Why did Sansa marry Tyrion.

[Techelles]

Who made that bed? Sansa Cersei/Tywin did.

Heh. Fixed that for you.

Also, that's a pretty amazing name you have there.

[morgan1028]

Ice Turtle, I always love your posts. This is how I see it. Sansa can be brave, in a different way. She is empathetic and scared and young and alone. Yes, Arya was too but the way these sisters think is so different, but the core of it is the same. They adapted themselves according to their situations. Sansa, I was a little annoyed that she submitted to Cersei, but she is terrified by Cersei at this point (why she didn't see Cercei's true nature before K.L is still a mystery to me). I think Sansa thought they are going to make me do this anyway... let me walk out with me head held high (she thinks all her family is dead), at least this Lannister doesn't seem as horrible as the others... her small rebellion of not bending her frozen Stark knees... I smiled so wide when I read that part, but also felt a little bad for Tyrion ( he's not one of my favorites). And doing her "duty"... well blood tells, all those Starks do their duty

[Kittykatknits]

No, you are right. After getting married, she was indeed ready to fulfill her duties as a wife, no matter how repulsive it was for her. But during the ceremony, she conciously refused to bend her knee, thinking `why should I care of his feelings?`. Then she felt pity and shame, and bowed and kissed him like a proper wife, but initial instinct was not to bend the knee, not to care about him. She wasn`t to say it passively agressive towards him in the marrigae, just in that scene with the cloak during wedding.

Actually, Mladen, you had it right the first time. Sansa was not determined to do her duty and be a good wife to Tyrion as she'd been trained to do. It seems some get confused by her use of her courtesy armor as a weapon at times as some sort of social conditioning. Look at her wedding day and her actions while they are married and those all lend strong evidence to the idea that Sansa was giving Tyrion nothing but courtesy armor, the bare minimum that is expected from a wife.

First, the wedding night that is so often discussed. Again, the claim is made that Sansa was going to do her duty with Tyrion that night, implying that she was somehow brainwashed or conditioned to give her consent. But, that day, she had been threatened by Cersei who had told her that she would be wedded and bedded- no matter what she did, Joffrey had also threatened her that day by letting her know that Tyrion would deliver her to his bed whenever asked, she'd been groped again by Joffrey that day, she'd been escorted to the sept by Trant (who is one of those that treated her the worst of the bunch), and we have Tyrion's words that he would be smashing her portcullis which made her feel quite humiliated. Whatever motivations he may have had for this statement, it's a confirmation for everything that she has been told would happen to her that day. Next, they get back to their room and before any clothes are removed, Tyrion talks about them doing their duty, i.e.she has to have sex with him regardless of her feelings. Another confirmation that she has no choice in the matter. So, this idea that Sansa was merely determined to do her duty as a good wife really doesn't hold up when we look at the actual evidence on the page.

It's the exact same story if we look at their marriage too. The first order that Tyrion gives her as a Lord Husband is to take off her courtesy armor. So, Sansa, acting not at all like a proper and dutiful wife, does not follow his orders and do as he bids her, as a Lady Wife should. She then later tells him that she might never want him, again not something a dutiful wife would say. As to the marriage, we get many hints through Tyrion that Sansa is continuing to pay mere lip service and do the minimum required of her, using her courtesy armor as protection - even though she had been told not too. Notice their conversations together, she does not invite or engage with him any more than is necessary, any talk between the two of them is initiated by Tyrion. Hmm, so Sansa isn't trying very hard to be a good dutiful wife here either. She does not change her mind about sex with him, shows him no affection, avoids all physical contact with him unless it is forced on her. Remember the PW when they are forced to walk together? That same day, Tyrion wonders what would happen if he were to kiss her - further proof that she is not providing any affection or care for Tyrion as a good Lady Wife, trained and conditioned, should be doing. Of course, a good and dutiful wife also has a responsibility to tell her husband the truth, not withholding information from him. Yet, Sansa does just this thing when she lies about the godswood and invents excuses to avoid his company.

Now, let's go back to the wedding itself. She refuses to kneel for him, including him in as another Lannister. Later, she does let him kiss her which some seem to feel is proof that Sansa is determined to be a dutiful wife. But, her actual reasoning is pity. Sansa is feeling sorry for him, just as she does later on their wedding night. She doesn't respect him or care for him or look to him as her Lord Husband. She feels pity. Not so dutiful again.

Of course, there is her final act, running away from him at the Purple Wedding without looking back, forsaking all those vows that a good and dutiful wife should honor. Once gone, her thoughts of Tyrion are rather limited. She wants out of the marriage but doesn't want him dead, she thinks he is a liar, repeatedly replaces him with someone else when it comes to marriage and sex, and only brings him up as a way to avoid LF's betrothal plans.

Yes, indeed. I'd say Sansa Stark serves as a shining example of proper and dutiful behavior from a well-trained Lady Wife, unable to think for herself, an empty vessel who is content to merely do her duty and be a good wife to Tyrion. Except for the fact that she does not in any significant way.

[Mladen]

Actually, Mladen, you had it right the first time. Sansa was not determined to do her duty and be a good wife to Tyrion as she'd been trained to do. It seems some get confused by her use of her courtesy armor as a weapon at times as some sort of social conditioning. Look at her wedding day and her actions while they are married and those all lend strong evidence to the idea that Sansa was giving Tyrion nothing but courtesy armor, the bare minimum that is expected from a wife.

Oh, but I do believe that It was just courtesy armor. But, we can`t say she wasn`t ready to do what must have been done. Her every nerve is screaming `no`, but it`s her brain who says `obbey`. Especially, during that attempt of having intercourse, is nice indicator of Sansa`s personnal conflict, when her feelings and the sense of duty collided. And, I think Tyrion understood with time how little she cares for his feelings. Sansa was the passive agressive the whole time of their marriage. She played the good wife (I love that show btw), but she hated him nonetheless

Now, let's go back to the wedding itself. She refuses to kneel for him, including him in as another Lannister. Later, she does let him kiss her which some seem to feel is proof that Sansa is determined to be a dutiful wife. But, her actual reasoning is pity. Sansa is feeling sorry for him, just as she does later on their wedding night. She doesn't respect him or care for him or look to him as her Lord Husband. She feels pity. Not so dutiful again.

As I said, it was pity. And more interestingly is how deep and sincere she is. I mean her compassion must be one hell of the sentiment. When you understand her position, the fact she is so powerless and without a choice, and yet she had preserved that piece in her of the compassionate girl, we certainly talk about possibly the strongest personnality in Westeros. She was cold as Ice, she can be harsh, and Tyrion felt that, but she also feels compassion towards weak and tortured. And that pity and her coldness to all Lannisters is what destroyed the marriage in the first place.

[Kittykatknits]

Oh, but I do believe that It was just courtesy armor. But, we can`t say she wasn`t ready to do what must have been done. Her every nerve is screaming `no`, but it`s her brain who says `obbey`. Especially, during that attempt of having intercourse, is nice indicator of Sansa`s personnal conflict, when her feelings and the sense of duty collided. And, I think Tyrion understood with time how little she cares for his feelings. Sansa was the passive agressive the whole time of their marriage. She played the good wife (I love that show btw), but she hated him nonetheless

As I said, it was pity. And more interestingly is how deep and sincere she is. I mean her compassion must be one hell of the sentiment. When you understand her position, the fact she is so powerless and without a choice, and yet she had preserved that piece in her of the compassionate girl, we certainly talk about possibly the strongest personnality in Westeros. She was cold as Ice, she can be harsh, and Tyrion felt that, but she also feels compassion towards weak and tortured. And that pity and her coldness to all Lannisters is what destroyed the marriage in the first place.

I think we are in agreement. I sent you a PM. :)

[brashcandy]

Oh, but I do believe that It was just courtesy armor. But, we can`t say she wasn`t ready to do what must have been done. Her every nerve is screaming `no`, but it`s her brain who says `obbey`. Especially, during that attempt of having intercourse, is nice indicator of Sansa`s personnal conflict, when her feelings and the sense of duty collided. And, I think Tyrion understood with time how little she cares for his feelings. Sansa was the passive agressive the whole time of their marriage. She played the good wife (I love that show btw), but she hated him nonetheless.

Mladen what was evident in Kitty's really excellent post is that no, Sansa did not play the good wife. It's interesting how certain readers talk about her wanting to "spread her legs" as evidence that she's some brainwashed robot, but completely ignore her thoughts at the end of the chapter when she refuses to believe what Septa Mordane told her about all men being beautiful and doing one's duty. How was Sansa doing her duty when at the same time Tyrion was lamenting that he wanted her to bring him her sorrows, lust and ... whatever else he is lamenting? If we're equating doing one's duty to keeping to one's side of the bed then ok. Sansa was not willing to sleep with Tyrion, but she felt as though she didn't have a choice. Not because she was brainwashed into accepting this role either (if she was she never would have rejected the Septa's words), but because this marriage had been forced upon her.

[Mladen]

Mladen what was evident in Kitty's really excellent post is that no, Sansa did not play the good wife. It's interesting how certain readers talk about her wanting to "spread her legs" as evidence that she's some brainwashed robot, but completely ignore her thoughts at the end of the chapter when she refuses to believe what Septa Mordane told her about all men being beautiful and doing one's duty. How was Sansa doing her duty when at the same time Tyrion was lamenting that he wanted her to bring him her sorrows, lust and ... whatever else he is lamenting? If we're equating doing one's duty to keeping to one's side of the bed then ok. Sansa was not willing to sleep with Tyrion, but she felt as though she didn't have a choice. Not because she was brainwashed into accepting this role either (if she was she never would have rejected the Septa's words), but because this marriage had been forced upon her.

Brashcandy, you know what I think about this marriage, perhaps better than anyone. And I hope you didn`t involve me among those I bolded. I was saying that Sansa confronted her emotions with her sense of duty, and that she was giving to Tyrion, the bare minimum like Kitty said, in terms of doing courtesies in public and such things.

[brashcandy]

Brashcandy, you know what I think about this marriage, perhaps better than anyone. And I hope you didn`t involve me among those I bolded. I was saying that Sansa confronted her emotions with her sense of duty, and that she was giving to Tyrion, the bare minimum like Kitty said, in terms of doing courtesies in public and such things.

No Mladen, I'm not saying you share those views, but I'm confused about this "sense of duty" I keep hearing about. Are you saying that Sansa felt it was her duty to sleep with/be a good wife to Tyrion?

[morgan1028]

this is why I hardly ever post...

[Mladen]

No Mladen, I'm not saying you share those views, but I'm confused about this "sense of duty" I keep hearing about. Are you saying that Sansa felt it was her duty to sleep with/be a good wife to Tyrion?

I think she was more compelled to that, then it was some sort of her desire or choice. After getting married, I believe she was all like `I crossed the Rubicon` mood, so she was compelled to behave like a wife due to all the lessons she was taught like a lady and her general sense of solitude, powerlessnes and entrapment. But, I also see the wonderful and very deep battle between those emotions and her strength and her hatred towards Lannisters. At the end she became his wife for public knowledge, but never his wife in terms of intimacy and `being one soul`.

[brashcandy]

I think she was more compelled to that, then it was some sort of her desire or choice. After getting married, I believe she was all like `I crossed the Rubicon` mood, so she was compelled to behave like a wife due to all the lessons she was taught like a lady and her general sense of solitude, powerlessnes and entrapment. But, I also see the wonderful and very deep battle between those emotions and her strength and her hatred towards Lannisters. At the end she became his wife for public knowledge, but never his wife in terms of intimacy and `being one soul`.

Hmmm, alrightie. But I don't see any evidence in the text of Sansa either wanting to or being a good wife to Tyrion. I see evidence of someone who's spent the day being terrorized and embarrassed, and who believes that she'll be "wedded and bedded" whether she likes it or not. I see Martin making it pretty clear that Sansa pities Tyrion, and that "pity is death to desire" or whatever the exact quote is. And I confess to being more than a little disturbed when Sansa's ladylike demeanour is used as evidence that she's willing to subject herself to abuse (not that you said this). Anyways, thanks for explaining Mladen.

[Mladen]

Hmmm, alrightie. But I don't see any evidence in the text of Sansa either wanting to or being a good wife to Tyrion. I see evidence of someone who's spent the day being terrorized and embarrassed, and who believes that she'll be "wedded and bedded" whether she likes it or not. I see Martin making it pretty clear that Sansa pities Tyrion, and that "pity is death to desire" or whatever the exact quote is. And I confess to being more than a little disturbed when Sansa's ladylike demeanour is used as evidence that she's willing to subject herself to abuse (not that you said this). Anyways, thanks for explaining Mladen.

That`s why I used the word `compelled`. I am forced to watch Vampire diaries with my niece every morning, so the word stayed in my mind.

[morgan1028]

boing

[Kittykatknits]

Mladen what was evident in Kitty's really excellent post is that no, Sansa did not play the good wife. It's interesting how certain readers talk about her wanting to "spread her legs" as evidence that she's some brainwashed robot, but completely ignore her thoughts at the end of the chapter when she refuses to believe what Septa Mordane told her about all men being beautiful and doing one's duty. How was Sansa doing her duty when at the same time Tyrion was lamenting that he wanted her to bring him her sorrows, lust and ... whatever else he is lamenting? If we're equating doing one's duty to keeping to one's side of the bed then ok. Sansa was not willing to sleep with Tyrion, but she felt as though she didn't have a choice. Not because she was brainwashed into accepting this role either (if she was she never would have rejected the Septa's words), but because this marriage had been forced upon her.

Was thinking about it and Sansa's courtesy armor really does stand out as a not just a defense but a weapon against Tyrion. During the PW, she talks with Kevan and Lancel and Tyrion tells us that Kevan is practically glowing from her words. But, it's different with Tyrion. Sansa took on the courtesy armor as a way to survive at court and we see it serves her quite well. It keeps Tyrion at a distance and it turns out to be the perfect weapon against him. Tyrion is good with words and can be very quick to think on his feet. But, Sansa hides behind her armor and refuses to engage, denying him that opportunity. Tyrion also does not forget a slight (like so many other Lannisters), whether real or perceived, such as his feelings towards Benjen, Alister Thorne, Lysa, or anyone else. But Sansa is merely refusing to engage, keeping her distance. Tyrion grows frustrated but she doesn't give him anything to work with. He says it himself, when he compares her to the Wall. His weapons turn out to be useless against her in the end.

[TalalOfDorne]

Saying "no" in the middle of the vows wont really change anything. This is the crown she's going against, and if they want her married it will happen regardless of what she says in the wedding. How will this be received publicly? It could go many ways, but if anyone wants to stay close to the crown they would be smart not to question that marriage.

[morgan1028]

you people should private message each other because there is no response to anything anyone else says besides you... 4. Everyone else is ignored.. Where the hells is Happy Ent???

[Winter's Knight]

It should be pointed out that by not kicking up a fuss, Sansa ensures that surveillance over her will be minimal. By getting everyone to see her as meek and cowed, she keeps people from suspecting that she's trying to escape.

[Florina Laufeyson]

It should be pointed out that by not kicking up a fuss, Sansa ensures that surveillance over her will be minimal. By getting everyone to see her as meek and cowed, she keeps people from suspecting that she's trying to escape.

This is true. When she isnt acting semi-catatonic that is. A subtle form of flying under the radar.

[Winter's Knight]

This is true. When she isnt acting semi-catatonic that is. A subtle form of flying under the radar.

Omg Mutley. Now I'm picturing you doing that horrible snigger...

[Florina Laufeyson]

There is no way to type out that actual snicker. Mutley is so judgin' all of youse. It is known.