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Harrad

Who Deserves to Rule Westeros?

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Stannis because he has managed to be a contender for so long without being killed.

Just staying alive while playing the Game of Thrones is the most mortal of games.

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I'd consider myself a Stannis fangirl. And there is one ultimate Stannis fanboy.. That is DAVOS.

http://25.media.tumb...ou6cwo1_250.gif

HAHA.

ON topic, who DESERVES to rule westeros.. hm.. I'm actually going to say Noone, right now. The one that defeats the Walkers and saves the realm, that is the person who deserves to rule Westeros.

Edit: The one who leads the forces that defeat the walkers*

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I can see two people that I consider anywhere near "deserving" in terms of actually caring more about the realm than their own personal power and influence: Stannis and Jon Snow. Since these two are (despite somewhat heated discussions) effectively allied, eventually one will have to give way to the other if they both live long enough to be rivals. If Snow's parentage really *does* turn out to be Rhaegar + Lyanna, Stannis might actually give way - knowing that it was only with reluctance (and because Robert was summoned to be executed without trial) that he joined the rebellion, and knowing that otherwise Rhaegar would have been Aerys's rightful heir, and if Snow is Rhaegar's son, then Stannis might be willing to step aside for what he could convince himself to be "the rightful line of succession". If not, then Snow will be the one to step aside: I do not believe they will ever come into conflict, unless one of them dies and rises as a wight or an Other.

No, not Daenerys. She has shown little but an aptitude for gaining power by force and treachery, and no aptitude whatsoever for actually ruling: she still believes that it's her divine, dragonborn right to rule somewhere, anywhere, wherever she goes, but even when she has got power by force, she doesn't know how to keep it. And the "force" she uses to win power - the dragons - are not to be relied on, they don't accept orders, are growing wilder by the day, and have already become pretty much monsters that need feeding or they start killing people.

And I seriously do NOT understand why anybody likes Victarion Greyjoy. He's a murderer, rapist and looter, with no real ideas beyond that. Even Euron has more ideas and ambitions beyond that. And his vices are worse than his brother's.

Tyrion, at his best, was an effective Hand when given the chance. However he still very much has a dark side - and in many ways is still possibly not really thinking clearly about the situation, and is still too concerned about his own position. (Oddly enough, when he was acting as Hand, he genuinely seemed to care more about the kingdom than about his own position or popularity. Although this is possibly because he believed himself at the time to be secure in being the next heir to Casterly Rock - the thing that Tywin then denied him upon his return to Kings Landing: he really hasn't been the same since then.) Of course, one thing he can never be is a King - for better or worse, even were he the wisest around, even were he the kindest person around, nobody would accept a semi-crippled dwarf on the throne. But if given a chance, he could be a good Hand.

Aegon? Whatever Varys claims for him - and this may possibly have been for the benefit of the "little birds", since some are now reporting to Qyburn who is reporting to Cersei - I don't see him as a particularly effective ruler. At best, he's the Targaryen answer to Robb Stark - still believing, whatever Varys said about duty, that it's his right to rule (and Connington is close to encouraging him in this). At worst, he's an impostor, even if Connington believes him to be true, and still one whose primary concern is to rule the realm rather than serve it.

Littlefinger? The sooner he dies, the sooner I shall be pleased. How has he survived so long even though nobody actually likes him, but somehow he's convinced them all he's a necessary evil?

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It's not about "deserving". Besides, why would you want to condemn anyone to that?! I'm not sure I would wish ruling the Seven Kingdoms on my worst enemy! I doubt I could bring myself to hate them quite that much ;)

I think the whole point of Aegon was to introduce a character who didn't necessarily deserve to rule by order of succession, but deserved to rule because he was trained for it.

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I think the whole point of Aegon was to introduce a character who didn't necessarily deserve to rule by order of succession, but deserved to rule because he was trained for it.

Hmm...you may be right. Where I am coming from is that ruling isn't really about "deserving" at all. In a feudal system where might makes right anyone has only that which they can take and keep.

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Who deserves to rule Westeros? Someone who can unite the currently divided Seven Kingdoms. Right now, no one is able to do it so the war will continue until who knows when.

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To quote William Money: "deserve's got nothing to do with it".

I can't believe how much Stannis love there is. I also love how every bad thing Stannis does people make excuses for him. Let's see, he allowed Maester Cressen to die despite him considering him to be a father to him. He murdered his brother through treachery and sorcery. He was attempting to murder his nephew until Davos (a truly just and good man) saved him. He plans on sacrificing a newborn baby because it has "king's blood". He is foolish enough to actually begin believing he is Azor Ahai reborn. All this because the "throne is his by rights". He could have easily crushed the Lannister's if he had joined with Robb and given up the claim to the North (Robb did not want to sit the Iron Throne, he only wanted the North because all of his bannermen wanted him to rule them instead of the southern lords). But Stannis couldn't bear to give anything up (it's my ball and if I can't win I'm taking it home, waaahhh!!!) so he allowed the war to drag out costing many more lives. He says he is just, but only acts just when it suits him or benefits him personally. He'll never become king because by his own admission he doesn't deserve it: "It was justice. A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act a good. Each should have its own reward." Stannis and his "sacrifices" to Rhollor will not go unanswered and he will receive his reward in the end.

I think the following folks would make a better king/ruler than Stannis:

1) Dany - she is not only a great strategist by outwitting many of the people she has come across, but also has compassion. People love her and her brand of justice seems based more on right or wrong than simply honor. She's far from perfect, but she continues to show that she learns from her past experiences.

2) Tyrion - easily the smartest of any of the people who have been mentioned. He has Tywin's mind without being nearly as ruthless. He's proven himself a good leader when given the chance.

3) Jon Snow - who I believe to be the Flying Wolf in Bran's dreams due to his Stark and Targaryen blood. He also proves himself to be an incredibly smart leader and gives Stannis the best council he ever had. His ability to make who was once thought to be your biggest enemy in the Wildling's to become your ally against who your true enemy is was brilliant. He also learns that honor is not the most important thing, but knowing the difference between right and wrong is.

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To quote William Money: "deserve's got nothing to do with it".

3) Jon Snow - who I believe to be the Flying Wolf in Bran's dreams due to his Stark and Targaryen blood. He also proves himself to be an incredibly smart leader and gives Stannis the best council he ever had. His ability to make who was once thought to be your biggest enemy in the Wildling's to become your ally against who your true enemy is was brilliant. He also learns that honor is not the most important thing, but knowing the difference between right and wrong is.

Your whole post was great, agreed with most of what you said. But I just wanted to ask, how do you think Jon would be able to rule now...?

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Your whole post was great, agreed with most of what you said. But I just wanted to ask, how do you think Jon would be able to rule now...?

Well, since we are unsure of his fate he can easily be removed from the equation if and when we find out what is to become of him. Personally I think he'll make it through, since too much of his story is still a mystery and one that GRRM has been giving us clues to since book one. Of course that doesn't mean everything, but I think it tips the scale in his favor to making it through his current situation. I personally believe the "Song of Fire & Ice" means Dany (fire) and Jon (Ice) will eventually win the game of thrones.

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To quote William Money: "deserve's got nothing to do with it".

I can't believe how much Stannis love there is. I also love how every bad thing Stannis does people make excuses for him. Let's see, he allowed Maester Cressen to die despite him considering him to be a father to him. He murdered his brother through treachery and sorcery. He was attempting to murder his nephew until Davos (a truly just and good man) saved him. He plans on sacrificing a newborn baby because it has "king's blood". He is foolish enough to actually begin believing he is Azor Ahai reborn. All this because the "throne is his by rights". He could have easily crushed the Lannister's if he had joined with Robb and given up the claim to the North (Robb did not want to sit the Iron Throne, he only wanted the North because all of his bannermen wanted him to rule them instead of the southern lords). But Stannis couldn't bear to give anything up (it's my ball and if I can't win I'm taking it home, waaahhh!!!) so he allowed the war to drag out costing many more lives. He says he is just, but only acts just when it suits him or benefits him personally. He'll never become king because by his own admission he doesn't deserve it: "It was justice. A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act a good. Each should have its own reward." Stannis and his "sacrifices" to Rhollor will not go unanswered and he will receive his reward in the end.

I don't like Stannis on the Iron Throne either, but there are so many Stannis spies in the forum solet's keep it cool before they come down on us.

I think the following folks would make a better king/ruler than Stannis:

1) Dany - she is not only a great strategist by outwitting many of the people she has come across, but also has compassion. People love her and her brand of justice seems based more on right or wrong than simply honor. She's far from perfect, but she continues to show that she learns from her past experiences.

I agree with Daenerys, but she is still very young and has a lot of things to learn. She messed up very badly in DWD but like what the book has said, a crown should not sit easy on the head. So even if she tries to be a good ruler doesn't necessary mean that everything will go smoothly on her. She only has two books left to prove her worth so she better learn quickly. And to add: many people believe she is turning mad, but I don't think so. If you compare her to Cersei, Dany wants to learn how to rule while Cersei just wants to rule. Both made mistakes, but I believe one of them will learn from those and the other one just won't care.

2) Tyrion - easily the smartest of any of the people who have been mentioned. He has Tywin's mind without being nearly as ruthless. He's proven himself a good leader when given the chance.

I agree Tyrion is very smart, but I personally don't want him to rule as king. Maybe there are some foreshadowings like Jon's thought that he "stood tall as a king." I'm going to ripped all the Tyrion's pages of my book if that ever happens.

3) Jon Snow - who I believe to be the Flying Wolf in Bran's dreams due to his Stark and Targaryen blood. He also proves himself to be an incredibly smart leader and gives Stannis the best council he ever had. His ability to make who was once thought to be your biggest enemy in the Wildling's to become your ally against who your true enemy is was brilliant. He also learns that honor is not the most important thing, but knowing the difference between right and wrong is.

I like Jon Snow, but for once, I want him to remember what Maester Aemon taught him about having to make a choice, or his promise to the Old Bear that he won't run again 'coz his place is in that bloody cold Wall.

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Your whole post was great, agreed with most of what you said. But I just wanted to ask, how do you think Jon would be able to rule now...?

If he becomes UnJon, I'm gonna laugh so loud to those who would hail him as their king. Since I cling more of the idea that he will survive his assassination attempt, I'm pretty sure he will choose to stay in the Wall and fight the Others once he recovers. I don't know though if Bowen Marsh and company would give him a chance to survive. If some people help him escape, surely he's still bound to keep his vows. And if he recovers and accepts a kingship being offered to him without being officially released of his vow, that would make him an oathbreaker. Even if the Wall falls, he is still a man of the NW; the Wall could be gone but the NW did not cease to exist along with it.

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I don't like Stannis on the Iron Throne either, but there are so many Stannis spies in the forum solet's keep it cool before they come down on us.

I agree with Daenerys, but she is still very young and has a lot of things to learn. She messed up very badly in DWD but like what the book has said, a crown should not sit easy on the head. So even if she tries to be a good ruler doesn't necessary mean that everything will go smoothly on her. She only has two books left to prove her worth so she better learn quickly. And to add: many people believe she is turning mad, but I don't think so. If you compare her to Cersei, Dany wants to learn how to rule while Cersei just wants to rule. Both made mistakes, but I believe one of them will learn from those and the other one just won't care.

I agree Tyrion is very smart, but I personally don't want him to rule as king. Maybe there are some foreshadowings like Jon's thought that he "stood tall as a king." I'm going to ripped all the Tyrion's pages of my book if that ever happens.

I like Jon Snow, but for once, I want him to remember what Maester Aemon taught him about having to make a choice, or his promise to the Old Bear that he won't run again 'coz his place is in that bloody cold Wall.

Wow, I never heard anyone compare Cersei and Dany before. There characters aren't even remotely similiar. Cersei is the most paranoid character I've ever read and her paranoia dictates every decision she makes. I agree, Dany is young and inexperienced, and she has made some mistakes, but the thing with her is she seems to actually learn from her mistakes. She is constantly reminding herself in her head of her failures and mistakes she made in the past so that she doesn't make the same mistake again. I think Dany is going to do a lot of growing up in the next two books as she continues to learn more about her families history and while they may have been the "legal" rulers they were NOT all good rulers.

I see you are not a Tyrion fan. I think he shows the most heart of any of the major Lannister characters. Combine that with his intelligence and he might not make such a bad ruler.

I hear what you are saying about Jon Snow, but that only holds true if you place honor above right and wrong. I think Jon Snow did initially, but with all he's been through he doesn't feel that is the right way to live your life. It's not about living your life with honor or dying with honor, it's about doing the right thing for the greater good. Most of the time the honorable thing to do is the right thing, but not always and I think Jon is the only character on the Wall that knows this and wants to live his life accordingly. He's the only person who doesn't look at the Wildlings as savages, he sees them as people. Different, but still people who deserve the same right to life as the people of Westeros.

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I think Dany's story is most impressive. She started from being sold as a slave, so to say, and went on to sack cities. With Varys as her Hand to give her the counsel she sometimes needs, I think she would be a noble and kind leader.

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Wow, I never heard anyone compare Cersei and Dany before. There characters aren't even remotely similiar. Cersei is the most paranoid character I've ever read and her paranoia dictates every decision she makes. I agree, Dany is young and inexperienced, and she has made some mistakes, but the thing with her is she seems to actually learn from her mistakes. She is constantly reminding herself in her head of her failures and mistakes she made in the past so that she doesn't make the same mistake again. I think Dany is going to do a lot of growing up in the next two books as she continues to learn more about her families history and while they may have been the "legal" rulers they were NOT all good rulers.

Glad that someone else sees her not turning Mad Aerys 2.0. I've seen that debated to death in this forum a hell lot of time. If AFFC and ADWD are combined, we can compare the two Queens who think they are meant to rule. Their difference that I notice: Dany thinks ruling is a skill, while Cersei thinks she is made for that.

I see you are not a Tyrion fan. I think he shows the most heart of any of the major Lannister characters. Combine that with his intelligence and he might not make such a bad ruler.

I like him actually, and I cheer him every time he outwits people like Littlefinger. But his story in ADWD is such a pain for me to read. Haven't given up on him completely though.

I hear what you are saying about Jon Snow, but that only holds true if you place honor above right and wrong. I think Jon Snow did initially, but with all he's been through he doesn't feel that is the right way to live your life. It's not about living your life with honor or dying with honor, it's about doing the right thing for the greater good. Most of the time the honorable thing to do is the right thing, but not always and I think Jon is the only character on the Wall that knows this and wants to live his life accordingly. He's the only person who doesn't look at the Wildlings as savages, he sees them as people. Different, but still people who deserve the same right to life as the people of Westeros.

I agree Jon is a good leader and I also approve of his decision to let the Wildlings in the Wall. I doubt though if being a good person (or having the blood of kings) is enough to make someone an effective ruler - that is contrary to what GRRM has said: "An awful lot of fantasy, and even some great fantasy, falls into the mistake of assuming that a good man will be a good king, that all that is necessary is to be a decent human being and when you're king everything will go swimmingly." He also said that there are terrible human beings in the past but great leaders. So even if Jon is this and that, or did this and that, don't see him uniting the seven kingdoms or people accepting him as their king so easily.

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Stannis and Daenerys together.

Stannis.

..says StannisandDaeny

Stannis

Stannis is the only one that has a claim to it, and the only one that's worthy of being King.

For gods shake.. why Stannis? Just because he is the younger brother of Robert who became king because of a rebellion? Eddard Stark could have been king as well, but Robert Baratheon became king because Edd Stark didn't want to. Both had no legal and typically no right to get the throne, and as far as there are still existing descendants from the Targaryen family, neither their relatives or their descendants have a solid and rightful claim for the Throne.. That for the technical part of who deserves to rule Westeros. BUT:

I don't understand how people ignores the very basic fact about the "thrones" and "rightful claims" Does Stannis' claim best? Oh yes? So you forgot that according to Targaryens Robert is a Usurper. It was their throne, Targaryens made the Iron Throne. So maybe Dany or Aegon has a better claim. But then you are forgotting that before them there were 7 kings in the realm, and this goes on...

If the subject is aThrone, there is no rightful claim; there is stronger claim. During the 7 kingdoms, all those Houses were stronger than their vassals, so they were Kings. When Targaryens come to Westeros they were even stronger than the Kings (read it as rightful claim). When Robert and Ned marched against Targaryens, they were stronger with the help of Lannisters, so Robert sat the Iron Throne. At the end will see that the stronger will sat on the Iron throne, may it be Dany, Stannis, some Lannister... Even it may be the Moonboy, if the can find some 20000 warriors to fight for him.

I couldn't agree more. The Throne belongs the one who is stronger. In my opinion Deanerys has the best claim, but we don't know after the 5th book if she will be able to have the best army.

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Dany's destiny lies else where she will never reach Westeros.

Jon's destiny also lies else where he'll never rule.

Stannis will die so he won't.

Honestly,nobody "deserves" to rule,i say let the people rise up declare this whole thing folly and do away with the monarchy.

Appoint a rep from North,south,East and West.Plus elect a rep from the faith of the seven,Red Lot,Old God's,Maesters,Giants,COTF etc. Go all round-table with no one being the head and make the realm a republic.Booyah!

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If he becomes UnJon, I'm gonna laugh so loud to those who would hail him as their king. Since I cling more of the idea that he will survive his assassination attempt, I'm pretty sure he will choose to stay in the Wall and fight the Others once he recovers. I don't know though if Bowen Marsh and company would give him a chance to survive. If some people help him escape, surely he's still bound to keep his vows. And if he recovers and accepts a kingship being offered to him without being officially released of his vow, that would make him an oathbreaker. Even if the Wall falls, he is still a man of the NW; the Wall could be gone but the NW did not cease to exist along with it.

Exactly. Him becoming UnJon is just what I'm imagining. I can't see him recovering from what he went through as anything but UnJon. And the people of Westeros would just love someone like that as their king, wouldn't they? Because they're so accepting of people who are "different", cough, Tyrion.

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