Why did Sansa marry Tyrion.

[Lady Nastja]

Sansa married Tyrion because she had to. She was virtually a prisoner, highborn but not truly important at all, other than acting as a hostage to keep her brother at bay, which didn't actually work. If she were to say no, you can be sure that Cersei would force her to marry Tyrion anyway...and make her suffer for her "insolense."

[Rhaegarsjoy]

I think you're right about Arya, she's too hotheaded.

However with Sansa that's an exaggeration. She wouldn't have killed herself because of cutting off her hair, what she would fail at is convincingly pretending to be a boy. In any case, if the roles were reversed, there's no way Yoren would try to disguise her as a boy! She's starting to develop a womanly body, it's too obvious. It works with Arya because she's tiny and skinny enough to pull it off. Yoren would probably try something different like pass her off as a commoner, oh I don't know, wineseller? Pigfarmer's daughter? anything really...

Of course not literally kill herself but probably she would probably complain n cry the entire trip that more than one of those boys bound for the wall would have done her in since they can't be sent to the wall twice.

[The Storm Queen]

I think you're right about Arya, she's too hotheaded.

However with Sansa that's an exaggeration. She wouldn't have killed herself because of cutting off her hair, what she would fail at is convincingly pretending to be a boy. In any case, if the roles were reversed, there's no way Yoren would try to disguise her as a boy! She's starting to develop a womanly body, it's too obvious. It works with Arya because she's tiny and skinny enough to pull it off. Yoren would probably try something different like pass her off as a commoner, oh I don't know, wineseller? Pigfarmer's daughter? anything really...

Yes, I also really liked Martin´s realism here: At the beginning of her journey no one bats an eye concerning "boy" Arya but gradually people start to look through her disguise. Especially on that ship to Bravos when the pedophile identifies her as a girl without trouble. Sansa from the beginning is too developed to pass as a boy but two years (?) in, Arya is starting to encounter the same problem.

Concerning option 2 for Yoren, I cannot see him being able to keep Sansa disguised as a commoner safe until Winterfell, we got a pretty good look on the situation in the Riverlands and it was not encouraging at all.

Bit out of topic: Is this Lyanna Stark as your avatar? It is really beautifully done, she looks exactly like I imagine her and the painter refrained from turning her into a supermodel which I sadly see rather often as casting choice/presentation

[Tagganaro]

Because she had to? The "choice" that was given to her was pretty much false, she could go along with it or object and get beaten/humiliated/forced to go along with it anyway. If I'm given those 2 options, I go with option 1 every single freaking time. I also love how she goes along with it, then refuses to kneel for Tyrion and embarrasses him in the process. One of my favorite moments of her arc. But I don't really see what could be accomplished by choosing "option" 2. It's a false option, that any character with a brain would never, ever choose since it would have the same result as option 1 except with more beating/humiliation.

Sansa in a way manages to keep more dignity by going with option 1, and then not bending her knee to preserve her pride.

[bbstark]

Yes, I also really liked Martin´s realism here: At the beginning of her journey no one bats an eye concerning "boy" Arya but gradually people start to look through her disguise. Especially on that ship to Bravos when the pedophile identifies her as a girl without trouble. Sansa from the beginning is too developed to pass as a boy but two years (?) in, Arya is starting to encounter the same problem.

Bit out of topic: Is this Lyanna Stark as your avatar? It is really beautifully done, she looks exactly like I imagine her and the painter refrained from turning her into a supermodel which I sadly see rather often as casting choice/presentation

yep, and I think Arya becomes more careful throughout her journey, probably as a result of being found out. Arya in DwD would not spit at joffrey for being a little shit to everyone. I think the way she acts in Dance indicates she'd find some sneaky way for payback (maybe even kill him?)

My avatar is actually Visenya :) it's the same artist as yours, and the background is the Targ sigil... I'm not that crazy about the Targs (though some of them are fascinating), but just like Lady Arya I think Visenya needs some respect ;)

[Mladen]

Sansa married Tyrion because she had to. She was virtually a prisoner, highborn but not truly important at all, other than acting as a hostage to keep her brother at bay, which didn't actually work. If she were to say no, you can be sure that Cersei would force her to marry Tyrion anyway...and make her suffer for her "insolense."

Sansa was anything but unimportant. In the time of Tyrion/Sansa wedding, Tywin already began planning RW and the doom of House Stark. He needed Sansa as key of the North, to bring peace to largest Kingdom. Tywin did this perfectly for his cause, giving Tyrion Winterfell, so he wouldn`t take CR, and controlling North. Cersei had no say in this, this was pure Tywin

[bbstark]

Sansa was anything but unimportant. In the time of Tyrion/Sansa wedding, Tywin already began planning RW and the doom of House Stark. He needed Sansa as key of the North, to bring peace to largest Kingdom. Tywin did this perfectly for his cause, giving Tyrion Winterfell, so he wouldn`t take CR, and controlling North. Cersei had no say in this, this was pure Tywin

I think when people say "Sansa was not important" what they mean is she wasn't important as a person. Nobody saw her as a person with important feelings that needed to be taken into account. However as a Stark, and heir to winterfell, and woman of a marriageable age she has a "value", and that value is diplomacy.

At least I hope that's what they mean, or otherwise, they have no clue about medieval diplomacy.

In medieaval Europe, Deiplomacy IS royal/aristocratic marriage.

[Éadaoin]

Because she had to? The "choice" that was given to her was pretty much false, she could go along with it or object and get beaten/humiliated/forced to go along with it anyway. If I'm given those 2 options, I go with option 1 every single freaking time. I also love how she goes along with it, then refuses to kneel for Tyrion and embarrasses him in the process. One of my favorite moments of her arc. But I don't really see what could be accomplished by choosing "option" 2. It's a false option, that any character with a brain would never, ever choose since it would have the same result as option 1 except with more beating/humiliation.

Sansa in a way manages to keep more dignity by going with option 1, and then not bending her knee to preserve her pride.

Great post. Haven't read through the whole thread yet but I agree with this wholeheartedly.

[Jon Snow eats wild beaver]

Are we talking about the same Arya who became a "mouse" in Harrenhall? The same Arya who said nothing when a charming old lady suggested raping her with a broom? Arya works very hard to survive. So does Sansa. Both have a good feeling for how much rebellion they can or cannot afford.

Concerning the Lannister/LF program this is so ridiculous, I can´t even.... These people have her hit with iron cloves in her stomage, they forced her into a marriage with a man who fights against her family, they stripped her in front of the court, they perved on her etc. Did you miss all of the passages in the book where Sansa misses her family, rebuilds Winterfell as a snow castle, reminds herself whose daughter she in fact is and finds comfort in the howling of wolves?

Whoa, whoa let's examine this, shall we? She was the mouse at Harrenhall. Then what happened? You cannot just pick your spot in time without following it to the conclusion. Jaqen Hgar made Arya bloody, because Arya was so greedy for it, and because the bloodletting at Harrenhall was directly because of Arya. That was a bloodbath. And Arya caused it. I'll say it again: Arya made those choices. The two good wives taunting Arya? Aren't they dead?

And Sansa - still under the thumb of someone. I understand you realize Sansa doesn't have the stomach to tromp through the wretched refuse of the sewers of Kings Landing to escape. That is exactly my point. Sansa is married to Tyrion because she is Sansa. She goes along to get along. The text has never shown us anything more from Sansa. Does she have it in her to defy anyone she perceives as having power over her? Not yet. She's no Asha. She's no Margaery. She's no Arianne. She's definitely no Arya. I'll stay tuned, though.

EDIT: just reread my post and although I think my assessment is pretty spot on, it also comes across as pretty snotty. I am not trying to belittle Sansa fans, or call in question why they are Sansa fans. I'm just hoping to get the actions and consequences and the long arc of history thing across. Sansa had choices that led her up to her marriage. But the thing is, Sansa and Arya both still have their maidenhood (for whoever thinks that matters), and they have both come to less precarious, more comfortable positions. And I admit I am not a Sansa fan, but I do understand the inclination for those who are.

[Minsc]

Whoa, whoa let's examine this, shall we? She was the mouse at Harrenhall. Then what happened? You cannot just pick your spot in time without following it to the conclusion. Jaqen Hgar made Arya bloody, because Arya was so greedy for it, and because the bloodletting at Harrenhall was directly because of Arya. That was a bloodbath. And Arya caused it. I'll say it again: Arya made those choices. The two good wives taunting Arya? Aren't they dead?

And Sansa - still under the thumb of someone. I understand you realize Sansa doesn't have the stomach to tromp through the wretched refuse of the sewers of Kings Landing to escape. That is exactly my point. Sansa is married to Tyrion because she is Sansa. She goes along to get along. The text has never shown us anything more from Sansa. Does she have it in her to defy anyone she perceives as having power over her? Not yet. She's no Asha. She's no Margaery. She's no Arianne. She's definitely no Arya. I'll stay tuned, though.

Sansa has absolutely no real allies so how was she supposed to escape by herself?

Notice how you mentioned Jaqen in your statement, it displays how even "magical" Arya is not doing everything by herself instead she has to rely on allies and friends be it Syrio, Yoren, or Jaqen. Moreover, most of Arya's allies are doing it out of a generally caring for Arya while Sansa is stuck in the viper pit where her only "allies" are generally acting with hidden motives like Littlefinger and the Tyrells.

Moreover, even if she somehow escaped through the sewers of King's Landing what is she supposed to next? Especially, seeing how unlike Arya she cannot pass for a boy thus would likely be raped by the first group of thugs that she encounters while traveling through the wildness.

[Jon Snow eats wild beaver]

Of course Sansa has allies.

These are two young girls. They have to rely on allies. Sansa has had the compassion of many people in her story. You are actually thinking the way Sansa would think: omg, even if I escaped through the awful smelling sewers, would could I do next? I'll probably be raped just like Cersei told me I would, by the first group of boys I see travelling through the wilderness. That is exactly the point! Sansa does not see a way out. She believes she is caught in the program. Hence, she is married to a toerag of a dwarf. Which is the answer to the original post, non?

[Minsc]

Of course Sansa has allies.

These are two young girls. They have to rely on allies. Sansa has had the compassion of many people in her story. You are actually thinking the way Sansa would think: omg, even if I escaped through the awful smelling sewers, would could I do next? I'll probably be raped just like Cersei told me I would, by the first group of boys I see travelling through the wilderness. That is exactly the point! Sansa does not see a way out. She believes she is caught in the program. Hence, she is married to a toerag of a dwarf. Which is the answer to the original post, non?

What allies does Sansa have that aren't motivated by ulterior motives? Yes, I am thinking that way as hint from the story suggests that is what would likely occur if she somehow made it out on her own in a somewhat similar to degree as Arya. Simply, she is actually stuck with either the Lannisters, Tyrells, or Littlefinger she doesn't have the option to scurry around in the wildness.

[Jon Snow eats wild beaver]

Well, Alys Carstark made it to the wall by scurrying around in the wilderness, in a war, no less, and didn't have to marry her betrothed. And she was similarly skilled, as in she is a lady and I suppose she does some fine needlepoint. That proves it can be done in this world. But the point is, again, Sansa would never do it. More to the point, Sansa didn't do it.

She was stuck because that is what she believes. Have any number of people at court not shown her kindness? She obviously wasn't that stuck because when push came to shove, and she was implicated along with her husband Tyrion, Littlefinger got her out and now she's in the Vale undercover. You tell me, does she have to stay there? Will she stay there?

There are obviously ways out of Kings Landing because her husband, Tyrion, that giant of Lannister, is out and on the prowl somewhere in Essos.

Again: Sansa married Tyrion because her choices led her to it. Right there at the altar? No, she didn't have any choice. By that time, it was too late. From the time she left Winterfell up to that time? Baa baa little Sansa, have you any wool? Yessir! Yessir! Three bags full!

[Minsc]

She was stuck because that is what she believes. Have any number of people at court not shown her kindness? She obviously wasn't that stuck because when push came to shove, and she was implicated along with her husband Tyrion, Littlefinger got her out and now she's in the Vale undercover. You tell me, does she have to stay there? Will she stay there?

Beside Sandor, almost everyone that helps Sansa has ulterior motives and other loyalties.

Tyrion is completely loyal to the Lannister War Cause thus won't let her go for anything less then Jaime.

Dontas is friendly because of Littlefinger

The Tyrells only care about her claim thus will only help her "escape" if it means they get her.

Littlefinger is Littlefinger

So tell me what options did Sansa have to escape from King's Landing that don't end up horrible for her?

[Dicer]

Baa baa little Sansa, have you any wool? Yessir! Yessir! Three bags full!

:lmao:

[Jon Snow eats wild beaver]

Again, you are thinking like Sansa. 'No options that don't end up horrible for her.'

The Tyrells don't seem to be that horrible. Wasn't she willing to marry Will.I.am, or whatever his name is? The cripple. Seriously, I forgot his name. And Sandor Clegane is someone I was thinking of, because he has since shown he is willing to sell Starks for cash, has an affinity for Sansa, and probably won't rape her.

But you know what? Anything I bring up rests on one thing: the ability of a sheep to make a decision for herself. The ability of a lemming to take a chance, or to buck a system she thinks she is stuck in. Sometimes good things happen to people who try to escape. And sometimes, bad things happen to people to trust in the goodness and kindness of the court in Kings Landing. I mean, isn't Cersei giving Qyburn a steady diet of courtiers? Wasn't Jeyne Poole at court somewhere and didn't Littlefinger get ahold of her or something? Whether or not Sansa could have gotten out of her wedding (and out of court) is moot. She didn't. The rest is conjecture. But other people, other girls, sure have, though. Doesn't it make you go hmm, even a little bit?

Anyhow, you go ahead thinking that Sansa is the poor little rich kid. I believe the stories have shown us that she has had options from the beginning. I like your picture, by the way. Go for the eyes, boo! Go for the eyes!

EDIT: and actually, that toerag Tyrion didn't let Sansa go even with Jaime's return. A Lannister always pays his debts? Horseshit!

[Minsc]

Yes, she was willing to marry Willas an option that could only occur after Joffrey's wedding but before that could happen Tyrion married her thus that doesn't count for complaining. And Sandor was terrifyingly drunk and had just placed a knife under her throat when he was offering to help her escape, common sense dictates that is probably a terrible idea to go with him in that state.

So far the only examples you have given either she took or would have been ridiculously stupid for her to take.

Basically, you are calling her a sheep because she doesn't stupidly risk death or rape in futile attempts to escape.

[Lady Lu]

Well, Alys Carstark made it to the wall by scurrying around in the wilderness, in a war, no less, and didn't have to marry her betrothed. And she was similarly skilled, as in she is a lady and I suppose she does some fine needlepoint. That proves it can be done in this world. But the point is, again, Sansa would never do it. More to the point, Sansa didn't do it.

To be fair, Alys was in her own territory, pretty far north of where all the fighting was, not a prisoner of the royal family and under the eye of all the forces they command (i.e. kingsguard, gold cloaks), presumably had household staff and friends who were loyal to her instead of those trying to remove Karhold from the Rickard Karstak line, ran to a man to help her, said man broke his vows to intervene in her case and physically imprisoned the folks who were trying to marry her off, and she still ended up marrying a wildling to resolve the situation. Alys had a rather extraordinary ally and a lot more factors in her favor than Sansa Stark had in hers. The Alys-Sigorn resolution (contrived by Jon Snow/Melisandre, not Alys) is roughly analogous to Sansa agreeing to marry a Tyrell to escape the Lannisters, a decision for which Sansa has also received a lot of flack while Alys is thought to have gumption.

[Jon Snow eats wild beaver]

Yes, she was willing to marry Willas an option that could only occur after Joffrey's wedding but before that could happen Tyrion married her thus that doesn't count for complaining. And Sandor was terrifyingly drunk and had just placed a knife under her throat when he was offering to help her escape, common sense dictates that is probably a terrible idea to go with him in that state.

So far the only examples you have given either she took or would have been ridiculously stupid for her to take.

Basically, you are calling her a sheep because she doesn't stupidly risk death or rape in futile attempts to escape.

Actually, she didn't take the Tyrell option. That would have involved actually doing something proactive (not needlework), like leaving Kings Landing until she can get married, preferably in Highgarden. Which she would never do, because it would never occur to her, because she goes along to get along, because she believes in the system.

And honestly, when is Sandor not terrifyingly drunk? Yeah, because like its not incredibly stupid to stay in Kings Landing after being psychologically and physically abused the way she has been? Yeah, its stupidly...wait...did you say - futile? Futile attempts at escape? Is this Sansa? Honestly, is that you? Because Sansa, baa baaaa baaa mehh (translation: it sure sounds like you, again)! Because to you, escape is impossible. Just trust that politeness will get you what you want. We all know how honorable Kings Landing is. And except for the glaring fact that your sister escaped.

To be fair, Alys was in her own territory, pretty far north of where all the fighting was, not a prisoner of the royal family and under the eye of all the forces they command (i.e. kingsguard, gold cloaks), presumably had household staff and friends who were loyal to her instead of those trying to remove Karhold from the Rickard Karstak line, ran to a man to help her, said man broke his vows to intervene in her case and physically imprisoned the folks who were trying to marry her off, and she still ended up marrying a wildling to resolve the situation. Alys had a rather extraordinary ally and a lot more factors in her favor than Sansa Stark had in hers. The Alys-Sigorn resolution (contrived by Jon Snow/Melisandre, not Alys) is roughly analogous to Sansa agreeing to marry a Tyrell to escape the Lannisters, a decision for which Sansa has also received a lot of flack while Alys is thought to have gumption.

All true. Sansa would have had to have taken chances, more chances Alys did, would have had to have trusted people to help her, and would have had to have had some luck. Alys merely shows its possible. Unless the person in question is Sansa. In which case, something like this is impossible. And she gets to marry a half-nosed half-pint because her steps that led her to the altar, which go all the way through the time when her father was Hand of the King, and all his loyal men, and she had already seen a hint of what Joff and Cersei were capable of, right up to the bait and switch Cersei used.

I guess I'll say it again: Sansa married Tyrion because she made choices that led her to her situation. She has had choices. She is not a slave being frogmarched from one place to the next. Well, actually, she is, but only because she believes she is.

[Minsc]

Actually, she didn't take the Tyrell option. That would have involved actually doing something proactive (not needlework), like leaving Kings Landing until she can get married, preferably in Highgarden. Which she would never do, because it would never occur to her, because she goes along to get along, because she believes in the system..

Maybe you should actually read the books rather then trying to insult the character or me. Seeing how the Tyrells directly say they cannot act until after Joffrey and Margaery's wedding. Therefore, Sansa has no way of leaving King's Landing and going to Highgarden until a time after her forced marriage to Tyrion.

When Sandor offered to rescue her while drunk and threatening her there was still a strong possibility that Stannis might win and take the city, thus ending her beatings and terror in how he isn't stupidly cruel. Furthermore, she also has the option that Dontos is offering to help her escape.

edit: Arya escaped because she had Syrio sacrifice his life for her and then Yoren came by and picked her and disguised her as a boy. Tell me who the Syrio and Yoren that Sansa has to rescue her from King's Landing?