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Harrad

Who Deserves to Rule Westeros?

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I don't have a problem with this, but the two of them will. :D

Possibly, but it's not impossible to think Stannis would accept a new Targaryen ruler - remember rebelling against the Targaryens was the most difficult choice he ever made. The other requirement is that Daenerys opens her eyes, which seems difficult, but from a story-telling perspective, it would be unfortunate if she has no character development. I also made this analogy with King Torhen and Aegon the Conqueror - if Stannis controls the North and Daenerys the South, history could repeat itself. Stannis may be rigid, he is also gradually becoming more pragmatic, and willing to listen to good advice from Davos, who would make the best Hand of the King ever, imo...

Do people really think Stannis deserves to rule?

Yes. Especially more than for instance Tommen.

The point of GRRM that he makes over and over (think about it)--is that none of these clowns deserve that.

That's an interpretation, but not a fact.

While a monarchy is far from an ideal, this shouldn't affect the legitimacy of single persons acting within that monarchy. Once the system is in place, its rules should be abided, and by those rules Stannis should be allowed to rule, otherwise you get chaos like you do now. Even if you believe Stannis would make a bad King 'the most disadvantageous peace is better than the most just war.', and Stannis not being King doesn't solve the problems you have with the institution of monarchy, on the contrary. We also shouldn't look at Westeros through the eyes of 21st century people and judge them by those standards... That said I believe a certain guy named Littlefinger might try to bring about the end of the monarchy, and there may be no monarchy left at the end of the story.

Stannis has one thing going for him...he was a decent warrior, but not nearly as good as his older brother or even Ned Stark...or probably Selmy or Jaime.

Actually a little more than that. He is against corruption and tried to address glaring problems (like Janos Slynt's corruption) which Robert completely ignored.

He's also willing to listen to good advice (Davos, Jon) and is certainly an intelligent man.

As for his skill in battle, you could argue that, by being locked in Storm's End, he never got to shine during the rebellion - but he did his job, and he held it, and he constructed the royal navy and conquered Dragonstone... His victory over the Iron Fleet was quite formidable, and so far he's also proven to be an able commander, defeating the Wildlings and Asha's Ironborn on unfamiliar ground. He was defeated once at the Blackwater, but so was Robert defeated by Randyll Tarly, and when it's less than 20 000 against 6,800 defenders, Tyrion's tribesmen and 80,000 reinforcements and the guy put in charge of his fleet messes up and a lot of his soldiers are complete fools (oh god it's Renly!) you can't really hold him accountable for that. I definitely wouldn't put him below the others, he's simply less glamour and shine than others. In Westeros, we don't really have anyone with a much better military record than him.

He's more bloodthirsty than the Hound: he murdered his own brother before the Hound could murder his.

My god, that again... Renly attacked him for no reason (bloodthirsty isn't it?), and was ready to have him killed on the battlefield, Stannis gave Renly the opportunity to come back on his decision, and then defended himself. Renly says multiple times he never believed Stannis would accept him or surrender: he was completely prepared to kill his older brother.

His claim is that he is the oldest surviving brother of the leader of the rebellion against the last "legitimate King."

I believe a King should get a chance to rule, but can rule his legitimacy. A King has duties too. Aerys forsook his duties when he started killing off his own bannermen, so the rebellion against him was justified in my eyes. Stannis hasn't been given the opportunity to rule, so he couldn't have lost his legitimacy yet.

Likewise Daenerys is the last survivor of the that same previously "legitimate King." The point of a hereditary monarchy is that its a bad system of government. Why? Because bad people like Good King Jeoff and the Mad King Targayeon inevitably come to power. It in the genes. The Wildlings chose their Kings, and they have to remain worthy to stay Kings. Not sure if they have formal term limits but it amounts to that. I get the feeling that most of the humans on Earth--nevermind Westeros--would vote to have a King--and thus lose their votes.

I'm pretty sure Mance subdued a lot of his clansmen with violence, as well. It can be a bad system, typically it is when incest and plotting scheming bastards like Cersei get involved... Stannis is not guilty of the bad things the monarchial system have brought in his time, so he shouldn't see his right to rule revoked by that. Nevertheless Westeros has known good kings and periods of peace, as well, even under Aerys there was a prosperous peace for a while. Supporting Stannis does not mean we think it would also be an ideal situation on Earth... I simply don't hold Westerosi to the same standards as 21st century people, since Westerosi simply don't seem to know anything else but monarchies...

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I would really love to see Stannis end up on the Iron Throne, but i have a feeling that by the end of the last book there wont be an throne to sit on. But Stannis does not need the to sit on the throne to solidify his legacy, he has already bought the realm some time from destruction by protecting the Wall and providing some stability in the defense against the Others.

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Stannis, not only does he have the best claim, but he has proven he is a good leader. When the nights watch requested help from the 5 Kings, only Stannis responded. He came to the protection of the realm when no one else did.

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Stannis may have the technical claim from his brother's death, but Robert was a usurper, and conquered the throne from Mad king.

I suppose though since he and his family conquered long before that, question should be: who should have the throne. Not who has the best claim to it.

Stannis is a good leader yes, but lacks compassion or empathy.

Danny has those qualities, yet still has a long way to go... wouldn't rule her out though..

Tommen: absolutely not. Let him have his childhood.

Gendry has chosen his path, but would make a good simple honest king.

Prince Aegon is also coming into his own, perhaps to join with Danny. He would have a very good claim being Rhaegar's son, and shows kingly qualities through his devoutness, study, and training. He has led a life of honor so far.

Finally, and bear with me... JON SNOW. Yes. I think he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark.

We don't know for sure that Ned slept with his paramour when he was away at war. We know that Robert had many women during and after the war, but Ned was always an honest man and only made that one mistake apparently.

It can be argued that when Lyanna died and she asked Ned to promise her something (very important), that we are meant to think it has to do with burying her with the other Starks under Winterfell.

It can also be argued that what she was really trying to have Ned promise was to keep her child safe. The love child of her and Rhaegar when he stole her away.

What do you think?

Valar Morghulis

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Stannis, not only does he have the best claim, but he has proven he is a good leader. When the nights watch requested help from the 5 Kings, only Stannis responded. He came to the protection of the realm when no one else did.

Probably the only reason Stannis responded was because he was kicked out of Dragonstone and he was homeless. The Night's Watch is the next best place to go, to claim help from the Watch to rebuild his empire to claim the Iron Throne.

Jokes aside, i still believe Stannis Baratheon is the most fit for rule. Daenerys is so-so. I believe it's either the Targaryen and Stannis that will claim the throne, because the Lannisters are in shambles after Tywin's and Kevan's death. The Baratheons are nothing but rebels. That leaves much of the current power to the Tyrell's, which future remains unclear.

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I don't understand how people ignores the very basic fact about the "thrones" and "rightful claims" Does Stannis' claim best? Oh yes? So you forgot that according to Targaryens Robert is a Usurper. It was their throne, Targaryens made the Iron Throne. So maybe Dany or Aegon has a better claim. But then you are forgotting that before them there were 7 kings in the realm, and this goes on...

If the subject is aThrone, there is no rightful claim; there is stronger claim. During the 7 kingdoms, all those Houses were stronger than their vassals, so they were Kings. When Targaryens come to Westeros they were even stronger than the Kings (read it as rightful claim). When Robert and Ned marched against Targaryens, they were stronger with the help of Lannisters, so Robert sat the Iron Throne. At the end will see that the stronger will sat on the Iron throne, may it be Dany, Stannis, some Lannister... Even it may be the Moonboy, if the can find some 20000 warriors to fight for him.

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I like to agree with the above comment that come the end of the 7th book there will no longer be an Iron Throne to sit on. GRRM has said the end of the story will be "bittersweet", and so maybe the Iron Throne will be destroyed and the realm will return to its separate kingdoms with a different ruler in each. Ah, peace at last.

If GRRM plans on the final outcome to be based on the War of Roses, then Henry VIII would most certainly be Aegon... I would only assume. Does Aegon deserve to rule? Maybe... but as a reader I don't know enough about him nor his story to either care or want to grant him that right.

I understand the concept of winning a throne by conquest, but I do feel that Dany's claim to the throne is better than Stannis' claim. Didn't Robert only sit the Throne for 12 years? The Targaryens were there for ages! Twelve years is nothing but a speck in history. A mere blip. Robert stole the throne, and right now it's as up for grabs as it's ever been. One of the Tyrell's could end up sitting it for all we know. Maybe Aegon will take it and then Dany will come in with her dragons and destroy it all... as out of character as that would seem, given her quest. It'll be exciting to see how it all ends. When the 7th book is released I plan on booking a week off of work to read it :)

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Victarion Greyjoy! Nobody? :( not a popular one, I know, but he's awesome! :D

Probably the only reason Stannis responded was because he was kicked out of Dragonstone and he was homeless. The Night's Watch is the next best place to go, to claim help from the Watch to rebuild his empire to claim the Iron Throne.

Jokes aside, i still believe Stannis Baratheon is the most fit for rule. Daenerys is so-so. I believe it's either the Targaryen and Stannis that will claim the throne, because the Lannisters are in shambles after Tywin's and Kevan's death. The Baratheons are nothing but rebels. That leaves much of the current power to the Tyrell's, which future remains unclear.

Also, is this a spoiler of Kevan's death? :(

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King Tommen, the First of His Name, of Houses Baratheon and Lannister.

King Tommen is a bastard. He is the son of Jaime and Cersei, and there is absolutely no link between Baratheon and Lannister there. Tommen is all Lannister.

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Victarion Greyjoy! Nobody? :( not a popular one, I know, but he's awesome! :D

Also, is this a spoiler of Kevan's death? :(

Eh.... sorry about that, if i spoiled Kevan's death to you. :(

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King Tommen is a bastard. He is the son of Jaime and Cersei, and there is absolutely no link between Baratheon and Lannister there. Tommen is all Lannister.

Those are vile lies about the Boy King spread by his wicked devil worshiping uncle. King Robert acknowleged paternity of all of Cersie's children on his deathbed, instructing Ned that the Iron Throne should pass to his eldest son, Joffrey.

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If Robert had known his kids were not his kids.I dont think he would have passed the throne to Stannis .I think he could have made Ned the king of westeros.

Anyways that is history now.As to who should rule now: Westeros is of the people ,it should be ruled by the people of westeros for the good of westeros and not some person who calls himself king/queen of westeros.

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Great points.

Plus, as he says many times, Stannis doesn't *want* this, it's his duty though and he will do it. For the good of the realm.

Yeah, Stannis doesn't want the throne, he's being forced to take it by his sense of duty............. sure. If it was about the good of the realm, Stannis would look for someone better to rule. He knows very well that once he takes the Iron Throne most will still not accept him and war will continue so if it was about practicing good, he'd look for someone that every kingdom would actually vouch to and not himself.

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Yeah, Stannis doesn't want the throne, he's being forced to take it by his sense of duty............. sure. If it was about the good of the realm, Stannis would look for someone better to rule. He knows very well that once he takes the Iron Throne most will still not accept him and war will continue so if it was about practicing good, he'd look for someone that every kingdom would actually vouch to and not himself.

Except for one thing: Who would they vouch for without a legitimate claim?

Legitimate claimants:

Joffrey (Due to being believed to be Robert's son.)

Tommen (Same as above)

Myrcella (See above.)

Daenerys (Of a dynasty he helped overthrow. He's dutybound, not stupidbound.)

(f)Aegon (Same as above. May be fake.)

Robert's Bastards (Who would except one known as a bastard, lacking court education, as their King?)

Not exactly like he can just walk into KL and go: "Hey. You look like you'd be a good king. C'mere."

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You speak as if Stannis had shown any interest to look for the best-suited claimant. The best for the realm would certainly be if the North and Riverlands were granted their independence but no, Stannis went all "whiny" because apparently Robb was stealing "his kingdom".

I like Stannis, but I believe his sense of duty and justice cloud most of his judgment.

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You speak as if Stannis had shown any interest to look for the best-suited claimant. The best for the realm would certainly be if the North and Riverlands were granted their independence but no, Stannis went all "whiny" because apparently Robb was stealing "his kingdom".

I like Stannis, but I believe his sense of duty and justice cloud most of his judgment.

What implies that Robb would be a good king? He was a kid, surrounded by a number of some of the region's greatest military commanders, with a formidable force, and high morale. We do not see even a moment of his logistical or domestic abilities as a ruler. You saw King Bobby, he was a great fighter, only lost a pair of battles in his military career, yet he turned out to be a horrible king. We don't know that Robb would be a good king, and neither did Stannis. The best option is to go by the laws of the land, since a "good" king is just about the most subjective way to go about it.

Stannis, while certainly not morally perfect, goes by a sense of duty and lawfulness that would at least allow the kingdom to freaking stabilize. That's what the Seven Kingdoms needs in Winter is a sense of stability, you rock the boat, you threaten to capsize it.

Robb is a good leader in wartime, Renly probably a good spring/summer King. Stannis, is a good Winter King. Any coincidence that the Stark Kings of the North, who were also called Kings of Winter are referred to as a "hard" people?

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