[Book Spoilers] This is Bryan Cogman's episode.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Hardly rabid, Protar and I and anyone else I've seen asking questions make their points in a measured way. We're not foaming at the mouth because of perceived disrespect from D&D, we just would like some answers and accountability. They don't have to give it to us, obviously, but it's not unreasonable to hope for some?

What do you want them to say exactly? We made this change because we thought it would play out better on a television show or we made this change because of budgetary reasons? Those are the reasons behind almost every decision. They don't make changes willy nilly or because they think it will in fact be worse with that change (budget providing).

It's easy to understand why Jeyne Westerling was changed (Even though I don't particularly like it - I think they attempted to improve something that was sketchy to begin with and in fact made it worse).

I'm not sure if you appreciate how pathetic it is as a fan to consistently demand answers from the producers of a show while all the time proclaiming how incompetent they are and how unjust it is that they won't address your concerns (I'm not saying you're like this, but almost all of the stubborn-book-purist crowd is the same as the D&D-are-morons crowd, hence rabid fans).

[protar]

How about this:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jsTVnZm9hFg

?

I've seen that video yeah. I fail to see how it really requires that Jeyne become a foreign nurse who can wander around battlefields and sass kings without consequences. I'm sorry, but I just don't see in any way how that change was necessary.

[franko99]

wow, this thread go quickly from "praise Cogman" to "bash D&D".

All I have to say is, even though I don't agree with all their changes, this is by far the best adaptation I have ever seen in TV/films, and most of the added scenes have been great so far (not surprisingly Cogman did most of my favorites), I know most of us would have loved to see everything exactly as it was on our heads, but that's impossible, and yes as a die hard Stannis supporter, I'm concerned about the direction they're taking his character, but if D&D decided to make him that way, in the end it's their right to do so.

And of course they don't own us anything, but more feedback would be welcomed, in the end the hardcore fans of the serie, most of the time are also the hardcore fans of the books, hope they learn from Cogman and start do more interviews and become more "friendlier/open" to their fansm and change the "deal with it" attitude

[Dragonstoned]

What do you want them to say exactly? We made this change because we thought it would play out better on a television show or we made this change because of budgetary reasons? Those are the reasons behind almost every decision. They don't make changes willy nilly or because they think it will in fact be worse with that change (budget providing).

The budgetary ones no-one has any problems with, except I suppose that HBO should give them as big a budget as they want to match the popularity of the show. I guess people want more depth on the reasons - saying 'we thought it would be interesting for the actors to play it out this way' is all well and good, but it raises the question of why they feel this is more important than preserving the plot, e.g. why is it a bigger concern than Robb's reasons for sleeping with his eventual wife and ballsing up the northern campaign?

Saying 'we thought it would be better' is a cop-out instead of a justification, you said yourself that they don't make changes because they think it will be worse so it goes without saying that that is the basic reason why. We just want to know WHY the change makes it better within the framework of the source material and adaptation process, and it would be the most interesting thing to listen to the showrunners' thinking.

wow, this thread go quickly from "praise Cogman" to "bash D&D".

All I have to say is, even though I don't agree with all their changes, this is by far the best adaptation I have ever seen in TV/films, and most of the added scenes have been great so far (not surprisingly Cogman did most of my favorites), I know most of us would have loved to see everything exactly as it was on our heads, but that's impossible.

I am mostly responsible for the change in the thread direction but it was because the interview posted was apparently meant to sooth book-purist fears and I thought it didn't. I loved What is Dead May Never Die and thought it was the best episode last season that wasn't Blackwater, and BC is definitely my favourite showrunner..

As for the second point then the show is facking brilliant (third best thing on TV after Wire and Firefly imo), but this doesn't mean we can't expect it to be better. The thing is that there's the chance to make something truly epic and timeless, which is what the books are, a show without question the best thing on TV and it's falling just short of the mark. Just want it to be as good as it could be.

[Thelastactionhero]

Didn't he also say that Stannis is the most heroic character in the series? Open to interpretation: straight 'Stannis is a hero' or 'the series contains so few examples of heroism that even Stannis is probably the hero'

I could be wrong here and can't find a quote, but I'm positive GRRM thinks of him more neutrally than D&D do.

George R Martin specifically stated that: "Stannis is, despite everything, a truly righteous man." Though he is certainly far from perfect, book readers can infer from the tonality of his portrayal in the latter part of SoS and A Dance With Dragons that he is far from being a "villain". Especially when one thinks about Jon Snow being polarized over helping Stannis, yet continually reminding himself that "Stannis fights for the realm." Yes, this is simply Jon's view, and I'm not saying that any of the character's POVs should be understood as representing Martin's own opinion of the characters, but these are important scenes where we experience Stannis, and others' perceptions of him, which ultimately culminate into the aesthetic tone through which he is portrayed. He is far from being a benevolent action hero, but I feel it's made abundantly clear that Stannis' intentions are not petty, childish, nor wholly villainous, and that he is one of the more noble major characters within the work. Dragonstone at this period in the show is, admittedly, a low point for Stannis, and they still have time to develop him into a fully fleshed, morally gray character, but should they choose to continue this route, it'll be nothing less than an abuse of the source material.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Gods, this fan base is horrible. The sense of entitlement; acting like they have any idea what goes into the production of this show, let alone any television show, etc.

I'm glad D&D don't waste their time "answering for themselves", because there focus is where it belongs - on making the show that practically consumes their entire lives. Posters like protar are arm-chair filmmakers - except going beyond mere criticism into personal attacks, and making judgement of character without having met or spoken with D&D or anyone else involved in this production is doubly ignorant and presumptuous. Martin, D&D, and Bryan Cogman all recently spent a weekend together discussing this story and probably having some laughs. You (nor 99.9% of the people who post here) have never even met any of them. So don't make ridiculous assumptions about the respect the people involved have for either the source material or the author. You don't know. George Martin does. Which is why he agreed to let the two of them make this show, and why he is still involved and continually assisting in its production.

[Sphinx The Riddle]

"Yes, he’s officially out of show canon. In GAME OF THRONES canon, Egg is the Mad King’s father" .....

[Dysun]

Any time something is adapted from book to film it's going to have book thumpers crying foul, not unexpected. Frankly it could be farrrrrrrrr worse, look at The Walking Dead. Nothing like the source and much worse off for it

[Sphinx The Riddle]

Gods, this fan base is horrible. The sense of entitlement; acting like they have any idea what goes into the production of this show, let alone any television show, etc.

:bowdown:

[protar]

Gods, this fan base is horrible. The sense of entitlement; acting like they have any idea what goes into the production of this show, let alone any television show, etc.

I'm glad D&D don't waste their time "answering for themselves", because there focus is where it belongs - on making the show that practically consumes their entire lives. Posters like protar are arm-chair filmmakers - except going beyond mere criticism into personal attacks, and making judgement of character without having met or spoken with D&D or anyone else involved in this production is doubly ignorant and presumptuous. Martin, D&D, and Bryan Cogman all recently spent a weekend together discussing this story and probably having some laughs. You (nor 99.9% of the people who post here) have never even met any of them. So don't make ridiculous assumptions about the respect the people involved have for either the source material or the author. You don't know. George Martin does. Which is why he agreed to let the two of them make this show, and why he is still involved and continually assisting in its production.

No one is saying they're entitled to anything. We're just saying it would be nice for a little bit of fan/producer feedback. Which it would be.

I have never made any personal attacks against D+D, I don't know where you're getting that. Criticising their dedication to the source material and their ability as writers is not a personal attack. The only person making personal attack is you.

Have you met any of them? If you have did you have any interaction with them aside from getting an autograph or asking a quick fan question? I doubt it. So why is your view of D+D - that they're amazing writers who apparently can't be criticised - the default? Neither of us know them, so to discredit my criticisms due to my lack of knowledge of them in the same breath that you praise them is quite simply hypocritical and rude.

I do wonder why you continue to post in a fandom that you think is awful. Though of course it isn't awful, people just don't take kindly to somebody coming in, personally attacking them and patronising their knowledge of film and television. Perhaps if you posted without doing this we would be able to have the civil conversations that I am able to have with all of the other D+D fans.

[Khal-a-bunga]

No one is saying they're entitled to anything. We're just saying it would be nice for a little bit of fan/producer feedback. Which it would be.

I have never made any personal attacks against D+D, I don't know where you're getting that. Criticising their dedication to the source material and their ability as writers is not a personal attack. The only person making personal attack is you.

Have you met any of them? If you have did you have any interaction with them aside from getting an autograph or asking a quick fan question? I doubt it. So why is your view of D+D - that they're amazing writers who apparently can't be criticised - the default? Neither of us know them, so to discredit my criticisms due to my lack of knowledge of them in the same breath that you praise them is quite simply hypocritical and rude.

I do wonder why you continue to post in a fandom that you think is awful. Though of course it isn't awful, people just don't take kindly to somebody coming in, personally attacking them and patronising their knowledge of film and television. Perhaps if you posted without doing this we would be able to have the civil conversations that I am able to have with all of the other D+D fans.

Spare me the bullshit. All one would need to do is look at your posting history (some posts in this thread, even) to see that - 1.) You - and a lot of other posters - do feel some sense of entitlement when it comes to "explanations" for why certain changes were made. & 2.) You - and other posters - make personal attacks against D&D's character all the time (again, in this thread, even).

My view of D&D is irrelevant. I never mention what I think about them as people, because I don't know as I've never met them. It's a bold-faced lie for you to say you don't personally attack them, and if you like, I'll come back to this thread with ample quotes to prove it. So just as you don't like being "personally attacked", it'd be easy to assume that nobody else does, either. You consistently question their ability as writers, and their ability to run this show 'effectively', but that's not a personal attack... Fair enough, but then how is it possible for you to consider what I said a personal attack? What do you know about film/television production, in that case? Enlighten me.

It's ridiculous that the site enforces rules that we don't accuse any of the Unsullied from TWoP of being book readers, and that we don't mention them by name, but there's no such rule in place for the people behind the show. You know I enjoy debating the show with you, protar, but you're kidding yourself if you think you don't do exactly what you just said that you didn't in many of your posts. The irony here is that I didn't accuse you of anything, or say anything much different than what you've said about D&D, so maybe you should get some thicker skin before throwing around insults.

And yes, this fandom - as a whole - is horrible. Everywhere you go, people spoil the big moments from the series left and right. YouTube videos, message boards - basically anywhere on the Internet. Compound that with the fact that this is essentially one of the closest adaptations ever done for television or film, and then look at the amount of complaining over changes, and it's not hard to see why I (and others) would think that. The sense of entitlement comes from the fact that we didn't have to get an adaptation of this story at all. Would you have preferred that? I'm sure Martin wouldn't have, as it has opened his amazing book series up to people all over the world who wouldn't have heard about it any other way. Ultimately, we're all here to discuss the books and the adaptation of the books, not how much the people involved in the production of the show "respect" and/or "care about" the source material or the fan base.

If I were to continually post about how Martin doesn't give a fuck about his fans because of the way he split up fan favorite characters among the last two books, or how long it's taking for these latest books to be released, then I would hope someone would call me out on it, because it wouldn't be within my knowledge to know any of that for a certainty. The fact that it would be conjecture on my part wouldn't excuse the fact that I was being an ignorant ass, however. That's what I'm trying to say.

[The Flaying Man]

I think the thing we all have to remember, as aptly pointed out by Khal-a-bunga, is that George trusted D&D to bring his baby to life on screen. That should say enough. Yes, we nag and complain when a change is made, but that's television.

We (and by "we" I mean readers and lovers of ASOIAF) have the privilege of reading the books because of George's knowledge and intuition. Similarly, by George passing on that intuition to D&D, and knowing fully that a literal translation from book to screen on this level is impossible, we owe D&D the utmost respect. We don't know them, and most likely never will, but GRRM does. They are under no obligation to account for any administrative decisions they make to us. Cogman has simply set that standard in some people's minds because he has been more transparent in his interviews, but that's just the type of person he is.

Yes, this fandom as a whole is horrible. Why should D&D, or anyone for that matter, have to explain themselves to fans, as if they have erred. D&D have not erred; they run a TV show, not a visual series of novels. There is a difference between the two mediums. While some changes seem cheap and uninteresting compared to the book counterparts, in the end, it doesn't matter. George trusted D&D to commandeer the impossible task of bringing a series of un-filmable books to the screen, and they are doing a marvelous job, as George trusted that they would, otherwise he wouldn't have handed over the rights.

They don't "owe" us anything. We owe them our appreciation and respect for attempting the seemingly impossible, and doing a damn good job of it. A little thanks never went astray.

[King Tommen]

It should also be mentioned that it is exceedingly rare for any showrunner of popular and serialized television projects to provide any kind of reasons for making the decisions that they do. They often feel like the art should speak for itself and either aren't interested or comfortable justifying the way certain decisions are made. Guys like David Chase (Sopranos), David Simon (The Wire) or Matthew Weiner (Mad Men) wouldn't interact with fans or provide reasons for the choices that they make on-screen even if you begged them to.

All in all, I think the level of access that D&D have provided, as well as the latitude they have given writers like Cogman to speak about many, many aspects of the production and the writing process is fairly astounding, if you're looking for comparisons. I think the fanbase, because it's so rabid and has the books as the source material can be, at times, unreasonably demanding of details that have historically, never been offered up to the general public.

I also think that we can all agree that this endeavour, like all art, like George's books, isn't perfect. And you are free to disagree with aspects of it. I just don't really understand why some fans will dwell on these particular aspects and let them drive their opinion of the entire series. In my case, on a series that I enjoyed immensely, when certain things appear that chafe for me, I would let my feelings be known once or maybe twice and then I'd move on because I get exponentially more enjoyment from watching this show than I do misery. Why would I choose to focus on the negative to such an extreme degree?

[protar]

Spare me the bullshit. All one would need to do is look at your posting history (some posts in this thread, even) to see that - 1.) You - and a lot of other posters - do feel some sense of entitlement when it comes to "explanations" for why certain changes were made. & 2.) You - and other posters - make personal attacks against D&D's character all the time (again, in this thread, even).

A personal attack would be insinuating that D+D are horrible people for their mistakes in the show. There are posters about which call them dumb and dumber and make those attacks, but I am not one of them. I simply criticise they're writing and show decisions and aren't always (or ever) too sweet about it. That's not a personal attack it's an opinion.

My view of D&D is irrelevant. I never mention what I think about them as people, because I don't know as I've never met them. It's a bold-faced lie for you to say you don't personally attack them, and if you like, I'll come back to this thread with ample quotes to prove it. So just as you don't like being "personally attacked", it'd be easy to assume that nobody else does, either. You consistently question their ability as writers, and their ability to run this show 'effectively', but that's not a personal attack? Then how is it possible for you to consider what I said a personal attack? What do you know about film/television production, in that case? Enlighten me.

Again, I don't see these as personal attacks. Some people aren't good writers. When they then publish their writing people are perfectly at liberty to criticise that. Again, I do not presume to know what they're like as people. I only ever criticise them in relation to the show. Your argument is a two edged sword. On the one hand you can ask when criticism becomes personal attacks, on the other you can ask when refusing to criticise them becomes ridiculous coddling. Are you seriously saying no one should be able to criticise how they run the show without it being a personal attack? Certainly I have never intended to personally attack them if my posts ever came across like that. I think we've all said less than polite things in the heat of the moment after all.

As for my knowledge in film, it's hardly encyclopedic but I am approaching the end of a 2 year film course in college, and including my high school experience that makes four years study film. Almost a quarter of my life. I know you perhaps don't see a 17 year old as an aficionado of film and you're probably right, but I am not entirely innocent of the topic. And I'm sure there are plenty of purists here who do actually work in film or related jobs.

It's ridiculous that the site enforces rules that we don't accuse any of the Unsullied from TWoP of being book readers, or that we even mention them by name, but there's no such rule in place for the people behind the show. You know I enjoy debating the show with you, protar, but you're kidding yourself if you think you don't do exactly what you just said that you didn't in your original post. The irony here is that I didn't accuse you, or say anything much different than what you've said about D&D, so maybe you should get some thicker skin before throwing around insults.

I apologise if I was throwing around insults. I enjoy debating the show with you as well, I only wish that we could do that more civilly.

And yes, this fandom - as a whole - is horrible. Everywhere you go, people spoil the big moments from the series left and right. YouTube videos, message boards - basically anywhere on the Internet. Compound that with the fact that this is essentially one of the closest adaptations ever done for television or film, and then look at the amount of complaining over changes, and it's not hard to see why I (and others) would think that. The sense of entitlement comes from the fact that we didn't have to get an adaptation of this story at all. Would you have preferred that? I'm sure Martin wouldn't have, as it has opened his amazing book series up to people all over the world who wouldn't have heard about it any other way. Ultimately, we're all here to discuss the books and the adaptation of the books, not how much the people involved in the production of the show "respect" and/or "care about" the source material or the fan base.

I think a better argument would be that the internet is horrible. This forum at any rate is mostly given over to intelligent discussion of the show. It can be heated, but let's be honest here - both sides of the argument are guilty of that.

Obviously I would not prefer no show at all, the show is very good and I think (I know) that I fail to get across most of the time how much I like the show, how excited I get every week. But it is not perfect. No show is. I try to give intelligent, constructive criticisms and I think that criticism is very important to the media industry.

If I were to continually post about how Martin doesn't give a fuck about his fans because of the way he split up fan favorite characters among the last two books, or how long it's taking for these latest books to be released, then I would hope someone would call me out on it, because it wouldn't be within my knowledge to know any of that for a certainty. The fact that it would be conjecture on my part wouldn't excuse the fact that I was being an ignorant ass, however. That's what I'm trying to say.

They're not really the same situations though. Anyone who looked into the reasons behind the character split and the frustrating writing times would know that Martin struggled incredibly with this section of the story and was most certainly trying his best to tell an exciting story and get it out as quickly as possible. And Martin is ever visiting fan conventions and doing interviews, he finds it hard to say no. It's kind of improbable that anyone with any knowledge of the topic would consider Martin to not care about his fans (though I could understand the view that he's having trouble with motivation.).

In this case there's little evidence that D+D struggled immensely with the source material and that only after thoroughly exhausting every over option they decided to make changes. That would be the equivalent. It seems fairly clear from what interviews we've gotten that D+D are comfortable with deviating from the books whenever the mood strikes them. I don't see this as positive, but I can certainly understand if you do.

In any case, I think we've strayed off-topic in a thread about an episode not by D+D but by a writer who I actually think is excellent. I'd love to pick the conversation up in some other thread or some over time, and I would really like for things to be friendlier whilst discussing it (and I'm not blaming that on you.) :)

[iheartseverus]

I would let my feelings be known once or maybe twice and then I'd move on because I get exponentially more enjoyment from watching this show than I do misery. Why would I choose to focus on the negative to such an extreme degree?

^This. There are 3 regular long-time posters here that, as soon as I see their username as the next post, I just scroll right past it and go on to read the next in line, because its a nearly iron-clad certainty that their posts will be depressingly negative, critical, hostile, rude or some combination of all. Since I've taken to doing that (just skipping over them and moving on) , my enjoyment level browsing these threads has dramatically increased. :laugh:

ETA: On topic, thank you, Bryan Cogman--I'm a great fan of yours!

[Mr Fixit]

And yes, this fandom - as a whole - is horrible.

Unfortunately yes. The ASOIAF (primarily book+show) fandom is terrible beyond words, it's soulcrushingly hideously... hideous, yeah that's the word. :agree:

But, I really, really, really encourage people to go over to Television Without Pity - now that's what a forum ought to look like! Not only the Unsullied, but more or less all the threads devoted to GoT are simply brimming with intelligent insightful people talking, thinking, and typing about the show. Some don't like it, some are very critical, but ALL are dedicated to diving headlong into this sprawling world and analyzing the hell out of it!

Compared to here, it's like finally moving from one of those schools with abusive bullies around every corner that Hollywood TV shows like to portray so much.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Let's try and keep the discussion friendly, guys. We don't want a repeat of the "homophobic undertones in GOT" thread again. And I agree with the poster that said that this thread is deviating too much into criticizing D and D. That should probably be in another thread, since this one is about Cogman.

I can only hope that D&D are offering opinions of Stannis that directly reflect what they believe the audience should think at that particular moment in time. In season 2, Stannis is a relatively new character, and was introduced as having let a foreign religion grasp a firm foothold in Westeros, which is automatically perceived as "wrong".

Perhaps they are simply playing to the expectations of the non book-reading audience with their comments? I hope this is the case, as otherwise they have grossly misunderstood Stannis' character and what he stands for.

:agree: Let's hope this is the case. It would make some sense, given that Stannis was still seen by readers in a negative light in ACOK. IMO, he only started to become a fan favourite at the end of the ASOS. Before that, he was just a self-righteous, grouchy stick in the mud.

[BenPlumm]

Gods, this fan base is horrible. The sense of entitlement; acting like they have any idea what goes into the production of this show, let alone any television show, etc.

Thank you.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Gods, this fan base is horrible. The sense of entitlement; acting like they have any idea what goes into the production of this show, let alone any television show, etc.

I'm glad D&D don't waste their time "answering for themselves", because there focus is where it belongs - on making the show that practically consumes their entire lives. Posters like protar are arm-chair filmmakers - except going beyond mere criticism into personal attacks, and making judgement of character without having met or spoken with D&D or anyone else involved in this production is doubly ignorant and presumptuous. Martin, D&D, and Bryan Cogman all recently spent a weekend together discussing this story and probably having some laughs. You (nor 99.9% of the people who post here) have never even met any of them. So don't make ridiculous assumptions about the respect the people involved have for either the source material or the author. You don't know. George Martin does. Which is why he agreed to let the two of them make this show, and why he is still involved and continually assisting in its production.

I love you.

[wolverine]

There are lots of great fans too, assholes.