Crackpot Alert: The father of Ashara Dayne's baby?

[The guy from the Vale]

OK... there's quite a bit of speculation who the father of Ashara Dayne's stillborn daughter was. The usual suspects are Aerys and Brandon, for a variety of reasons. However, there is one other candidate I haven't seen being discussed all that often - Robert Baratheon.

Why Robert, you ask? Well, for one thing we know he already had a bastard at that time: Mya Stone. Also, Ashara reputedly looked to Stark to erase her dishonor. Now assuming she had had a thing with Robert, where would she look to get reassurances? Robert was a Lord in his own right, but also still a fosterling of Jon Arryn. But Lord Arryn wasn't at the tourney. So who should she turn to instead? Well, Jon Arryn's other foster child and Robert's close friend, Ned Stark.

I know this isn't conclusive at the least. But I haven't seen much to refute this theory so far, and the other theories are on similarly shaky ground. Any idea why this couldn't work?

[J. Stargaryen]

OK... there's quite a bit of speculation who the father of Ashara Dayne's stillborn daughter was. The usual suspects are Aerys and Brandon, for a variety of reasons. However, there is one other candidate I haven't seen being discussed all that often - Robert Baratheon.

Why Robert, you ask? Well, for one thing we know he already had a bastard at that time: Mya Stone. Also, Ashara reputedly looked to Stark to erase her dishonor. Now assuming she had had a thing with Robert, where would she look to get reassurances? Robert was a Lord in his own right, but also still a fosterling of Jon Arryn. But Lord Arryn wasn't at the tourney. So who should she turn to instead? Well, Jon Arryn's other foster child and Robert's close friend, Ned Stark.

I know this isn't conclusive at the least. But I haven't seen much to refute this theory so far, and the other theories are on similarly shaky ground. Any idea why this couldn't work?

This is certainly plausible given Robert's reputation. Of course the baby would have been black-haired, which would necessarily preclude any of the 'Ashara's baby is/was Aegon' baby switching theories.

So if Robert was the father, then it seems like the story is at a dead end. It's an interesting thought though.

[The guy from the Vale]

That's certainly true, but I don't really buy into the baby swap theories anyway.

Yes, the story would be at a dead end, but it might, for example, serve to further explain Lyanna's disgust if she heard about that story there.

[Techelles]

I like it. Robert certainly isn't what Barristan would call a "mud man." Maybe his refusal to name the man who dishonored Ashara even in his own thoughts is out of a sense of loyalty to a man he called king. He doesn't want to badmouth him, even to himself. This kinda fits with his reluctance to speak ill of Aerys, even when prompted.

Also, the news that Robert was to be king and marry Cersei Lannister could be an additional reason for Ashara's suicide after Ned's visit. Sure, personally I've always thought that news of her brother's death and her own guilt in the matter was sufficient reason, but this could be something extra that helps explain it even better.

So if Robert was the father, then it seems like the story is at a dead end. It's an interesting thought though.

The story being at a dead end doesn't bother me, to be honest. I never thought there was much to the baby-swapping stuff, nor have I ever thought that Ashara's child was terribly important in the grand scheme of things.

I guess the only thing I'm wondering is why we haven't been told about it.

[J. Stargaryen]

That's certainly true, but I don't really buy into the baby swap theories anyway.

Yes, the story would be at a dead end, but it might, for example, serve to further explain Lyanna's disgust if she heard about that story there.

Aha! Now you've breathed life into your idea. You've given GRRM a motive or reason to make Robert the father. And a consistent one at that.

I like it. Robert certainly isn't what Barristan would call a "mud man." Maybe his refusal to name the man who dishonored Ashara even in his own thoughts is out of a sense of loyalty to a man he called king. He doesn't want to badmouth him, even to himself. This kinda fits with his reluctance to speak ill of Aerys, even when prompted.

Also, the news that Robert was to be king and marry Cersei Lannister could be an additional reason for Ashara's suicide after Ned's visit. Sure, personally I've always thought that news of her brother's death and her own guilt in the matter was sufficient reason, but this could be something extra that helps explain it even better.

The story being at a dead end doesn't bother me, to be honest. I never thought there was much to the baby-swapping stuff, nor have I ever thought that Ashara's child was terribly important in the grand scheme of things.

I guess the only thing I'm wondering is why we haven't been told about it.

I think there will probably be some point to this whole story, and therefore some reason why X is the father instead of Y.

[caravaggio]

Would Bob have stolen his best friend's girl?

Here is crackpot for you: Barristan is the one who dishonored her.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Would Bob have stolen his best friend's girl?

Here is crackpot for you: Barristan is the one who dishonored her.

:agree: that would be awesome

[caravaggio]

I think it might be possible, nothing in the text excludes it for me.

Barristan is obviously very taken with Ashara's looks.

He is still thinking about her after all these years.

"But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man that had dishonored her at Harrenhall as well. " What if he is speaking of himself here? Killing yourself "for the man that had dishonored her" could be him thinking she killed herself because she thought she could never be with him.

"She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her." He feels responsible.. if only he had told her his feelings she might have wanted to live.

"How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could come of telling her her his feelings."

I don't think he is saying that he was 100% celibate, but rather that he shouldn't be screwing around. I think there are parallels with Oakheart's story here.

Barristan goes on to say this is the biggest failure of his life. If he wasn't involved in some way other than not telling her he was in love with her then what is the big deal really?

So Barristan has a huge crush on Ashara. Gives in to one night (or a few) of passion at the tournament. Tells her it can't continue, he is a Kingsguard. It wouldn't be a huge deal for Ashara, but she gets pregnant, loses the baby, and (probably) kills herself. If Barristan thinks he is the father than it makes sense for him to blame himself because if he had told her of his feelings and said screw it to his vows for love (As Oakheart began to) then he thinks she would still be alive today.

[Techelles]

Yes, the story would be at a dead end, but it might, for example, serve to further explain Lyanna's disgust if she heard about that story there.

Aha! Now you've breathed life into your idea. You've given GRRM a motive or reason to make Robert the father. And a consistent one at that.

I agree, this is a pretty good point.

I think there will probably be some point to this whole story, and therefore some reason why X is the father instead of Y.

Some point, yes. I like the reasons theguyfromthevale has given so far. On this subject, I like the relatively minor, consistent reasons that fit together nicely more than I do the big conspiracy theories. But if we assume that this theory is true, does the fact that it's still unrevealed mean that there is some reason for this that hasn't yet been touched on in this thread? If so, I wonder what it might be.

[Fassbender]

Guys, everyone knows that it was Ilyn Payne

[Balerion06]

Yes, the story would be at a dead end, but it might, for example, serve to further explain Lyanna's disgust if she heard about that story there.

Which is why she chose to run away with an already married man and help him cheat on his wife?

[The guy from the Vale]

Which is why she chose to run away with an already married man and help him cheat on his wife?

Polygamy is not the same thing as adultery. Live with it.

[caravaggio]

Speaking of Barristan... do we take his word for it that Ashara had a girl?

[The guy from the Vale]

Many baby swap theorists don't; but it's a weird detail to include if Barristan didn't know, methinks.

[The guy from the Vale]

I might add that this theory also explains why Ned mentions Wylla, not Ashara, to Robert when he asks who Jon's mother is; because Robert knows exactly that Ashara didn't love Ned but rather Robert himself.

[Balerion06]

Polygamy is not the same thing as adultery. Live with it.

Polygamy is against the Seven (Rhaegar's gods), and nothing in the texts suggests the old gods (Lyanna's gods) sanction it either.

So exactly which religious institution would have allowed this polygamous marriage to be legitimate?

[And if Elia is unaware of it, it's cheating]

[The guy from the Vale]

Polygamy is legal for Targaryens, though, even in the context of the Seven. Heck, incest was still legal for the Targaryens, and that one is despised by both Old and New Gods.

The Old Gods do sanction polygamous marriages, at least amongst Wildlings.

If Elia is unaware of it, it may be cheating - but we do not know if Elia knew of it or not; the scene Dany sees in the HotU suggests she was aware of Rhaegar's plans to have a third child that she could not provide, though.

[Balerion06]

Polygamy is legal for Targaryens, though, even in the context of the Seven. Heck, incest was still legal for the Targaryens, and that one is despised by both Old and New Gods.

The Old Gods do sanction polygamous marriages, at least amongst Wildlings.

If Elia is unaware of it, it may be cheating - but we do not know if Elia knew of it or not; the scene Dany sees in the HotU suggests she was aware of Rhaegar's plans to have a third child that she could not provide, though.

Polygamy is not legal for the Targaryens. It's one of the big reasons for the conflicts that arose between Maegar and the Faith, and that conflict ended with the Targaryens losing the legality for polygamy but getting a pass on the incest.

Wildling ways are not Westerosi ways, especially since nobody in the North has a polygamous marriage. So Westeros is not going to see that as legal either (and there's some evidence that some of the wildlings don't even worship the Old Gods, so these polygamous marriages could be stemming from another religion altogether).

I don't think that HotU scene indicates Elia knew (though she might have, I guess). But I have a hard time imagining Elia or any of the Martells approving of Rhaegar running off with another highborn lady whose child could easily challenge Aegon's or Rhaenys' claims.

[Where Boars Glow]

Speaking of Barristan... do we take his word for it that Ashara had a girl?

As Sir Barristan has brought up himself in internal dialog many times. He is a great knight and a honorable man.....but Sherlok Holmes he is not.

Varys ability at trickery > Barristans skills as a slueth

[J. Stargaryen]

Polygamy is not legal for the Targaryens. It's one of the big reasons for the conflicts that arose between Maegar and the Faith, and that conflict ended with the Targaryens losing the legality for polygamy but getting a pass on the incest.

Wildling ways are not Westerosi ways, especially since nobody in the North has a polygamous marriage. So Westeros is not going to see that as legal either (and there's some evidence that some of the wildlings don't even worship the Old Gods, so these polygamous marriages could be stemming from another religion altogether).

I don't think that HotU scene indicates Elia knew (though she might have, I guess). But I have a hard time imagining Elia or any of the Martells approving of Rhaegar running off with another highborn lady whose child could easily challenge Aegon's or Rhaenys' claims.

Where do you get your info from? The faith was upset that Aenys, an abomination (aka, born of incest), was crowned king.