[Book Spoilers] EP304 Discussion

[Rockroi]

Maybe the two best episodes back-to-back in the series' history. Let's get to it:

What I liked:

Slaying the Kingslayer: THe title of the episode is "And Now His Watch Is Ended" and it applied to many in the episode. And with JAime it was the end of his life as one of the most fearsome swordsmen in Westeros. Instead, Jaime is reduced to wanting to die, then just wanting his torment to end. All the while, we see how cruel and helpless war can make even somebody like Jaime Lannister feel and, in some ways, become. While I really enjoyed how BRienne interpalyed with him this episode, I thought that it was JAime the whole time that- much like the book - captivated me by exposing me to a powerful character made instantly helpless. Much like watching Ned be brought down, Sansa held against her will, etc- watching Jaime shrink due to the barbarity of war was masterful. And Nicolai is exceptional. As good as any actor on the show.

Fall of the Watch: Maybe one of the most underrated scenes in SoS is the revolt at Kraster's Keep as men slay each other in an orgy of blind violence, hatred, panic, fear and power gone mad. Watching the escalation was as good (if not better) than the book, and the show captured the desparation of the NW counterposed with the villiany of Craster and his desire to be left alone. Obviously, the big moment was Mormont's execution, and the show delivered. I really got a taste of just how horrible thsi world was by looking at them in that scene right asthe men were pushing Craster to bring events to a head. The excuse needed, then, to rape, pillage and murder.

Rymes with Seek: Watching the ways a man can be broken is a complex mix of wonderment and pity- I am amazed to the lengths with which the show will describe how Theoin became Reek, BUt moreover the show is contoinuing with MArtin's theme of trying to show how complicated Theon is; that while we may hate him, we still don't have to like what is happeneing to him.

Tywin's Family Values: A quick but toight scene with Tywin writing and writing and Cersei patiently waiting. I loved how that scene showed just how little Tywin needed to coddle his children; he made very clear points- Cersei botched raising Joff and now they are paying for it. Tywin has no problem giving Cersei authority, the question is, though, what is she really good for? That scene encapsulates just how much Tywin rules over all, including the thoughts of his own children.

Sophie Turner: She is portraying Sansa to a 'T'; showing us the ideal of hope ina hopeless situation. Turner's performance is nuanced, captivating, and real. She's tremendous.

Along Came a Spider: Maybe the hidden gem in this episode was Varys the Spider and how he slipped in and out of a host of tight talks with Roz, Tyrion and ultimately Olenna. While Olenna had the much better lines, Varys has the more progressive story arch. He's up to something and its not as simple or as obvious as many think. BUt when he and Tyrion are talking he suddenly has a box and reveals to all just how horrible he can be, and how much time, patience and effort true revenge takes, you know that this man is not fucking around. He has the capacity to be as deadly as Jaime. THe ultimate message: Tallyrand survived- you may not if I have my way.

The Fall of Astapor: Once again, there are maybe 1-2 scenes in each book that HAVE TO work or the show fails (Ned's death, the birth of dragons, Blackwater, etc). We just got the first of the season - Dany's trump of the slavers at Astapor was a perfect high-note Either we believe it and it works, or we don't and Dany's story begins to crumble. It was a tremendous scene. Not a Blackwater, but a absoilutely stunning show of brains, greed, intellect, killer instinct, tension and fierce hatred. I thought that whole scvene- from srart to finish was perfect; as good as anything in the show.

But.....

What I am Not Sure On:

Foreplay Is There For a Reason: In the books, while we all know Dany will not give up her dragon, as the scenes develop- as each one lines up against the other, a first-time reader could EASILY be tricked into thinking that Dany would give up Drogon... at least that she is considering giving him up. There is ample build-up to some sort of inner turmoil between Dany and her actions; a Mother possible foresaking her own child... And in a book where the main character was killed in the first book... not outside the realm of possibilities. BUt in the show? There is no doubt that Dany is not going to give up the dragon. I was watching it with a few non-book readers and they all said that they KNEW she would never do it. MY feeling is that had the show invested one or two scenes of Dany showing conflict, worry, concern, dread, fear etc- any emotion it would have gone a long way in maybe tricking the viewer into thinking "You know... she may do this..." BUt they never invested that time so the moment was lost. It was a simple paror trick, nothing more.

In the book, Dany is really, really nervous about the whole thing; that "fear of failure"; of "crossing the Trident" is lost on the viewres. I have no problem with Dany being confident- that's who she is. But at least a little scared? Nervous? How about uncertain? All of those emotions could have been used to pantomime distaste for her own action of selling a dragon. That could have been huge. People watching the show may have thought, "This bitch may sell a dragon."

In ither words, while that scene worked, the overall arc was not as elegant as it could have been.

Roses Are Still Red: While I love Natalie Dormer on the show, I think we all understand her influence over Joff, Cersei's fear, and how they are moving. I think the whole scene in Balor's sept could have been cut because it retreads covered ground. WhileI did not dislike the scene- I like the history; liked the Cersei's fear and Olenna's quips, its all rehashing stuff we already know. Even the scene with Sansa felt overly long and- after the Olenna-VArys scene - unnecessary. I am not saying its a fail, just awkward.

What I did Not LIke:

For the second week in a row, I have nothing to complain about. I though it all looked great. I thought they gave enough time to everything we wanted to see and experience.

Unfortunately... after next week... we're half-way done...

[Dragonstoned]

Anyone else annoyed by the remoulding of Brienne into a badass bitch?

The latest addition to this is her telling Jaime he sounds 'like a bloody woman'. ASoS has her saying 'are you so craven?' which was the perfect way to bring him back to life. Show!Brienne called him a coward but it wasn't the same at all because she was just insulting him.

Giving myself props for this because I called it, based on Alyssa Rosenberg's review http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/83646-an-early-take-on-season-3/page__st__80#entry4259414 and said it would be disappointing. It is very disappointing as Gwen Christie is great but they're really frontloading her character giving her no space for evolving like she did in the books, and have taken away Brienne's humanity which is what she brings out in Jaime.

[maqzzz]

Also: to whoever complained about people showing compassion towards jaime, because they had not forgotten what he has done.

GRRM always states that he believes there is good and evil in all of his characters. i like how the show is true to the books regarding jaimes transformation.

Jaime is the best and he will continue to transform into one of the more beloved characters on the show.

[Weeping Sore]

What! Nooo. We still have to see her outsmarting a bunch of battle commanders in Yunkai!

Plus- Barriston schooling the champion of Yunkai in place of Strong Belwas! Though I doubt he will shit afterward.

[Janicia]

Ros wasn't a "low class village whore". She lived very close to (in?) Winterfell. Winterfell was ruled by people who cared about the common folk - they might have provided basic education to the smallfolk. She was one of the top prostitutes there - Theon's favorite and the one that Tyrion initially chose to spend time with. She seems to have taken the initiative to research Tyrion before his arrival. When she got a windfall, she took the initiative to move to the capital and landed in a high class brothel immediately, and quickly rose through the ranks there (spying on Pycelle in S1, acting more as a madam in S2). She has been consistently portrayed as an intelligent, ambitious woman.

Ros's relationship with the Lannisters is interesting. Tyrion's generosity allowed her to get to the city, but then she had to watch a baby ripped from its mother and murdered at Joffrey's orders. Then Tyrion sent to that awful experience with Joffrey. She was beaten and imprisoned by Cersei - I imagine she told Cersei's guards that she wasn't with Tyrion but wasn't believed, but face to face with Tyrion she played the part he wanted her to. I think she's hiding her grudges behind her smiles, because there isn't anything else she can do... yet.

I get the feeling that the people who hate the character haven't even been paying attention to her.

[Moët]

lol Yes, many people have already pointed that out. But thanks for clarifying anyways ;) I had forgotten that moment. I already said that I was wrong. You're right, it was stablished that he was a member of the KG, but I think it wasn't pretty clearly explained or stablished. But well, at least they did stablish it.

I know about Courtezans/Geisha, but Ros is not one. She is a whore, or well now she is running the business? I don't know exactly how to say it.

You don't need to know how to read to know how to count. Just because someone doesn't know how to read, doesn't mean he/she is stupid. I had to teach adults to write and read for a school project. These people had jobs and knew how to count their money perfectly fine. They were very clever, and had experienced many things in life that I have never expirienced, and knew things that I didn't know and some that I haven't learned, yet. They just never had the opportunity or resources to learn how to read and write.

She is a whore in a fantasy universe. She also doesn't fuck 24/7. She has other time in the day to learn to read. Perhaps the Madame she worked for in King's Landing taught her. Or do you think that someone who ran a business like a brothel would actually be illiterate?

The stubborness on the ROS CAN'T READ thought process is baffling.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Moët

[Rockroi]

As far as Roz goes - let me begin by saying that I do not like the character at all; she is a low-point for me in the show. I find her inslusion to be a chatch-all character who is there when others cannot be; she is a stand-in for about 5 other characters in the show, thus making the universe seem strangely smaller; her "rise" is ludicrious in both time and in space- she went from Winterfell to KIng's LAnding for reasons that were never made clear, thus making the universe seem trivial and silly. She is the epitome of lazy writing.

But I get why she is there. And this week I had no problem with her hat she added to the episode. See, I think GoT NEEDS to have some levity; some light air to chop up all th eheavy and dour scenes; a few jokes to try to counter-balance against all the, well, death destruction and rape. Its necessary or the show would be, well, not only a downer, but a show that took itself WAYYYYYYYYY too seriously (think the third Matrix movie). I think Roz, this week, was fun! HEr and Varys knocking back and forth about Pod was fun! Why can't we have fun?

Its when they expand the character's foot-print that makes me sour. She is a minor, third-level character and her inclusion is such a vast array of scenes is sometimes silly.

[Moët]

Also for the 1st time I noticed that they have a small Twins set on the opening montage. It doesnt rise up but it is there.

You fly over it right after Riverrun. I saw it last week when we first saw RR. It's like Yunkai.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Anyone else annoyed by the remoulding of Brienne into a badass bitch?

The latest addition to this is her telling Jaime he sounds 'like a bloody woman'. ASoS has her saying 'are you so craven?' which was the perfect way to bring him back to life. Show!Brienne called him a coward but it wasn't the same at all because she was just insulting him.

Giving myself props for this because I called it, based on Alyssa Rosenberg's review http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry4259414 and said it would be disappointing. It is very disappointing as Gwen Christie is great but they're really frontloading her character giving her no space for evolving like she did in the books, and have taken away Brienne's humanity which is what she brings out in Jaime.

Agree with you so much. I already mentioned that I didn't like that line here and in the nitpick thread. That line was so OOC IMO. Brienne is not like all the women in Westeros, but she still sees the strength in women. She was impressed by how strong Catelyn was, and that's why she decided to serve her. In the books she recognizes that women are strong, but nobody gives them credit when she said "many women die in childbirth, but no one sings songs about them" or something along those lines.

However, here with that line she is stating that women are weak, whining bitches that give up extremely easily. I think that sounded very bad coming from Brienne who IS a woman, and I think that was very out of character.

[MyLittleDirewolf]

Anyone else annoyed by the remoulding of Brienne into a badass bitch?

The latest addition to this is her telling Jaime he sounds 'like a bloody woman'. ASoS has her saying 'are you so craven?' which was the perfect way to bring him back to life. Show!Brienne called him a coward but it wasn't the same at all because she was just insulting him.

Giving myself props for this because I called it, based on Alyssa Rosenberg's review http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry4259414 and said it would be disappointing. It is very disappointing as Gwen Christie is great but they're really frontloading her character giving her no space for evolving like she did in the books, and have taken away Brienne's humanity which is what she brings out in Jaime.

ITA. From the interviews I've seen and read with Gwendoline Christie, she really "gets" Brienne. Her performance is good. It's the writing I have trouble with. I'm not sure if it's the writers not getting the character, or a deliberate choice to make her more like a badass than a brave-yet-unsure woman without a real place in this society. Maybe it's too nuanced of a thing to come across on TV, because we don't get the benefit of Brienne's internal monologue. I'm really missing some of the tidbits like her thinking back to her training with Tarth's master-at-arms, the banquet where she met Renly, her past encounters with suitors. Those really show us who Brienne is. I was kind of bummed with the "like a bloody woman" instead of "are you so craven?" too. It also took away from Jaime's character. No one has ever accused him of being craven.

ETA - Reading Dunk & Egg helped me to understand Brienne even more. She is Dunk.

Edited April 22, 2013 by MyLittleDirewolf

[Ser Cookie Monster]

ETA - Reading Dunk & Egg helped me to understand Brienne even more. She is Dunk.

Thick as a castle wall? LOL.

But yes they are so similar.

[Dragonstoned]

However, here with that line she is stating that women are weak, whining bitches that give up extremely easily. I think that sounded very bad coming from Brienne who IS a woman, and I think that was very out of character.

Yep, unlike some characters (Cersei) she doesn't reject or bemoan her gender, she is just a woman in a nearly exclusively male profession.

ITA. From the interviews I've seen and read with Gwendoline Christie, she really "gets" Brienne. Her performance is good. It's the writing I have trouble with.

She really does, and from interviews NCW obviously gets Jaime too (he is facking superb). I think the actors understand their characters clearer than the writers do - Jaime is better done than Brienne but even he is scripted as doing things that Martin's Jaime would hardly contemplate (killing his relative, also saying to Brienne 'we don't get to choose who we love' which is way early for him to open up to her - a redemption arc accelerated too soon, like Theon in this episode repenting already).

Basically D&D need to take a backseat and let GC and NCW write their own scripts!

Edited April 22, 2013 by Dragonstoned

[six]

Anyone else annoyed by the remoulding of Brienne into a badass bitch?

The latest addition to this is her telling Jaime he sounds 'like a bloody woman'. ASoS has her saying 'are you so craven?' which was the perfect way to bring him back to life. Show!Brienne called him a coward but it wasn't the same at all because she was just insulting him.

Giving myself props for this because I called it, based on Alyssa Rosenberg's review http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry4259414 and said it would be disappointing. It is very disappointing as Gwen Christie is great but they're really frontloading her character giving her no space for evolving like she did in the books, and have taken away Brienne's humanity which is what she brings out in Jaime.

I'm a bit disappointed as well, in the books it comes across differently. Show!Brienne is much more hardened by life already, and I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but some of the things she said like the "bloody woman" line, it's something book Brienne would have never said in a million years. I think they're bringing to the surface Brienne's conflict with who she is- a woman- and what she wants to be- a knight, and how the two things don't seem to be able to coexist. At least that's my take so far.

However, I still think they're showing Brienne's humanity. When Jaime is being beaten up, she tries to help but she's stopped and she's horrified and sad at what's happening to him. And as harsh as what she said to him was, it sounded like tough love. She's puzzled by his actions- lying to save her whenever he was threatening to kill her himself not so long ago, but she doesn't think highly of him and it shows, however she's humane enough to want to him to pull through. Also, practically speaking, she needs him to be alive otherwise her task is fruitless. I think show Brienne is naive in the way she sees the world and people as good or bad, but also quite pragmatic. She's more grown up.

[Jamie Lannister]

Ros didn't bother me this episode. I thought it was a fairly easy way to tease both Varys and the audience as to what LF will be up to in a few episodes' time.

It dragged on a bit maybe, but nowhere near as bad as that bloody Pod scene in #3.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Jamie Lannister

[StarkDragon]

I'm surprised so many are upset with Brienne.

We had earlier this season Jaime calling her too much man for Renly, and IIRC constantly harassing her for being a woman and a warrior, as if being a woman is so contrary to being a warrior.

So she throws it back in his face.

Or, that's how I interpreted it.

[Sun]

What I am Not Sure On:

Foreplay Is There For a Reason: In the books, while we all know Dany will not give up her dragon, as the scenes develop- as each one lines up against the other, a first-time reader could EASILY be tricked into thinking that Dany would give up Drogon... at least that she is considering giving him up. There is ample build-up to some sort of inner turmoil between Dany and her actions; a Mother possible foresaking her own child... And in a book where the main character was killed in the first book... not outside the realm of possibilities. BUt in the show? There is no doubt that Dany is not going to give up the dragon. I was watching it with a few non-book readers and they all said that they KNEW she would never do it. MY feeling is that had the show invested one or two scenes of Dany showing conflict, worry, concern, dread, fear etc- any emotion it would have gone a long way in maybe tricking the viewer into thinking "You know... she may do this..." BUt they never invested that time so the moment was lost. It was a simple paror trick, nothing more.

In the book, Dany is really, really nervous about the whole thing; that "fear of failure"; of "crossing the Trident" is lost on the viewres. I have no problem with Dany being confident- that's who she is. But at least a little scared? Nervous? How about uncertain? All of those emotions could have been used to pantomime distaste for her own action of selling a dragon. That could have been huge. People watching the show may have thought, "This bitch may sell a dragon."

In ither words, while that scene worked, the overall arc was not as elegant as it could have been.

That hesitancy, trepidation, and fear should have been messaged to the audience in Dany's acting at the beginning of the scene. Her face and eyes should have shown her inner struggle. Unfortunately, Emilia is not a good enough actress to pull it off, though she did try, most markedly in the shot of her opening the dragon box.

[maria underfoot]

Does anyone think that the producers might change Dany's storyline? That last scene was really powerful and seemed to suggest that Dany is ready to come to Westeros...I have a bad feeling that they'll deviate from the book and skip the whole sitting-at-Meereen-doing nothing part, because they won't want to disappoint viewers, who adore Dany

[Tyrion4President]

I feel as though I'm the only person on the boards who thinks that would be a bad idea. But we'll see when it happens, I suppose.

Its confirmed that the book was split into 2 seasons. There isnt enough time this season to have all 3 weddings. We still havent met Oberyn and i doubt they are going to rush 3 weddings this seaons only to have tyrions trial drag on for all of next season

[Muttley]

The literacy... yes that's a bit out there, but maybe she just had a lot of time and access to Winterfell's library? Okay... it's a stretch.

Seeing as she was in Winterfell all that time, maybe she was a "favourite" of Maester Luwin and he taught her to read as part payment... ;)

[Sun]

Does anyone think that the producers might change Dany's storyline? That last scene was really powerful and seemed to suggest that Dany is ready to come to Westeros...I have a bad feeling that they'll deviate from the book and skip the whole sitting-at-Meereen-doing nothing part, because they won't want to disappoint viewers, who adore Dany

No. They have to have her wait in meereen for Tyrion to arrive, and I don;t see them cutting Tyrion's (the ultimate fan & critic favourite) most pivotal sequences just to bring Dany back early.

ETA:

A lot of AFFC/ADWD will be truncated, and that will speed up her return to Westeros, one hopes, but no more drastic a change to her arc than that, I don't think.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Sun