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[Book Spoilers] Is Loras really the plan?


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10 to 1 this is a rehash of what was said but hell ill say it anyway.

As a faithful book man i have to say i could care less for this change, it makes total sense in show terms. Why introduce another Tyrell when the show has set up Sansa loving Loras already.

In an episode or two Tyrion will be made to marry Sansa and introducing a pointless character (at the time) will all be for not.

No harm no foul

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The reason that Loras has to be the plan is that Littlefinger is leaving the capital this next episode and he's planning on taking Sansa with him.

Sansa must choose to stay in the capital and reject LF offer to go to the Vale. LF will tell Sansa that the Tyrells are only interested in her "name and claim to Winterfell" not to her happiness or she will realize it herself.

Once she's betrothed to Tyrion and the Tyrell's do nothing to help her she will see that everyone is just interested in her claim and then she will decide to escape.

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Bryan Cogman has confirmed in the comments to the 3x04 Recap post that Loras in the show is not in the Kingsguard.

Also, Natalie Dormer did an interview for Vulture which seemingly confirmed that Loras is now Sansa's intended in the show and not Willas:

]Q: That's true. They keep changing things that were in the books, sometimes out of practicality. For instance, instead of offering Margaery's other brother Willas as a potential fiancé to Sansa, it's now Loras. Which of course feeds into Sansa's fairy-tale fantasy, because she is oblivious that he's gay.

A: Yes, she is, bless her. So it actually enhances the story, the way it works now, because Loras gave Sansa his favor back at the tourney and she's infatuated. That's a good example of how sometimes the slight alterations can enhance and not necessarily detract from the books. (...) But there are just so many characters in the books, and they've got to draw the line somewhere in this ever-expanding cast. They're trying to keep the numbers down! [Laughs.]

I actually think it's an elegant change: streamlines the cast of characters, draws on something from a previous season (Sansa's infatuation with Ser Loras from Season 1), makes use of an actor who needs to be given something to do (Finn Jones), etc. It also streamlines the character arc, a bit, and in a series like this, there isn't a lot of room for non-essential, overarching plot-related character development. We don't have to waste time on learning about some random dude we don't know from Adam, trying to care about this guy we've never seen, watching Sansa struggle with coming around to accepting Willas as a suitor, moving from disappointment to acceptance to eagerness, etc. We know Loras, and we know she has a crush on Loras and is oblivious to his inclinations, so the minute Margaery floats the marriage as a potential future for Sansa in 3x04, we know all we need to know in that moment from her genuine, thrilled smile. It saves time, and as there are something like 11 ongoing storylines at any given point in the show, time is a precious commodity. And also, when she is denied Loras, her romantic ideal in the books and in the show, her disappointment will be all the more crushing.

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"If Robb Stark were to fail then Sansa is the key to the North." (paraphrase)

I'm a little confused because the situation with Bran and Rickon is shaky at best. There's been no confirmation of their deaths, just speculation. I'll be really interested if Roose sends Robb a message about Bran and Rickon being dead (now that Bolton knows they aren't through Ramsey).

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"If Robb Stark were to fail then Sansa is the key to the North." (paraphrase)

I'm a little confused because the situation with Bran and Rickon is shaky at best. There's been no confirmation of their deaths, just speculation. I'll be really interested if Roose sends Robb a message about Bran and Rickon being dead (now that Bolton knows they aren't through Ramsey).

Yeah, the show has made a bit of a hash out of Sansa's claim. When they state that Sansa is the key to the North if Robb Stark dies, Varys and Olenna are talking as if Winterfell is known to be sacked and burned and Bran and Rickon are believed to be dead, but there's been no indication that this news has reached KL by the opening of Season 3. It only reached Catelyn and Robb in 3x02. Nor has there been any confirmation from Sansa that she believes her brothers are dead (which, in the books, she learned after ACOK but before the start of the events in ASOS). The only way Sansa is the key to the North in the event of Robb's death is if Bran and Rickon are already dead, and there's been no indication that anyone in KL knows this. Tyrion didn't mention Sansa's claim when discussing her desirability as a bride in 3x02, only her "very old name."

Either Sansa is still fourth in line but is still a valuable marriage prospect because of the Stark name, or all that stands between Sansa's husband and the North is Robb Stark. The writers should pick one. It looks like Tywin's going to give Tyrion the "come to Jesus" talk about marrying Sansa Stark in 3x05, so maybe the writers will have figured out what KL does or doesn't know by then.

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"If Robb Stark were to fail then Sansa is the key to the North." (paraphrase)

I'm a little confused because the situation with Bran and Rickon is shaky at best. There's been no confirmation of their deaths, just speculation. I'll be really interested if Roose sends Robb a message about Bran and Rickon being dead (now that Bolton knows they aren't through Ramsey).

Varys made a comment to Joffrey about how his little birds in the North have been silent since Theon took Winterfell. This is right before Joffrey gives his "red smile to Stannis" speech.

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On the Kingsguard thing:

TV Loras was the Lord Commander of TV Renly's Kingsguard! We all do know that he has not yet joined Joffrey's Kingsguard. That much is obvious! But if Loras was Mace's only son in the show, the whole Renly marriage thing would have effectively destroyed the line of succession of Highgarden. Both Margaery and Loras would have been out of the picture as heirs of Highgarden. Margaery would be Renly's queen, Loras his real consort and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Who will take over as Lord of Highgarden when Mace dies?

Shrewd Lady Olenna would never have allowed both of Mace's children to bind themselves permanently to Joffrey if this would have severely threatened the continuation of the main line of House Tyrell!

They have to keep at least Willas as an existing person in the show, even if he does not appear on screen. And considering that Tywin is going to consider a lot of possible Tyrell-Lannister matches before and after Joffrey's death (first Cersei-Willas to soften the slight after Tywin steals Sansa, then Cersei-Willas - which Mace first accepts, and Olenna later declines -, and finally Jaime-Margaery after Joffrey's death) they could use Willas for that later on. It would be stupid to omit Loras joining Joffrey's Kingsguard completely, and it would be much more interesting to try to marry Cersei to a cripple instead of a gay youth. Especially since Tywin's intention in marrying both his twins off is to convince the public that there is no truth to the twincest rumors. Marrying Cersei to a gay man is not going to convince the people who know about Loras' sexuality that this is going to be a real marriage...

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Sansa and Cat definitely inspire a bizarre amount of hate and blame on various internet communities, it's a phenomenon I've never quite understood. It's disappointing but whatever, you can't let random peoples' weird opinions alter your enjoyment of a character or story.

But most of the things the showmakers might wish to wash off Tyrion have not yet happened. So far Shae and Tywin are alive, Symon Silvertongue has not yet shown up and boy Tyrion's tragic guilt in his own and Tysha's abuse has not been part of the story. So the viewer simply cannot see where Tyrion should be a particularly grey or even dark character. The murders happen later and his (self) destructive phase of ADWD is far away.

The problem is that it seems like the TV producers are the ones setting up that reaction by the deletion of a moment of character development for Sansa and their complete whitewashing of any flaws of Tyrion thus creating little apparent reason for why Sansa should reject him or why viewers should be worried for her.

There are several aspects: in the book Sansa is simply too young to have sex with anyone (with Willas as well, of course but posters conveniently choose to ignore that). Look at Turner and you can forget that argument. Little girl Sansa in the books simply has no idea what being married might mean, neither to Joffrey nor Willas "She simply had no idea what was expected from her". The older HBO Sansa can make an active choice of whom she desires or not.

And in the series they simply emphazise the fact that Sansa is only wanted for her claim by whomever, making Willas love her would have never happened, she is a claim on legs. It is Margaery and Olenna (interesting? Not particularly, but her claim is) who draw the strings, not caring about Sansa's and Loras' wishes. Of course with the highly intelligent Margaery Sansa pales as character but she is endearing in her naivety, people will still pity her for getting her illusions crushed. And viewers will be more worried for her safety when she is with Tyrion than with Loras since at the moment Loras is in a secure position while Tyrion's situation is dire and Sansa and Tyrion can be victims of Joffrey's madness any time.

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And viewers will be more worried for her safety when she is with Tyrion than with Loras since at the moment Loras is in a secure position while Tyrion's situation is dire and Sansa and Tyrion can be victims of Joffrey's madness any time.

Disagree- I think the whole point of Joffrey's rant about homosexuality was to make it clear that Loras is by no means in a secure position- which is partially I think the reason for the Sansa/Loras plot- it gives Loras some defence against such accusations.

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Disagree- I think the whole point of Joffrey's rant about homosexuality was to make it clear that Loras is by no means in a secure position- which is partially I think the reason for the Sansa/Loras plot- it gives Loras some defence against such accusations.

Ok, that makes sense

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But Lady Olenna's major concern beside the advancement of House Tyrell is the well-being of the members of her family. That's why Joffrey has to die, after all. To ensure that the alliance between Casterly Rock and Highgarden is going to work, not to terminate it.

And Loras won't be happy in a marriage with Sansa Stark. Neither will she. And if TV Loras truly turns out to be the heir to Highgarden, Sansa would be the mother to Mace Tyrell's grandchildren, including the next Lord of Highgarden. That is, as long as the marriage between Sansa and Loras is not going to be a marriage on paper. If Loras is the heir to Highgarden, he has to consummate his marriage. And an unhappy Lady Sansa of Highgarden could become a great problem for House Tyrell later on, if she starts to entertain herself with real men, ends up making fun of her effeminate husband, and so on. She could easily become a second Cersei.

Loras cannot be the heir to Highgarden, by the way. Neither Mace nor Olenna would have allowed Loras to join Renly's Kingsguard if he had been Mace's only son. Nor would they allowed him to enter into a long-term homosexual relationship when he has to secure the continuation of the main line of House Tyrell. It just doesn't make any sense. And the smart move of the Willas plot in the book was that Sansa would have been married to the eldest Tyrell son. Willas would have been Lord of Highgarden and Lord Protector of the North, and his eldest son heir to Highgarden and the North!

Frankly, it is entirely incorrect to equate gay to effeminate and being unable to consummate a marriage. Gay men are not impotent, and a big chunk of them are not even effeminate (both apply to Loras). Loras's sexual acts happen behind close doors and though people talk about him having slept with Renly, that piece is pure rumor just like the parentage of Joffrey.

Not introducing Garlan or other sons of Mace is definitely a decision to save on money, and it doesn't hurt to let TV viewers think of Loras as heir to Highgarden. There is no need to even discuss if Sansa would be happy with him or not, there must be tons of marriages in Westeros done for pure strategic alliances.

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Yeah, the show has made a bit of a hash out of Sansa's claim. When they state that Sansa is the key to the North if Robb Stark dies, Varys and Olenna are talking as if Winterfell is known to be sacked and burned and Bran and Rickon are believed to be dead, but there's been no indication that this news has reached KL by the opening of Season 3. It only reached Catelyn and Robb in 3x02.

I don't think there's any reason to believe that it hasn't reached the upper echelons of KL, though, even if it wasn't shown, and even if Sansa wasn't told. After all, she's pretty isolated from the outside. Clearly, Bolton knew that Winterfell had fallen, so presumably, it would leak out into the troops, and from there, all it takes is a raven and the secret is out. After all, Winterfell falling is huge news.

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I'm still waiting for a scene where Sansa expresses grief for her brothers, or when someone in King's Landing talks about what happened. Maybe it'll come after the Red Wedding (it has to come after the Red Wedding), or Tywin will bring it up next episode? After all, from what I've seen from the preview, they'll tell Tyrion to marry Sansa. What good would that be if Bran and Rickon were still alive?

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I'm still waiting for a scene where Sansa expresses grief for her brothers, or when someone in King's Landing talks about what happened. Maybe it'll come after the Red Wedding (it has to come after the Red Wedding), or Tywin will bring it up next episode? After all, from what I've seen from the preview, they'll tell Tyrion to marry Sansa. What good would that be if Bran and Rickon were still alive?

What good? Insurance. It's a win win situation for Tywin, his dwarf son has been married off to a girl of the highest rank of nobility and he makes sure that no one else can come along and try to claim the north through her if anything happens to the male heirs. Tywin doesn't lose anything by forcing this marriage whether or not Bran and Rickon are alive.

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Disagree- I think the whole point of Joffrey's rant about homosexuality was to make it clear that Loras is by no means in a secure position- which is partially I think the reason for the Sansa/Loras plot- it gives Loras some defence against such accusations.

It also gives the Tyrells added incentive to want Joffrey gone. Preferably before he passes that law...

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Disagree- I think the whole point of Joffrey's rant about homosexuality was to make it clear that Loras is by no means in a secure position- which is partially I think the reason for the Sansa/Loras plot- it gives Loras some defence against such accusations.

No because Margery explicitly says that Sansa will marry Loras and they'll return home to Highgarden. With Tyrion her place is in King's Landing where she is at risk whereas with Loras she is in Highgarden.

Joffrey's views on homosexuality are irrelevant.

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Joffrey's views on homosexuality is just another reason to hate him. It's also possible D&D are making shit up and suggesting that Joff's a homosexual (especially after that whore scene from last season).

Sansa is going to get some serious backlash once she gets depressed that she's marrying Tyrion and not Loras. Show viewers who LOVE Tyrion are going to crucify her for not jumping into his arms because he's not handsome enough. Going to be rough for poor Sophie Turner.

Also, Loras being the only son of Mace makes it strange when he joins the Kingsguard. Why would the only son of the Warden of the South and heir to Highgarden give up his claim like that? Doesn't make much sense. Unless they work in a younger sibling of Loras' that doesn't exist to justify it

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We don't know that Loras is the only son of Mance in the show, or even the oldest one. They didn't say that he's the heir to Highgarden, just that as his wife Sansa would live there. It would not be unknown for a younger son (with no land of his own) to remain in his parents' home, especially since there must be room to spare...

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Sansa is going to get some serious backlash once she gets depressed that she's marrying Tyrion and not Loras. Show viewers who LOVE Tyrion are going to crucify her for not jumping into his arms because he's not handsome enough. Going to be rough for poor Sophie Turner.

Also, Loras being the only son of Mace makes it strange when he joins the Kingsguard. Why would the only son of the Warden of the South and heir to Highgarden give up his claim like that? Doesn't make much sense. Unless they work in a younger sibling of Loras' that doesn't exist to justify it

Sophie Turner has mentioned in interviews that people can be pretty awkward about expressing dislike for her character, and that's only going to get worse after her marriage. Ugh, people are obnoxious

In addition to keeping an eye on Margaery around Joffrey, a big part of Loras' motivation was that he knew he'd never find love again after Renly and he didn't want a loveless marriage/didn't give a damn about lands and titles. Making him the only son makes that gesture more romantic, in a way (also more selfish) since he's giving up such a huge opportunity for it.

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Sophie Turner has mentioned in interviews that people can be pretty awkward about expressing dislike for her character, and that's only going to get worse after her marriage. Ugh, people are obnoxious

It never ceases to amaze me, just how ridiculous people are when it comes to projecting their feelings about characters onto the actors that portray them. It just means they can play that part well, doesn't actually say anything about the actor as a person.

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