[Book Spoilers] Last Scene of the Episode

[JMJ]

It looked pretty cool, yeah, but in an uncomfortable way; part of the artistic nature of that last shot from above was that Dany was the white savior in the sea of brown people. I didn't like the last scene, but the rest of the episode saw some of the best written material this season. Good finale, and with something like UnCat it could have been one of the best episodes of the season.

I think that's part of the intended irony. Dany in some ways sees herself as a (white) savior. It's only by the end of ADWD that she realizes her foolishness, and that it's not as easy as freeing every slave and then moving on to the next city.

[JMJ]

Whoever allowed that final scene to take place deserves to be fired IMO.

In the book scene, many of the slaves would have shared her Valyrian ancestry and therefore looked similar to her, many would have been far more educated than her, and many would have been dressed far more richly. The only reason she would have stood out from the slaves is because they were on foot and she was riding a horse; in contrast, in the show the reason she clearly stands out from the slaves is because they're all unwashed, poorly dressed, and non-white. It's incredibly uncomfortable to watch - and I say that as someone who finds the 'Mhysa' scene in the books to be one of the best passages in the entire series.

True enough, but I read that D+D responded to this criticism that because the scene was shot in Morocco, the casting call for extras were basically all Moroccan, and so everyone there slave-wise looks Moroccan. Sure, they could have "imported" some Europeans, or CGI'ed some Valyrian descended folks in, but that was impractical for financial reasons.

[PatrickStormborn]

True enough, but I read that D+D responded to this criticism that because the scene was shot in Morocco, the casting call for extras were basically all Moroccan, and so everyone there slave-wise looks Moroccan. Sure, they could have "imported" some Europeans, or CGI'ed some Valyrian descended folks in, but that was impractical for financial reasons.

If they had specified that a large portion of the extras should be white, white extras would have shown up.

But that doesn't address my other criticisms: Dany's crowdsurfing, the fact that she was deliberately made to stand out from the slaves, and the fact that they were all unwashed and dressed poorly (which makes no sense considering that most would have been educated slaves or bed slaves).

[boojam]

True enough, but I read that D+D responded to this criticism that because the scene was shot in Morocco, the casting call for extras were basically all Moroccan, and so everyone there slave-wise looks Moroccan. Sure, they could have "imported" some Europeans, or CGI'ed some Valyrian descended folks in, but that was impractical for financial reasons.

You have it right. Budget constraints.

Frankly I was surprised, tho maybe I should not be, that a portion of the slaves looked white European and not all north western African. I don't know the makeup of the population of Morocco.

Anyway for the pull away shot all those were CGI-ed in , and I cant tell from shot who was what!

[Rashtibram]

I think that's part of the intended irony. Dany in some ways sees herself as a (white) savior. It's only by the end of ADWD that she realizes her foolishness, and that it's not as easy as freeing every slave and then moving on to the next city.

Hopefully that's true, and I was pleasantly surprised to see that some of my Unsullied took this interpretation from the scene, but the "inside the episode" for the finale had David and Dan pretty much ranting about how awesome and messiah-like Dany is.

[JMJ]

You have it right. Budget constraints.

Frankly I was surprised, tho maybe I should not be, that a portion of the slaves looked white European and not all north western African. I don't know the makeup of the population of Morocco.

Anyway for the pull away shot all those were CGI-ed in , and I can tell from shot who was what!

Just an FYI from wikipedia: the ethnic makeup of Morocco is 99% Berber-Arab.

[The Idiots Lantern]

I think that's part of the intended irony. Dany in some ways sees herself as a (white) savior.

Actually, she doesn't. Her motivations for conquest come from a MORAL, and not cultural, standpoint. She wants to erradicate slavery not because it's a sign of an inferior culture, but because it's morally wrong. She's not trying to convert them and doesn't want them to adopt Westerosi customs, she just wants to stop slavery.

She's a flawed individual, but the idea that she's a racist or a proponent for a racist worldview is not a fair one. She's lived her whole life in Essos and it was her brother, not her, who called the Dothraki "savages."

[boojam]

Actually, she doesn't. Her motivations for conquest come from a MORAL, and not cultural, standpoint. She wants to erradicate slavery not because it's a sign of an inferior culture, but because it's morally wrong. She's not trying to convert them and doesn't want them to adopt Westerosi customs, she just wants to stop slavery.

She's a flawed individual, but the idea that she's a racist or a proponent for a racist worldview is not a fair one. She's lived her whole life in Essos and it was her brother, not her, who called the Dothraki "savages."

Yeah this 'racist' stuff is in the eye of the beholder, since it's not in the books and to see it in the show one has to 'double think'.

Her anti-slavery stance is never really explained by George.

Even tho Valyria was a slavers 'state' (we don't know how benevolent or malevolent) apparently the Targaryen's were not , even on Dragonstone and did not bring it to Westeros.

Some say that was a sop to Westeros , but that idea is not in the books.

She did grow up in , well mostly, the anti slavery city of Braavos, so maybe that was the imprint.

She shows her abolitionist tendency even while married to Drogo , tho she has to be tactful about it.

This part of her character is tracking the way George wrote her in the books.

[Pinkie Baelish]

In the book scene, many of the slaves would have shared her Valyrian ancestry and therefore looked similar to her, many would have been far more educated than her, and many would have been dressed far more richly. The only reason she would have stood out from the slaves is because they were on foot and she was riding a horse; in contrast, in the show the reason she clearly stands out from the slaves is because they're all unwashed, poorly dressed, and non-white. It's incredibly uncomfortable to watch - and I say that as someone who finds the 'Mhysa' scene in the books to be one of the best passages in the entire series.

For the last time, the reason that most of the extras are non-white are because it was shot in Morocco. D and D shouldn't have to specify the need for white extras, just so that people don't accuse them of having racist intentions that aren't actually there. GRRM himself stressed that the scene had no racist implications and that the slaves being brown were simply because local Moroccans that might have been looking for work are the most likely to turn up for the casting call.

Good point about the clothing though. I get the whole idea of having them in chains as it stresses Daenerys as a liberator and breaker of chains, but yeah, they should have been better dressed and not have looked so grimy. Maybe this had something to do with the budget? :dunno: I guess it's more convenient and cheaper to have them dressed in dull scraps of clothing rather than elegant costumes like the slaves in Rome, given the noticeably large amounts of extras in the scene, but yeah, they could have shown a distinction among the slaves.

Oh, and I agree that the crowd-surfing bit was cringeworthy. I think the main problem with ending the episode with the scene was that it wasn't the resolution that fans and the narrative had been waiting for. The major set piece of season 3 was the Red Wedding, so it makes more sense to show Cat being resurrected. While Daenerys' arc was given a lot of screentime, it was not the major driving force or focal point of the season, which is why it's a bit perplexing that they would end the season with Mhysa and deny themselves the golden opportunity of showing the resurrection, rather than telling the viewers what happened via exposition next season.

[boojam]

I spot a curious thing.

Episode one was called "Valar Dohaeris"

Episode 10 was called "Mhysa"

Now the word "Mhysa" was used in this episode (10).

"Valar Dohaeris" was never spoken in episode one. This is supposedly to fit with episode 10 of season 2, "Valar Morghulis".

(I am not too much taken with that as an aesthetic reason , I sure the unsullied don't have a clue.)

"Valar Dohaeris" has been spoken only once in three seasons, by Thoros in episode 6, which was called "The Climb".

(O yes,"Valar Morghulis" was spoken several times in episode 10 season 2)

[The Idiots Lantern]

The major set piece of season 3 was the Red Wedding, so it makes more sense to show Cat being resurrected. While Daenerys' arc was given a lot of screentime, it was not the major driving force or focal point of the season, which is why it's a bit perplexing that they would end the season with Mhysa and deny themselves the golden opportunity of showing the resurrection, rather than telling the viewers what happened via exposition next season.

My guess is that they're toying with the idea of leaving Lady Stoneheart out all together. All the books are not out yet, and the role she will play is still very up in the air. From a TV standpoint: showing something as dramatic as "main character rises from the dead" only for that character to then do very little for the next two-books worth of seasons isn't wise if you want to preserve the show's momentum.

If Lady Stoneheart ends up being pivitally important in, say, the fall of House Frey, then we can expect to see her turn up, but for them to revive her an episode after she dies, AND make that the last shot of the season is premature. It's promising "badass zombie revenge" way before they are ready to show it.

[Rashtibram]

If Lady Stoneheart ends up being pivitally important in, say, the fall of House Frey, then we can expect to see her turn up, but for them to revive her an episode after she dies, AND make that the last shot of the season is premature. It's promising "badass zombie revenge" way before they are ready to show it.

Yeah, but didn't season 2's cliffhanger kind of promise "badass zombie warfare", which they still haven't given us?

[The Idiots Lantern]

Yeah, but didn't season 2's cliffhanger kind of promise "badass zombie warfare", which they still haven't given us?

The Others are kind of a different deal, since they were introduced in the very first scene of the very first episode and the whole series is clearly building up to their arrival.

Plus it wasn't like they'd invaded. Sam just got a look at the size of their forces and he, and us, went "FUUUUU----"

Our connection to Cat, and her reasons for attacking, are going to be much more personal. Viewers will expect to see it followed up on, like, immediately. They're not ready to do that yet, so Lady Stoneheart enters the "may or may not exist" plot basement for a while.

[boojam]

Yeah, but didn't season 2's cliffhanger kind of promise "badass zombie warfare", which they still haven't given us?

Which George still has not given us.

[LordStoneheart]

Which George still has not given us.

But season suggested only to have it be a few moments of noise and then the aftermath. Horrible season ending/opener combination. If they were trying to go by the book where we didn't really get to see it either, they could've handled it better instead of HUGE build up and little to no fall out.

Even though I don't think that was done well, Stoneheart could've happened since twice they've made a "big" finale but not followed up on it. That way she could've been introduced (my sister already noted that Beric/Thoros was pointless if they're not going to do anything with it...) Stoneheart, have her presence wandering the riverlands known, and not have to have michelle fairely present.

[The Idiots Lantern]

have her presence wandering the riverlands known, and not have to have michelle fairely present.

I don't think they're ready to have her presence be known, is the thing. It's only been one episode since she died. The viewers need more time to adjust to the idea that she's dead at all, since she was such a hugely important character. Narratively, they're still dealing with the immediate fallout of the Red Wedding. It's just too soon for LS to show up.

Since Beric was in the story, I do think Stoneheart will appear eventually, but probably not until they're into the forth book.

[Daske]

But that doesn't address my other criticisms: Dany's crowdsurfing, the fact that she was deliberately made to stand out from the slaves...

I'm sorry but Danny would stand out in any crowd, any time anywhere regardless of the colour of the people around her.

[boojam]

But season suggested only to have it be a few moments of noise and then the aftermath. Horrible season ending/opener combination. If they were trying to go by the book where we didn't really get to see it either, they could've handled it better instead of HUGE build up and little to no fall out.

Well in the books it is more elaborated, tho not what I would call 'extensively' elaborated, kind of a chaos sort of scenario.

On the show , budget limitations strike again, gonna have to get used to this.

In the books after the battle of the Fist (if you could call it a 'battle') , Sam goes through an ordeal, and then .....

nothing! Seems even GRRM was setting something up , but what are the Others and their minions waiting for? In the books it seems to be Winter which is how ADwD leaves it, an impending attack on the Wall.

(The Wilding attack on the Wall , while entertaining , didn't seem logical. If I were Mance I would have come , hat in hand, even with all the centuries of animosity, the Wildings knew they were toast, I would have negotiated to get behind the wall, maybe even bargained to help the NW, which need help. Which by the by is kind of the outcome after the battle.

(But Mance seems to have a screw loose.)(Dumber things have happened in this parallel universe when waring states were faced with a common enemy.)

(From the way George has set it up this will be one hell of a Winter and Others army will breach the Wall. Finally waking the South up. In the books it seems every one except for Stannis by way of Melisandre, is the only one who takes notice of the threat. Yes there is some lip service at KL , but even Varys , who seems to know about such things does not talk about it much. If he does not want Westeros ruled by the Red God, gezz, you wold think he would like Black magic less than Red!)

[The Idiots Lantern]

In the books after the battle of the Fist (if you could call it a 'battle') , Sam goes through an ordeal, and then .....

nothing! Seems even GRRM was setting something up , but what are the Others and their minions waiting for? In the books it seems to be Winter which is how ADwD leaves it, an impending attack on the Wall.

Winter has not yet arrived at the end of ADwD. I'd bet that's what the White Walkers/Others are waiting for. My bet is when Winter actually DOES come, properly, there won't be any doubts about it. They need the darkness and the storms to start in ernest before they launch their for-real assault on the world of the living.

[Rashtibram]

Winter has not yet arrived at the end of ADwD. I'd bet that's what the White Walkers/Others are waiting for. My bet is when Winter actually DOES come, properly, there won't be any doubts about it. They need the darkness and the storms to start in ernest before they launch their for-real assault on the world of the living.

Agreed. But winter has arrived at the end of ADWD.