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Harrad

Who Deserves to Rule Westeros?

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Stannis is the only one that has a claim to it, and the only one that's worthy of being King.

You think? Worthy by what? I mean, how he can be worthy, if he made a lot of stupid things, he is a kinslayer, he brought a new god, quite thirty for blood, besides, he is not flexible enough. He would make a good Hand, though, I think. What does worthy mean anyway in this context?

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Great points.

Plus, as he says many times, Stannis doesn't *want* this, it's his duty though and he will do it. For the good of the realm.

Really? Where did he say that? I've always had absolutely different view of this situation: Stannis killed his brother because of the throne, well, and because of his pride, of course. He almost screams of wanting to be a king, otherwise he wouldn't listen a single word from Melisandre. She hooked him by telling him that he is the rightful and that he will be a king, as well as that he is special, AA etc. Everything else about "for the good of the realm" and that if he looses the realm of men is doomed to the darkness etc is bullshit (sorry, I just feel that way), because she frankly uses Stannis for her own purpose.

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Stannis, not only does he have the best claim, but he has proven he is a good leader. When the nights watch requested help from the 5 Kings, only Stannis responded. He came to the protection of the realm when no one else did.

He came because Mel told him, otherwise he would sit and make plans how to take a throne. But, yes, it was a good deed, but it alone doesn't make him a good king.

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Who deserves to rule Westeros? Someone who can unite the currently divided Seven Kingdoms. Right now, no one is able to do it so the war will continue until who knows when.

Wise words, I definitely agree with that.

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You think? Worthy by what? I mean, how he can be worthy, if he made a lot of stupid things, he is a kinslayer, he brought a new god, quite thirty for blood, besides, he is not flexible enough. He would make a good Hand, though, I think. What does worthy mean anyway in this context?

Worthy means he's the only one that cares for the well being of the Realm. Renly only cared about the crown on his head, and so does Daenerys. Balon and Robb care only about the North and the Iron Islands. Stannis wanted to preserve Westeros. He fought against the rebels, but he also fought to save the Realm. To save those that supported him, and those that denied him his right to rule.

He's the one that went to the Wall. He's the one that saved the North. Robb and Renly died because of their ambitions. The Lannisters and Tyrells only want power. Stannis cares for the Realm.

Also:

Stannis isn't bloodthirsty. He was willing to offer pardons to every Lord who bent the knee and accepted him as King. What he did to Florent and Sunglass was justice. He executed them, just like Robb executed Karstark. The burning of the cannibals outside Winterfell was also justice.

Renly was a rebel and a usurper. He stole the crown from his brother, and was ready to kill him at Storm's End as well. Stannis struck first. Hell, he didn't even know that Melisandre planned on killing him until after the deed was done.

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Believe the pink letter, do ya?

If the letter were a lie and the Boltons were defeated then what purpose does the letter serve? Even if Ramsay escaped what good will come of having fake Arya returned? He won't have a chance to claim winterfell by "rights" if Stannis and his supporters are holding the castle. I want Stannis to live more than most but I don't think GRRM will give him the same death fake out that we saw with Davos.

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Or, you could subscribe to the theory that Mance himself wrote the letter, as he believes the Horn of Winter is in Winterfell, and only one with Stark blood can access it in the crypts. He (Mance) had to write the letter in a way that would shock Jon, and enrage him enough to go to Winterfell to challenge Ramsey. Just a theory. :dunno:

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Hot Pie for King? (He knows how to bake bread, he can keep the kingdom soft and delicous...)

Tormund Giantsbane? (he could end every royale decree with "Har!")

Sweet Robin of the Vale? (yep definetly, best king ever)

But Really I think Stannis should have it, he played by the rules his whole life and got nothing for it (Renly got Storms End etc...). But more importantly, Stannis would rule, stannis would make it his self appointed duty to make sure every tiny thing was being done properly.

Robert allowed the Small Council to conduct its own meetings of "less important matters" (almost everything). I beleive Stannis would attend every meeting, listen to every complainatn from every farmer (he might tell them to hurry up, but as a Kingly duty he would obliege). Stannis would let the Throne consume him, he would eventually die of sleep deprivation/stress.

Stannis isnt perfect (lacks emotional stuff) but Davos as hand would make it better, and the Iron Throne would be covered in white dust that is all that remains of Stannis's teeth. But the kingdom(s) would be better, place: better to have a king obsessed with running a country than a king in it for glory/popularity.

Maybe Stannis should jump from the book into real life.....I'd vote for him.

also: Patchface for master of coin

Stannis doesn't even read the letters that come from ravens all over the seven kingdoms now, why would you think he would be so detailed if were suddenly king? One of his big problems is he is too stubborn/pig-headed. Remember what those who know say about him: "Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, but brittle the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends." His "my way or the highway" attitude will only get him enemies as he's unwilling to compromise (not a good characteristic of a ruler). Besides there is no chance of him surviving the next two books. Heck, he's dying and withering away in the books all ready. Everyone that sees him comments on how he looks worse than the last time they saw him. His biggest problem of course is that he now believes he is Azor Ahai when we know for a fact that he is not.

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Worthy means he's the only one that cares for the well being of the Realm. Renly only cared about the crown on his head, and so does Daenerys. Balon and Robb care only about the North and the Iron Islands. Stannis wanted to preserve Westeros. He fought against the rebels, but he also fought to save the Realm. To save those that supported him, and those that denied him his right to rule.

He's the one that went to the Wall. He's the one that saved the North. Robb and Renly died because of their ambitions. The Lannisters and Tyrells only want power. Stannis cares for the Realm.

Also:

Stannis isn't bloodthirsty. He was willing to offer pardons to every Lord who bent the knee and accepted him as King. What he did to Florent and Sunglass was justice. He executed them, just like Robb executed Karstark. The burning of the cannibals outside Winterfell was also justice.

Renly was a rebel and a usurper. He stole the crown from his brother, and was ready to kill him at Storm's End as well. Stannis struck first. Hell, he didn't even know that Melisandre planned on killing him until after the deed was done.

I've never said Renly would be better: he was a pompous boy, no more no less. In fact, none of them - Stannis, Renly, Dany, Robb and definitely not Balon - are, as you say, worthy of ruling the Kingdoms. Dany has her own issues, she is ignorant in many things. Renly was just plainly stupid. Balon is (was) good where he is, he is just a pirate with huge self-importance and anger and he seem to rule his Ironmen quite well, but I think he wouldn't be able to rule the 7 Kingdoms, not mentioning that most of the Houses won't kneel before Greyjoy (pride, you see). Robb didn't even want the iron throne, at fist it was revenge he wanted and then he wanted an independence for the North, which almost all the Northmen agreed for, I would say even asked for.

And Stannis... Well, Stannis is a tricky thing. He has a lot of flows (as well as, strengths, like all the characters mentioned above ), such as stubbornness, inability to be flexible (I mean, he couldn't even make arrangements/peace with those, who had similar cause with him), pride, desire to be king (ambition) and Mel. Red God is the main his problem on the way of becoming a king. It is not Stannis, who is bloodthirsty, it is his new god. Also, bringing and establishing with power and blood new religion have never ever ended well, as a rule, such wars are the most bloody (fanatics, you see).

Ambition was Renly's thing, not Robb's. For him, as for Ned at his time, the best thing would be to live peacefully in the North, rather than being a politician. For example, Ned even didn't want to be a lord as well as the Hand, but circumstances...

As for Renly being ready to kill Stannis: I do not deny it, I've never even liked that character much (I liked him only for laughing at Joff's LionTooth sword and Arya's success of defeating him), but they both were ready to kill, idiots. Nevertheless, Stannis did it, and not even in the battle or duel. If it was Renly, who did that, I would despise Renly more. Anyway, do you really think that Renly had any chance defeating Stannis? Loras, probably, did, or Brianne, but not Renly. And, by the way, Stannis does not appreciate women much (I do not mean that he is like Renly, more like chauvinist when it concerns women), which is another flaw. (Looks, like all three Baratheons have issues in this area: one was womanizer, the other is chauvinist and the last one didn't even like them).

Once again, Stannis went to the Wall, because Mel told him so, otherwise, he would sit at home and plan what to do next, disbelieving or not taking serious the NW letter like all of them did. But it was great of him to come, I do not deny it.

As for care of people, the only one in Westeros, who does care right now, is Jon. Moreover, he succeeded in that direction (what is more he doesn't even want to rule anything).

Anyway, what does "deserve" mean? How you can be worthy or deserve the hardest, the most dangerous job ever? Can you imagine the responsibility? How does anyone of sound mind (not sure I've used that exp<b></b>ression right) want to rule Westeros, no matter claiming it by right, duty or ambition?

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He came because Mel told him, otherwise he would sit and make plans how to take a throne. But, yes, it was a good deed, but it alone doesn't make him a good king.

To me, what makes him a good King is not that he came to the Wall to defend the Realm, but that he did so because Stannis finally understood he didn't need a crown to do his duty.

A King protects the Land because its his duty, with or without a crown.

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Nobody "deserves" it, of course.

The happiest ending would be if the dragons and the others annihilate each other in a spectacular, yet ultimately pointless battle, and the claimants to the throne kill each other off. The war weary peasants and merchants shrug aside any remaining nobility as the useless parasites they always were and band together in small local groups for protection and live their lives. The maesters continue their role as non-aligned advisors and the preservers and disseminators of knowledge. Sure there is a lot of chaos involved in the transition, but could it really be any worse than what they are experiencing now?

I don't in any way expect this to happen and don't really think it would be a good ending from a story perspective, but it does seem like the happiest of all possible endings.

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Ramsay Bolton ...... not saying he deserves it .... but because GRRM favors the wicked so I wouldn't be surprised if the cruelest man in Westeros is the ruling man in Westeros.

If you were to ask me who deserves to rule Westeros it would be Tyrion Lannister ...... because he is wise and rational and can contain his emotions without abusing his power. That's the quality of a king. For example: He could have had his way with Sansa but he didn't even though he is a sex addict because he knew it was wrong. He killed his own father and kinsman because he knew he was in the wrong, so he doesn't have bias. He not Joff, defended Kings Landing against Stannis Baratheon, of course with a little help from Daddy but none the less he did it. But knowing Tyrion, he wouldn't even want to be King. Often the most deserving candidate doesn't even wish to be a candidate.

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Tyrion would objectively be the most competent, with a small council involving Dany and, if he's not dead yet, Jon.

No Jaime?

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Jon Snow. He has been a major factor throughout the books. Plus if he truly is the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaeryan, then he will not only have the entire north behind him (being a Stark), but most favor from the Southern lords of Westeros, especially considering that most of the powerful families supported the Targaeryan claim.

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theriveryeti - Okay, then. Jaime has displayed sound diplomatic sense and morals in his dealings with the winners and losers after the FIve Kings War, so I'll make him a small council member too. Jon, Dany and Jaime should ideally share a three-way role as Hand of the King, a position that could be abolished as a sop to all concerned if they get offended by a pyramidal chain of power. Jon would make a good king, but is not pragmatical enough. Daenarys is a leader first and foremost but has shown herself to be a fudger as a queen. And Jaime wouldn't want resonsibility as king. Bear in mind the first time Tyrion has talked to Jon in the first novel. Jon sees his shadow extended as he goes back to the hall and for a moment has the illusion that it's being cast by someone as tall as a king. Also, the words of the red priest to Tyrion on the boat to Essos, "a small man who casts a large shadow" indicates that Tyrion may have this future lined up in store for him, along with the fact he might be actually riding a dragon. I'm hardly alone in thinking there's sufficient hints or evidence that Ty is actually Targaryen, albeit legitimised Lannister, which as the eldest out of Dany and Jon, and Aegon most likely being an impostor, would in fact present him as a candidate for the rightful heir.

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