[Book Spoilers] Last Scene of the Episode

[Humble Hedge Knight]

If anything the saga has been "everyone kills one another before the real enemy comes to get them" from the get go.

Its like Jon told his men before he was stabbed (paraphrasing): And what do you think will happen once they die? Which army do you think they'll fight for, then?

The characters have been feeding soldiers for the White Walkers since the War of the Five Kings. The lucky ones are already dead.

The problem with the assumption that the Others are walking death machines is that it rests on a series of assumptions retold by characters from thousands of years ago. It's too black and white; if the world really is as Manichaean as the Red Priests say, then the Others are much more likely to simply be the yin to the dragons' yang. I wouldn't ascribe "good" or "evil" to anything yet, even though I don't doubt that the Others are definitely antagonistic to the humans in Westeros. But at the same time, Dany's loose-cannon dragons are very antagonistic to the humans on Westeros as well. Which would cut through a village faster? A horde of Others, or a few fire-breathing dragons? Tough to say, though there's no doubt that both parties would be more than willing.

[Daske]

I think it was more to do with the fact that 1- it was very unexpected 2- they already killed Ned and the Starks are severely out of luck, so people presumed they weren't going to be nearly decimated so soon 3- usually the bad guys don't win in such conflicts, and in this the Lannisters pretty much have. Nevermind that from now on they're going to implode and lose anyway, show only viewers don't know that, so for them it's like the idea of the "goodies" getting the justice they deserve, died with the Starks who had an army and could do something.

It wasn't for particular love for the Starks imo, because they really didn't do them justice this season. They had a blatant lack of screen time compared to the Lannisters, and their characterisation was pretty screwed up too, they looked like boring morons (except for Arya, who they love) and in the books they're not morons especially not Cat or Jon. At this point the showrunners' favouritism is undeniable.

Most of the reactions I've seen was more about how shocking and unexpected the scene was (which it was), not exactly how sad people are that those characters are gone.

The reaction videos to the RW could only have been as strong as they were if viewers really cared about that family. The reaction to the RW was probably the biggest 'oh no' reaction to any fiction on television ever. You could tell in some of them they were really hoping those particular characters might survive even right at the end. People were crying.

I don't see any anti-Stark bias at all. They are clearly the heros and as good as good guys get in this show. And they all have human flaws which made them more realistic. They've had pretty much all of the best written 'quiet' character-building scenes so far in the show. To say viewers didn't connect with the Starks just isn't true imo.

Some sort of revenge for the Starks is one of the biggest thing people will be hoping for next season (along with Dany reaching Westeros). It may even be the one thing that is keeping many people watching after being so upset about the RW (or after reading about it for that matter).

[silentwanderer]

The problem with the assumption that the Others are walking death machines is that it rests on a series of assumptions retold by characters from thousands of years ago.

I see it as a conquest more than anything else.

The White Walkers re-claiming what's theirs from the sacks of meat that built the Wall.

The Lords and their armies so distracted by an Iron Throne to fight for their own lives until its too late.

[Boi]

Unless there is some real evul WW magi supreme conjurer giving R'hllor kittens, who uses the horn of winter bringing the wall shattering to the ground. There is the obstacle of runes invested into the wall. Dead who have already crossed over can be reanimated the other side hence the first attack on Castle Black. Coldhands was barred with no entry. There has been a vague report of them swimming, but to fuzzy unless the sea freezes on East and Shadow. They will be swimming for many months to wight harbour.

Always and always the threat.........

[JMJ]

Unless there is some real evul WW magi supreme conjurer giving R'hllor kittens, who uses the horn of winter bringing the wall shattering to the ground. There is the obstacle of runes invested into the wall. Dead who have already crossed over can be reanimated the other side hence the first attack on Castle Black. Coldhands was barred with no entry. There has been a vague report of them swimming, but to fuzzy unless the sea freezes on East and Shadow. They will be swimming for many months to wight harbour.

Always and always the threat.........

???

[Boi]

???

Lost in translation or didn't you read between the lines or the books. Maybe spoilers on this thread apologises as this subject has drifted. Do you need a spelling class?

A: The horn of winter hasn't been found or used

B: Coldhands cant get through the wall due to runes

C: Dead have crossed under the wall as a corpse later reanimated as wight not before

D: Reports raven of the dead swimming very vague, mother mole, or likely transported

E: That leaves. The sea freezing over, a zombie pyramid, or them swimming to wight harbour, if the wall doesn't shatter

[JMJ]

I think I do indeed need a spelling class. My subject has probably drifeted (sic) too much.

[Boi]

Oh realys sure I likes spelllllllllings you hadn't let me eidt with a chekcer but noes I can also wead :P I recommed google it helps with the big words and description I'm sure you know the wikileaks for spoiler info

[Humble Hedge Knight]

Muphry's Law, gentlemen.

[teemo]

after rewatching today with a friend, i think the most annoying part is how obvious it is that stannis is going to the Wall.....why can't it be sort of a surprise? I was in the books and it was awesome. And it looked like Meli made the decision, not stannis.

[six]

The revenge for the Stark family is coming, though. By the end of next season, the Lannister family will be in worse shape than the Starks. I often said, when dicussing why the Purple Wedding wouldn't be in season three, that season four would be the season of the Lannister's downfall. Starting with Joffrey dying, Sansa escaping, and Tyrion being imprisoned. Margaery will then marry a more malleable Tommen Baratheon, giving the Tyrell family even more control. Cersei will find that Jaime is a changed man, and the estrangement between the two of them will be a running story line all season long, I'm sure. Then the culmination being the deaths of Tywin & Shae, with Tyrion escaping. Lady Stoneheart, by that point, will be a figurative cherry on top of this revenge sundae.

Not to mention there will be some significant victories for the remaining members of the Stark family. Sansa will finally escape King's Landing (though she's in somewhat of a out-of-the-frying-pan-into-the-fire kind of situation); Bran will discover more about his powers, and perhaps will begin to realize the full potential of that power; Arya will take a ship to Braavos; and Jon will be elected Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. It won't be a total reversal of fortunes, but it may certainly feel that way after the beating the good guys have taken for the first three seasons.

I never saw what happens to the Lannisters as a revenge from the Starks, but just as the Lannisters causing their own implosion, which tbh was bound to happen because they're the most dysfunctional family in the books. To this day, in the books I still don't see the Starks as having had any justice or revenge yet. Some Starks has small victories in their own personal journey, but until they reclaim their lives back in some way or another, and Arya turns out to be Cersei's valonqar, there is no revenge for the Starks.

The reaction videos to the RW could only have been as strong as they were if viewers really cared about that family. The reaction to the RW was probably the biggest 'oh no' reaction to any fiction on television ever. You could tell in some of them they were really hoping those particular characters might survive even right at the end. People were crying.

I don't see any anti-Stark bias at all. They are clearly the heros and as good as good guys get in this show. And they all have human flaws which made them more realistic. They've had pretty much all of the best written 'quiet' character-building scenes so far in the show. To say viewers didn't connect with the Starks just isn't true imo.

Some sort of revenge for the Starks is one of the biggest thing people will be hoping for next season (along with Dany reaching Westeros). It may even be the one thing that is keeping many people watching after being so upset about the RW (or after reading about it for that matter).

The lack of screen time and shoddy characterisation for all the Starks, except Arya, speaks volume though. This season Cat and Sansa were turned into supporting characters, and I don't think Jon's storyline is getting as much attention as Dany and Tyrion who in the books are pretty much the 3 protagonists. Dany and Tyrion are treated like protagonists in the show as well, Jon is sidelined mostly, and his arc this season became about a love story. Compared to the independence that Dany and Tyrion have, they still get romance but a lot of other cool stuff, while Jon is relegated to Hollywood smooching heartthrob. And so was Robb.

Like I said, I think the big reaction was more linked to the loss of the idea that the good side will make it in the end, rather than people actually loving the Starks.

after rewatching today with a friend, i think the most annoying part is how obvious it is that stannis is going to the Wall.....why can't it be sort of a surprise? I was in the books and it was awesome. And it looked like Meli made the decision, not stannis.

That's annoying, it's like they rewrote that relationship to make Stannis appear much more dependent on Mel.

[Daske]

Like I said, I think the big reaction was more linked to the loss of the idea that the good side will make it in the end, rather than people actually loving the Starks.

Nah, I don't see how you are getting this. Viewer's reaction to the RW was clearly immediate and visceral at the terrible things happening to characters they have got to know, not after calculated musings on how unusual the sitiuation is. Listen to what some people were saying on the vids and Twitter - 'the whole family?' and the mum who is clearly identifying with so much with Cat's situation she looks to be in real shock. Or on Twitter the hundreds of 'I'm done with this show!'. Why would people be so up in arms if it was just linked to the loss of the idea that the good side will win? Especially since plenty of other good guys are left.

I don't want to list any specific spoiler examples here, but GRRM didn't come up with the idea of the good guys don't always win. There's hundreds of popular films where this happens. Yes it's surprising where it happens in the series but it wouldn't have had the same impact if it had happened to the Lannister's for example who are clearly the bad guys and would have been almost as surprising. It's because people were rooting for the Starks that the emotional impact to the scene is so strong. It's probably the biggest example ever show on TV at how viewers get overly-invested (in a good way) in TV characters.

If you take this as the case and work backwards then assumptions made about how poorly the Starks have been written (to the wider audience) don't really seem to add up imo.

[Khal-a-bunga]

@ Daske

Like I'm probably going to do, it's probably better if you just move on. There's little actual discussion to be had about the show itself around these parts, just comparisons with the novel. And even then, very few posters go deeper than base generalities. While understandable, it's also a little over-the-top, for the most part. I almost wish the show had been placed in less capable hands, so that some of these posters could see what it's like for fans of nearly every other novel that's adapted for film or television. Sure, we'd be out a fantastic show, but we would still have the books (as everyone already does), and then I'd at least be able to better understand the vitriol the series has garnered around here.

[BericDondarrion]

The last scene was absolutely terrible and corny.All the slaves saying Mhysa and Dany looking like a clown being hoisted up, it looked like it was out of a god damn corny Disney movie.The ending was 2/10 at best.

[boojam]

The last scene was absolutely terrible and corny.All the slaves saying Mhysa and Dany looking like a clown being hoisted up, it looked like it was out of a god damn corny Disney movie.The ending was 2/10 at best.

Man! Some people are really upset by that.

In the books , she is on her Silver riding through the crowds , the same thing happening, I wonder what people would have thought if they had of done it like that?

I still think the pull away shot , with VFX, looked great along with the music.

[The Idiots Lantern]

In the books , she is on her Silver riding through the crowds , the same thing happening, I wonder what people would have thought if they had of done it like that?

They would have bemoaned all the people her Silver was definitely trampling just out of frame. She literally put her life in the hands of the crowd, letting them lift her and take her far from her guards, and yet people are swearing up and down she frightened and intimidated the slaves into carrying her like a slaver on a litter. She smiles in relief and joy and people call it "laughing maniaclly." I do not understand where these interpretations of the scene come from.

[Nordling]

''So I conquered a city, just to leave it and wait outside to see if they'll either lock me out or thank me for butchering their people.''

[The Idiots Lantern]

''So I conquered a city, just to leave it and wait outside to see if they'll either lock me out or thank me for butchering their people.''

She was never in the city herself. She sent in a SWAT TEAM to open the gates and let in her troops.

She also was going to set all the slaves free. That's what won her the day. The slave soldiers refused to fight her.

Sure people die, but it's war. That's what happens.

[Rashtibram]

I still think the pull away shot , with VFX, looked great along with the music.

It looked pretty cool, yeah, but in an uncomfortable way; part of the artistic nature of that last shot from above was that Dany was the white savior in the sea of brown people. I didn't like the last scene, but the rest of the episode saw some of the best written material this season. Good finale, and with something like UnCat it could have been one of the best episodes of the season.

[PatrickStormborn]

Whoever allowed that final scene to take place deserves to be fired IMO.

In the book scene, many of the slaves would have shared her Valyrian ancestry and therefore looked similar to her, many would have been far more educated than her, and many would have been dressed far more richly. The only reason she would have stood out from the slaves is because they were on foot and she was riding a horse; in contrast, in the show the reason she clearly stands out from the slaves is because they're all unwashed, poorly dressed, and non-white. It's incredibly uncomfortable to watch - and I say that as someone who finds the 'Mhysa' scene in the books to be one of the best passages in the entire series.