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Angalin

R+L=J v.48

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Starting again with a reminder to stay on-topic and civil to other posters.

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Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practised in centuries, is it still even legal?

The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the KG at ToJ on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in lineany time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the KG might have stayed at ToJ, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Quote

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

R+L=J v. 41 (thread forty-one)

R+L=J v.42 (thread forty-two)

R+L=J v. 43 (thread forty-three)

R+L=J v.44 (thread forty-four)

R+L=J v.45 (thread forty-five)

R+L=J v.46 (thread forty-six)

R+L=J v.47 (thread forty-seven)

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Right stay on topic. However I would like to take time have a brief moment of silence for Sanka. Sanka the flavorless bastard son coffee, you never expect much, you never get much. We didn't expect much from Sanka he started out slow and dull, with not much to say. But he was fighter down, little bastard had no quit in him, every day you expected him to stop, you thought this would be the last post. But he just kept going, like the little engine that could. Here is to you Sanka, you were one hell of a cup of Joe and their will never be a version 47 like you again. Go into the light now little friend, go into the light.

SANKA!!!!!!!!

Alright now I have to find Gwyns post and respond.

Oh and the new version needs a name?

She's spicey, she's sweet, she's a tangy treat. She is a one calorie pocket full of dynamite, you know her you love her, ladys and gentleman, boys and girls, kids of all ages, I give you... Tic Tac...!!!!!!!! The one calorie wonder from down under.

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Okay let me start with this. I saw some other stuff I wanted to chat about as well. Oh and if you need the the general timeline for Aegons kids I have that, it's pretty simple really, posted it before. The Tourney at Lannisport is a great timeline indicator for a lot of events around the Time of Rhaegar and the mad king. It took place in early 276 and just about 2 years later in early 278 Rhaegar wed Elia. Of course you have 18 months of pregnancy and another 18 months of time Elia could not do anything to account for. Simple math. It tells you when she could and could not have been pregnant. Anyway back to this.

"So here is Catelyn's POV about Brandon and Lyanna's disappearance"

"My reading of this is that Brandon was returning to Riverrun and his "hearing" about Lyanna had nothing to do with the Tully family. Remember that he left after the duel with Littlefinger (that is the conversation between Cat and Brandon that Ser Creighton is referencing above.) IMO that departure had nothing to do with Lyanna's disappearance. According to Catelyn's memory above, Brandon only learned about Lyanna as he was returning. He did not have an argument with Hoster Tully. Hoster raged about Brandon's headstrong rush "when the news was brought to Riverrun." Also, Cat does not use the term kidnapping, abduction or even disappearance. She says Brandon "heard about about Lyanna" To me that indicates that Lyanna has done something. If the action was taken by Rhaegar alone, it seems likely she would identify him as the subject in her memory. In fact, as that passage continues and Jaime relates how Brandon rode into King's Landing demanding Rhaegar come out and die, doesn't it read more like the story unfolding is one of a brother rushing off to call out the man who eloped with his sister, rather than a brother who wants to save his sister? I understand there are various interpretations of this, but it's important to note that no one in these POVs mentions kidnapping. Not Ned, not Catelyn, and not Jaime in Cat's POV. As Ygrain notes, the kidnapping story seems to arise after Brandon's mad rush into KL. It's easy to see how this dramatic event would lead people to wonder what happened and come up with a plausible story which, given the high profile of the families involved would spread quickly. We see this all the time IRL with tabloid news. Given the quickly unfolding events, it's no wonder this quickly became the "official" version."

"My opinion on the events leading up to the disappearance is always evolving. I agree with Dragontamer that we are missing a huge piece of information regarding the complicated whys and hows of R+L. Was it planned, for how long in advance, what were the feelings of those involved and what was the purpose of it. Based on the timeline information I posted on the previous page, I think I can present the following scenario with a minimum of hypothesizing:"

"After Harrenhal, the Starks and Robert Baratheon returned to Winterfell, where the betrothal of Lyanna Stark to RB was announced. We have Ned's recollections of Lyanna's comments about Robert to support this. Brandon may have been present, or may have gone to Riverrun instead. IF he was at WF, he left after a short time and went to Riverrun, where the duel with LF occurred. What may have happened next is this: Ned, Robert and Lyanna depart WF together. They travel as far as the Inn at the Crossroads together. Ned and Robert head east for the Vale and Lyanna bides her time, waiting for Brandon to come escort her to Riverrun. While she waits, Rhaegar et al show up (either by design or not--- that is one question we simply cannot answer now) and the abduction/disappearance/elopement/call it what you will occurs. Upon arriving at the Crossroads, Brandon hears about his sister's disappearance and gallops hell for leather to KL."

What supports this? A number of things-

1. The timeline observation I reference above and elaborated on in an earlier post. Ned and Lyanna appear to have been at WF together after the Tourney for the announcement of the bethrothal of Lyanna and Robert. It makes sense that Robert would have been present as well.

2. We know that Ned and Robert returned to the Vale, as that is where they were when Aerys called for their heads.

3. We know Brandon left Riverrun after his duel with LF on a mission that did not appear to be urgent or dangerous.

4. Hoster Tully was angry at Brandon's precipitous dash to KL-- did he know something (that's a whole different crackpot theory, best saved for elsewhere..) or was this an example of a seasoned older Lord simply wishing Brandon had waited to find out all the facts before charging into the royal Keep demanding the life of the Crown Prince?

5. Why did Aerys demand Ned's and Robert's heads? Could it be that they were rumored or known to be present or nearby? From Aerys' perspective, perhaps the disappearance of his heir seemed like another plot against his house? If he was in the dark about Rhaegar's plans (whatever they may have been) might his paranoid reaction not have been to assume that his son was the one who had been kidnapped? So close to Duskendale too... bound to have raised some demons in his twisted brain.

6. Finally- the Inn at the Crossroad. Notice how Martin continues to return to this location for events great and small? I think it's more than coincidence and we'll continue to see more events unfold there."

Okay well I want to get to the Littlefinger stuff but that needs to wait, I am going to try and put together a quote timeline based on the POV's from the books in the order of the books.

First I don't think Robert had ever come into the North before. AGoT ch. 4, Robert and Ned had not seen eachother in 9 years not since the Greyjoy rebellion. While walking down the steps to the crypts, Robert makes multiple comments about the north and it seems like he has never been there before. Most notable is this: "Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent in north of the Neck. I have never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people Ned?" This pretty much indicates he has never been in the North, as he states he has "never seen such a vast emptiness"

I believe after Harrenhal Ned and Robert are in the Vale, that's actually where Ned and Robert live during this time.

I don't think Aerys thought Ned and Robert were near by that's why he sent the letter to the Vale calling for their heads. Aerys suffered from paranoia, and generally thought someone was after his Crown. It's why he went to Harrenhal, not that he was wrong, Rhaegar did want to dipose him. I am also not sure why Ned and Robert would leave Lyanna and go back to the Vale when there brother was going to get married at Riverrun.

He does like the crossroads inn. Not sure if it's a major plot point for Rhaegar and Lyanna though.

Lyannas coversation with Ned may take place pre Harrenhal, we don't know when Robert and her were betrothed, but the marriage could have been arranged a long time in advance. Lyanna was not of age yet so they may have just been waiting for her to turn 16. People always think it's the moon blood that makes women adults in the world of Westeros. But according to Jon in Dance it seems that tradictionally it's the 16th name day for both boys and girls that marks adulthood. Of course exceptions are made all the time. We have even seen babies betrothed in Westeros, that does not mean the yare getting married next week. Sometimes it does which is a little scary and but other times it does not. It's midevil laws rules are bent all the time. Ned may have gone to Winterfell to ride with his family to Harrenhall, that may be where he spoke with Lyanna, I am sure he also visted from time to time. Could of been post Harrenhal, just I am pretty sure Robert was not there.

I'll have to look up Brandon, Cat Littlefinger again.

As for my comment about contradictions, it was a little bit longer conversation than that, so part of it is left out. Throughout the books we have contradictions from the POV's, which is pretty standard stuff. I was being asked if I knew the perception the general public had of Lyanna and Rhaegar and when the whole kidnapping thing started. My reply was I don't really know if we are ever really told that. S owe just went over some of the basics of what happened. It was not a real indepth look at it. One of the major contradictions that may exist is how the Lords and Lady's see it and how the common folk view it. That's why I brought up Elder brother, who was one step above a commoner when he fought at the Trident. However Bran seems to think it was kidnapping. Which I believe he states, not sure who told him that, or if it's a general view. But he is Neds son and that kind of talk must of been around Winterfell.

If you want a little help with the timeline don't forget the Barbrey Dustin speech about Brandon. You find where Brandon was living and what he was doing located there. The Characters I like to go over for this thread are usually anything Lyanna, Rhaegar, Brandon, Rickard, Jon Arryn, Aerys II, Elder Brother, Robert, Cat, Ned, Arya. The way I like doing the timeline is to go book by book and get the quotes then piece it all together. All the Chapters for Rhaegar, Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard, Aerys II, Jon Arryn, and Robert are listed at the bottom of the wiki pages. I think it's important to do them in the order that Martin presents them, as he is telling a story in that order for a reason and we get a better idea of where he is leading us. Actually I should try doing a chapter and book order of what came first. Significant quotes for this thread. But that will take some time, it's a lot of chapters and a lot of quotes.

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A good catch with Robert reacting as if he had never visited North before, so he probably didn't. The conversation mentioning Mya then may have taken place just prior Harrenhall - perhaps Ned went visiting home to bring Robert's request for betrothal, and the young Starks together then travelled to Harrenhall.

On women's adulthood: we have Alys Karstark mentioning that she was betrothed to Harrion (?) and they were waiting with the wedding till she flowered. We also have one of Marge's cousins, who is referred to by Sansa as a woman flowered, and she makes the same erference to herself as Alayne in the connection of taking up adult responsibilities.

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This premise always puzzled me. I can understand that Rhaegar and Lyanna probably had sex and a kid together. But, correct me if I am wrong, is there any evidence that they may have married? Because it would make sense, but I don't remember seeing any evidence that this was the case. People have used this premise to argue that Jon is legally a Targaryen as opposed to a Stark bastard, but this seems a bit too convenient IMO.

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The thing that makes people, as well as me, think that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is the Kingsguard staying there with Jon and Lyanna after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon had died. This would mean that the Kingsguard heard about the Trident and The Sack and stayed at the ToJ to protect their rightful king.

If Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna then Jon would be a Targ bastard and the Kingsguard wouldn't need to stay there and protect a bastard and they'd go and protect Viserys instead.

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Fetch me a block, I remember that you haven't read AGOT from another thread, and sorry but shouldn't you read it before asking such questions? That's where most of the evidence is.

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The thing that makes people, as well as me, think that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is the Kingsguard staying there with Jon and Lyanna after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon had died. This would mean that the Kingsguard heard about the Trident and The Sack and stayed at the ToJ to protect their rightful king.

If Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna then Jon would be a Targ bastard and the Kingsguard wouldn't need to stay there and protect a bastard and they'd go and protect Viserys instead.

See this is what I thought, but it could just as easily be that they were there because Jon is AA.

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Fetch me a block, I remember that you haven't read AGOT from another thread, and sorry but shouldn't you read it before asking such questions? That's where most of the evidence is.

Give me any one quote from AGOT that suggests Lyanna and Rhaegar married.

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See this is what I thought, but it could just as easily be that they were there because Jon is AA.

Why would they think that though? They probably didnt even know about AAR. There is no concrete evidence to say Lyanna and Rhaegar married, its a conclusion that some people have come to after reading the book. To say they thought he was AAR and thats why they stayed makes no sense they were KINGSGUARD sworn to protect the KING... Not anyone else!

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Give me any one quote from AGOT that suggests Lyanna and Rhaegar married.

The fact that the KINGSguard is at the ToJ is a pretty good indication. There's also the fact that Mormont's raven keeps calling Jon "King," which he would be if the Targs were still the ruling family.

I personally like this gem from Ned's first chapter:

Ned: “Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!”

ETA: the fact that Lyanna is highly associated with crowns also speaks to this.

Also, my dear Fetch, 2 things:

1. Please read aGoT. It's really the only way to fully get R + L

2. This should have been asked in the R +L thread pinned to the top rather than its own thread

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See this is what I thought, but it could just as easily be that they were there because Jon is AA.

The Kingsguard are loyal, but I don't think they'd stay because Rhaegar told them Jon was AAR, I don't even think he told them. I think the only reason they stayed was because Jon was the rightful heir.

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The fact that the KINGSguard is at the ToJ is a pretty good indication. There's also the fact that Mormont's raven keeps calling Jon "King," which he would be if the Targs were still the ruling family.

I personally like this gem from Ned's first chapter:

Ned: “Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!”

ETA: the fact that Lyanna is highly associated with crowns also speaks to this.

Also, my dear Fetch, 2 things:

1. Please read aGoT. It's really the only way to fully get R + L

2. This should have been asked in the R +L thread pinned to the top rather than its own thread

Thank you. I'm glad someone could give me a constructive answer.

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“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

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Let's go with the crackpot theory (Excuse me if it has been discussed before).

1. Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love at ToH. Somehow they managed to keep in touch after that.

2. Lyanna was betrothed to Robert , but she didn't love her. (Hey, she did love Rhaegar, I told)

3. Lyanna send a message to Rhaegar telling him where to find her and "steal" her.

This could be just another crazy idea, among many others that anyone can imagine. Let's look for clues. Or hints put in the text to lead us in the quest.

Stealing the girl is the way wildings get like married, or something. The girl is normally willing.

Hoster Tully's comment. It can mean many things, for instance, that he knew L was willingly with Rhaegar, and he find Brandon was a fool, not only for going to KL, but also for not noticing the true.

Cat triggered the five kings war by taking Tyrion. Did L the same by making herself be taken by Rhaegar?

The reason to bring about the theory. It explains why it seems to have been easy to Rhaegar to "abduct" Lyanna.

I like the notion of Lyanna enticing Rhaegar, rather than waiting pasively.

Come on with those objections, har

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Thank you. I'm glad someone could give me a constructive answer.

You're welcome. Now, I need you to do something for me. "Promise me," Fetch, that you won't ask any more R + L questions until you read aGoT.

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I posted this in the Foreshadowing #4 thread a few days ago.

From aSoS:

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. “Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?”

The Knight of the Laughing Tree, Lyanna, did not win the tourney and marry a princess, but the prince, Rhaegar, did win the tourney and married the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

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