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StannisandDaeny

(Book Spoilers) If Varys despises magic...

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... then what about Daenerys and her dragons, who are basically the reason magic is on the rise again? I know I'm kicking in an open door by saying Varys could simply be lying, but could this also imply his reasoning for rather supporting 'Aegon' than Daenerys later on has something to do with Daeny's dragons...?

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I do not think it is widly known that the dragons cause magic to be more powerful.

As far as we know only the warlocks figured it out when Dany showed up on their doorstep.

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I think this is one of the places where we see Varys putting his personal desire aside for the, what he views as, betterment of 7 Kingdoms. I don't think that his being cut is a fabrication (as we have seen discussed before) nor do I see him really being a supporter of Aegon versus Dany. What we may in the end find out is that he dislikes the "sorcerers" more so than magic itself.

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I believe that he despises magic, but I disagree with the opinion that the dragons are the reason why the magic is back. Rather, the dragons are back because the magic is.

Also, I agree with Greywolf that Varys might have a bigger dislike for sorcerers than magic itself.

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I think this is one of the places where we see Varys putting his personal desire aside for the, what he views as, betterment of 7 Kingdoms. I don't think that his being cut is a fabrication (as we have seen discussed before) nor do I see him really being a supporter of Aegon versus Dany. What we may in the end find out is that he dislikes the "sorcerers" more so than magic itself.

Then what to make of his conversation with Tyrion before Blackwater about there being nowhere to hide if she arrives with dragons? Is he lying?

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Well Illyrio claims that he didn't expect Dany to survive the Dothraki so I think Dany has surprised them quite a lot. Then again I'm not sure how much to trust any of Illyrio, Varys, Littlefinger etc.

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I wouldn't actually make the connection dragons = magic

I mean, yes, them coming back into the world strengthens magic (or the other way around, as Buckwheat pointed out), but I think there is a huge difference between dragons and red priests, sorcerers, etc.

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It's also possible that for all they've been scheming together, Varys and Illyrio actually have different goals in mind. It wasn't Varys who gave Dany the dragon eggs. Targaryens in and of themselves haven't made things magic for a long time - why would Varys assume that that would suddenly change?

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I believe that he despises magic, but I disagree with the opinion that the dragons are the reason why the magic is back. Rather, the dragons are back because the magic is.

Also, I agree with Greywolf that Varys might have a bigger dislike for sorcerers than magic itself.

thats a good point. what came first, the magic or the dragons? by reading the books i believed that the dragons had come first and they revitalized the magic around the world, but now that you say it, i think that it was kinda the opposite...

maybe something awakened the magic again and luckily Daenerys stepped to the pyre when it was finally possible to hatch the eggs, because for what we know Targs have been doing it for so long and they all die with the fire. Maybe it's something in her blood or some spell that protects her, maybe the Lord of Light does it or maybe it was because of the human sacrifice she made.

Now answering the topic, I don't think Varys was truly working with the objective of she becoming queen, I think he wants Aegon Targarien to be King

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There are two major (I think) changes to the story Varys tells Tyrion in the novels and the story Varys tells Tyrion in the show. The story from the books:

“One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long, hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke. … Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurer's trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead.”

The story from the show (this is as accurate as I can make from watching on my tv and using my remote):

As a boy I traveled with a troop of actors through the free cities. One day in Myr, a certain man made my master an offer to tempting to refuse. I feared the man meant to use me as I heard some men used little boys. But what he wanted was far worse. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a hooked blade he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. He burned my parts in a brazier. The flames turned blue and I heard a voice answer his call. I still dream of that night. Not of the sorcerer. Not of his blade. I dream of the voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, a conjurer's trick? I don't know. But the sorcerer called and a voice answered. And ever since that day, I have hated magic and all those who practice it. Well, you can see why I was eager to aid you in your fight against Stannis and his red priestess. As symbolic revenge, of sorts.

I have bolded the two sections that I think are very different between the two. The first is where Varys makes the claim he did not understand the words they spoke. This was left out of the tv version. I think this leaves a stronger impression that Varys actually learned something in that ritual and that is what haunts and drives Varys now. The second change is where Varys claims to know all the conjurer's tricks. This is a strong indication that, although Varys claims to hate magic and magic users, he is very knowledgeable about magic. It doesn't mean he uses magic, but he knows far more about the subject than is generally understood.

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Personally, I think the others awakening after so long is what may have reintroduced magic back into the world. If you look at the series of events, their presence was what we first find out about. However I know that dragons until recently have only been extinct for what 150 yrs or so, and that may have been only bc of the maesters at the citadel.

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How do we even know that Varys is helping Dany? He's helping Aegon VI at the moment and it's currently unknown if he's a Targaryen.

Awesome Oberyn Martell mentioned that Illyrio didn't think her and Viserys would survive the Dothraki, this implies that they were just trying to get them out of the way. They were successful enough with Viserys but even those guys couldn't predict that Dany and Drogo would fall in love.

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Varys does know and use all the non-magical tricks of disguise, he does not practice magic himself.

As to the importance of his hatred of magic:

My interpretation is that he is opposed to those who practice magic, not so much to magic as an abstract concept. He suffered from the hands of a sorcerer, just as Daenerys has (repeatedly), so they actually have something in common. Varys should know about the connection between magic and House Targaryen. This is not some occult lore, but rather well known among the educated people in both Essos and Westeros. Especially to someone who worked for a Targaryen king quite some time, and who continues to work with members of House Targaryen (Viserys/Daenerys, and Aegon VI), or uses the Targaryen name to his advantage.

Illyrio indicates that Dany's dragons changed the game. But he was the one who enabled this 'game changer' by giving Dany the eggs in the first place. Illyrio, Connington and the Golden Company wanted to use Dany's dragons to conquer Westeros. It would be stupid to conclude that Varys did not approve of this decision, nor is it impossible that Varys and Illyrio actually wanted Dany to hatch the eggs. If you think about it, they would never have told the Golden Company or Connington if they had reason to believe that Dany could pull this off...

So I don't see Varys opposed to magic per se, the way certain factions at the Citadel seem to be fighting magic.

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As far as I know Ilyrio and Varys never truly suported Danny. Everything they did was to put Eagon on the throne, at least for Ilyrio.

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thats a good point. what came first, the magic or the dragons? by reading the books i believed that the dragons had come first and they revitalized the magic around the world, but now that you say it, i think that it was kinda the opposite...

maybe something awakened the magic again and luckily Daenerys stepped to the pyre when it was finally possible to hatch the eggs, because for what we know Targs have been doing it for so long and they all die with the fire. Maybe it's something in her blood or some spell that protects her, maybe the Lord of Light does it or maybe it was because of the human sacrifice she made.

Actually I think that they came simultaneously, not one because of the other as its consequence.

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As far as I know Ilyrio and Varys never truly suported Danny. Everything they did was to put Eagon on the throne, at least for Ilyrio.

Like sending her Belwas, Whitebeard and trying to send her Aegon, Jon Con, and Tyrion?

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Then what to make of his conversation with Tyrion before Blackwater about there being nowhere to hide if she arrives with dragons? Is he lying?

Yes , was that in the book (books)?

Now in that case he Varys seems to be talking about the installation of the Red God as Westeros's religion , so was Varys's problem with the religion of R'hllor.

Thoros of Myr and Melisandre of Asshai have done magic , but I will be darned if see how it's connected with Danny and the dragons.

Seems some of this was being done before the dragons were even born.

Do the followers of R'hllor want to establish a theocracy?

Even in Essos where the 'Red' religion seems more popular the books have given no indication a state of religious rulers.

The Red God religion seems divided , Melisandre want's these nutball sacrifices while Thoros is not into that at all.

Then we have The Great Other which , it seems is R'hllor is to be at war with. The Coming of Winter and the Others seems seem on the road to attacking Westeros , but we don't know why the hell they want to do that.

Melisandre seems to want Stanis to be the agent who stops The Great Other.

She keeps telling him he is Azor Ahai reborn, but Azor Ahai, even tho he defeated the Others did not seem himself to be a supernatural being.

It's all very confusing.

In ADwD Dany has a very short segment where she thinks about religions and war and decides she does not want to be part of it. She in fact does not seem to be religious.

I can't figure the Illyrio-Varys thing , Illyrio seems to actually be helping Dany , while being in cahoots with Varys whose stance on Dany we really don't know. He may have passed the info that Ser Jorah used to save Dany's life from the poisoned wine.

The whole thing is confusing as hell in the books because I don't think George is really interested in religion and his 'magic lite' seem to be both connected and not connected with religion!

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I see two views here that might be combined.

Illyrio was supporting Aegon from the start (after all, he should be first in line right?) and wanted to get rid of Viserys and Dany to avoid possible conflicts and Targ loyalty being scattered.

Now when Dany hatched her dragons, the whole game changes; at first she was not important at all since she was a shy little girl. Now she showed some leadership qualities and had the most powerfull card in hand. Sending Aegon to join Dany could make them bond and prevent later rivalry and she now had so much to add to Aegon's claim and education to significantly improve the chance of success for Aegon.

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In the show last season, they conveniently put in Pyat Pree saying that the warlock's magic is stronger because dragons have surfaced once again. GRRM told DD a lot about books 6 and 7 so I do think they are foreshadowing and revealing some things. If Varys truly does hate magic, all the more reason for him to support Aegon, who I personally believe to be the mummer's dragon and is not a real Targaryen. I don't think they added Vary's little quip about hating magic for no reason.

I also can't figure out the Illyrio-Varys relationship. Illyrio was the one who gave Dany the dragons eggs, wether or not he actually expected fr them to hatch, I have no clue.

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In the show last season, they conveniently put in Pyat Pree saying that the warlock's magic is stronger because dragons have surfaced once again. GRRM told DD a lot about books 6 and 7 so I do think they are foreshadowing and revealing some things. If Varys truly does hate magic, all the more reason for him to support Aegon, who I personally believe to be the mummer's dragon and is not a real Targaryen. I don't think they added Vary's little quip about hating magic for no reason.

I also can't figure out the Illyrio-Varys relationship. Illyrio was the one who gave Dany the dragons eggs, wether or not he actually expected fr them to hatch, I have no clue.

A fat lot of good for Pree , to have your magic strengthened, if it did not keep you from getting flambed!

Strange Illyrio also sent the ships and crew to help Danny too.

If Illyrio and Vary's are such good friends have this mysterious conspiracy the small evidence is they are out to help the Targaryens , if Aegon is the real thing.

Trying to figure this out will drive you crazy!

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