their own subtle way. Cersei is right to be wary of Margaery and Olenna because they end up being instrumental in assassinating her son. Joffrey's death then drives Cersei over the edge and she becomes a truly wicked character, but in THIS moment she still has her head in the game and she sees the Tyrells for what they are. It's Tywin who cannot see the forest for the trees in this matter. The Tyrells might be as devious as the Lannisters but they are just as ambitious and scheming. Just in a different way.

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But again that is us having to invent a reason for why the character can exist rather than her existing naturally, which is what makes it unrealistic.

I was just pointing out that a lot of the reasons people were calling Ros 'unrealistic' aren't unrealistic at all, and in fact pretty expected in the business of prostitution.

She was definitely not born a whore, and it could be, but normal peasants usually don't know how to read.

We know that Ros left the North in search of more opportunity. This tells me she was ambitious and had probably already reached the top of the heap at whatever brothel she had been working at. It's entirely possible that she was involved in finances there and learned to read to further her career.

It's not like she's reading Tolstoy in this episode; she's just looking at an inventory.

We all have thresholds of disbelief when consuming media. I don't really need to know why Ros can read; I don't find it so unrealistic that I need an answer. She is, after all, an ambitious business woman.

Contrast this with Pod's sex powers... I found that to be so entirely unbelievable that I had to spend time thinking about 'the great whore mystery' (Thanks to Ran for spoiling me and stopping my brain there). I doubt there has ever been a case where three whores voluntarily gave a man (a virgin even) a freebie cause he was just *so good*. No way. That bothered me.

I also find Talisa to be more unrealistic than Ros, but not as much as Pod (not by a long shot).

Edited by greensleeves

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Ros is awesome. And the fact that so many dislike her and her inclusions just makes me like her even more. She is a bit like the Common Man in A Man for All Seasons.

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The best part was when Jaime was fighting in the mud and he dropped his sword. Then he went to pick it up with his stump and was like, "Fuck, I don't have a hand."

that scene hurt to watch. Made me flinch.

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One thing that raised a smile: Olenna commenting on the dullness of the Tyrell words and image, in comparison with the Stark's and Greyjoy's. Sounds a lot like many discussions on this forum.

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all these opinions about Ros.... myself, i find her to be a rather empty character. A good vessel to present a story or a theme, but not much for individual characteristics or personal conflict. I don't mind her at all if her scenes are working towards a plot I enjoy, But using her to rehash that damn waste of space pod joke was irritating was all hell. I enjoy her far more than Talisa, i have to admit.

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One thing that raised a smile: Olenna commenting on the dullness of the Tyrell words and image, in comparison with the Stark's and Greyjoy's. Sounds a lot like many discussions on this forum.

Perhaps that was this episode's fandom reference? Like Cersei's comment about Tyrion's nose, Gendry's comment about Arya's choice of names, and Tyrion's reference to the Meereenese Knot.

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