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R+L=J v.48


Angalin

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Me too. Blame it on Martin. :lol:

Arya is the best we have to suppose Lyanna's behaviour. Have you ever seen Arya obbey meekly when she was a prissoner? She rather leads, takes her options.

I was just re-reading the passage where the crown prince attacks her escort, and what was her reaction. (I'm taking the use of pronouns from Martin, har)

It was meant to be Arya and Joffrey. What can you say of Lyanna and Rhaegar?

I know, it's extrapolation together with a bit of speculation, and I'd do better with some actual quote, but Martin has decided to veil Lyanna in mistery, it's not my fault, har.

Well, we also see Arya disarm Joffrey too, lol.

If Lyanna disarmed Rhaegar "at swordpoint," he might have had a good reason to have his best KG. :laugh:

On the Wildling theory, the only reason I've not taken that aspect of the story into more consideration is just that I think if Rhaegar were going to impress Lyanna, he wouldn't use tactics the Starks might find hostile, and they didn't much care for the Wildlings and probably consider the story of Bael the Bard an insult because he "got one over" on the Starks.

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Just a minute. Have you considered what it would imply?

Old gods mean nothing to Rhaegar, they are Lyanna's gods.

Should they have exchanged vows before a heart tree, that'd give Lyanna the lead. Rhaegar would be just following.

So, they not only are not mutually exclusive. Having done so would reinforce the idea that it was Lyanna planning, IMHO.

Mmmm. I must think about it.

Perhaps Lyanna was a more active participant in the abduction plot, but then again, it may simply have been Rhaegar's concession to the woman he loves who he is potentially dishonoring by stealing her and breaking a marriage contract Lord Stark made for Lyanna with Robert Baratheon. If Rhaegar wants Lyanna to be happy and not feel like a kept woman who could only give him bastard children, he would want to make a wife of her, even if it's legally untenable according to the customs and practices of the Faith of the Seven. She married herself to him whether he worships the old gods or the new.

Edited to add:

On the Wildling theory, the only reason I've not taken that aspect of the story into more consideration is just that I think if Rhaegar were going to impress Lyanna, he wouldn't use tactics the Starks might find hostile, and they didn't much care for the Wildlings and probably consider the story of Bael the Bard an insult because he "got one over" on the Starks.

I don't know about that. While there is the antipathy between Wildings and Northmen going back into antiquity, Bael of the Bard actually kept the Stark line alive so it became part of the Stark family mythology, although more popular on the Wildling side of the Wall to be sure. :)

I'm not saying the Rhaegar deliberately set out to mimic Wildling marriage practices, but he may have acceded to Northern rituals if/when he married Lyanna, because he wanted her to be comfortable with the situation.

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More clues.

Ygritte tells Jon a story of a wildling "king" who went to WF as a bard and took Stark's only daughter, leaving a blue rose in her stead.

Next year, he went back and let their son as a payment for the girl he had stolen.

And so, all the Starks have the wildling bard as their forebear, they are half-wildlings themselves.

The connections of this history are plenty:

The blue rose, like the one in the Wall in Dany's vision.

Someone takes a Stark girl and gives back her son.

He wasn't actualy stealing, because the girl followed, and he paid a price.

Wildling gods are Starks' gods, and Wildling rules have a say among the Starks.

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Well, we also see Arya disarm Joffrey too, lol.

If Lyanna disarmed Rhaegar "at swordpoint," he might have had a good reason to have his best KG. :laugh:

On the Wildling theory, the only reason I've not taken that aspect of the story into more consideration is just that I think if Rhaegar were going to impress Lyanna, he wouldn't use tactics the Starks might find hostile, and they didn't much care for the Wildlings and probably consider the story of Bael the Bard an insult because he "got one over" on the Starks.

But the chief point of the Wildling theory is precisely that Rhaegar didn't force Lyanna. He "stole" her inthe wildling sense of the word.

In the wildling "marriage", the girl family opposes the suitor to let him prove he's worth the prize he's asking for.

Rhaegar have already done it at ToH. I guess Lyanna called him to avoid Robert.

Btw, I was writing about Bael at the same time, har.

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GRRM covered that. The very next sentence after the one I quoted is:

Barristan could have set out looking for her, with the blood riders. He didn't because he had more important things to do than go to her in person.

Lest we stray off-topic, however, the "what was Barristan up to" question probably needs its own thread.

And what does it change? The blood riders didn't find her, either. No search party found her, and Barristan's mission would have been futile. It all boils down to him not knowing where Dany was, which is not a condition applying to the three KG at ToJ.

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Perhaps Lyanna was a more active participant in the abduction plot, but then again, it may simply have been Rhaegar's concession to the woman he loves who he is potentially dishonoring by stealing her and breaking a marriage contract Lord Stark made for Lyanna with Robert Baratheon. If Rhaegar wants Lyanna to be happy and not feel like a kept woman who could only give him bastard children, he would want to make a wife of her, even if it's legally untenable according to the customs and practices of the Faith of the Seven. She married herself to him whether he worships the old gods or the new.

Edited to add:

I don't know about that. While there is the antipathy between Wildings and Northmen going back into antiquity, Bael of the Bard actually kept the Stark line alive so it became part of the Stark family mythology, although more popular on the Wildling side of the Wall to be sure. :)

I'm not saying the Rhaegar deliberately set out to mimic Wildling marriage practices, but he may have acceded to Northern rituals if/when he married Lyanna, because he wanted her to be comfortable with the situation.

It's a good point. But I guess that she had chosen.

See it form Rhaegar's pov. He was putting a Dornish princess down. Aerys might be a paranoid, but that made him fear a Dornish betrayal.

I don't know what Northeners think about leaving one's wife, but I don't think they favour it. So, I think they were aware their love was ilegal, anyhow. And they didn't mimic Wildling marriage practices deliberately either, it's just a Martin's game.

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I'd like to make clear something about the Wildling theory: Wildlings didn't mean anything to Rhaegar or Lyanna. It's Jon who puts Wildlings into History.

But I'm sure Martin wrote all those parallels with full intent. There are two books left to find out.

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I'd like to make clear something about the Wildling theory: Wildlings didn't mean anything to Rhaegar or Lyanna. It's Jon who puts Wildlings into History.

But I'm sure Martin wrote all those parallels with full intent. There are two books left to find out.

True, but wasn't Rhaegar in touch with Aemon, or am I misremembering?

While the Wildlings as such would be of no concern to him, the information that the old gods do not seem to object to polygamy might have come handy, and someone as knowledgeable as Aemon would certainly know.

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^ Rhaegar surely knew about the Wildlings and the olds gods, even he didn't care much about them.

I don't remember the Northeners who followed the old gods favoured poligamy.

Besides, I see it rather as a divorce. I don't remember to have read anything about divorce or equivalent.

As you can see, I didn't take it this way, I think of it rather as a legitimation "ex-post", once Jon is between Wildlings, or leading them, to better say.

Eta: if this theory proves true, Jon was fully legitimate according to Wildling rules. even though it's doubtfull they'd care.

I can imagine Tormund saying: "Jon boy is sure to be legitimate. I don't give a spitling, har"

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GRRM covered that. The very next sentence after the one I quoted is:

Barristan could have set out looking for her, with the blood riders. He didn't because he had more important things to do than go to her in person.

Lest we stray off-topic, however, the "what was Barristan up to" question probably needs its own thread.

I don't buy Barristan being representative of the White Bull, Oswell, and Arthur. Barristan knew where Viserys was, but decided to swear fealty to Robert. The three at teh tower knew where Viserys was, but claimed that their vow required that they stay and fight; not surrender, and not go to Viserys. Barristan is not an example of those three, you may as well try to draw a parallel with Jaime.
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^ Rhaegar surely knew about the Wildlings and the olds gods, even he didn't care much about them.

I don't remember the Northeners who followed the old gods favoured poligamy.

Besides, I see it rather as a divorce. I don't remember to have read anything about divorce or equivalent.

As you can see, I didn't take it this way, I think of it rather as a legitimation "ex-post", once Jon is between Wildlings, or leading them, to better say.

Eta: if this theory proves true, Jon was fully legitimate according to Wildling rules. even though it's doubtfull they'd care.

I can imagine Tormund saying: "Jon boy is sure to be legitimate. I don't give a spitling, har"

There must be some precedent for divorce, or else what were Renly and the Tyrells planning to do with Cersei in order to make way for Margaery and Robert?

Even Cersei feared being set aside.

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There must be some precedent for divorce, or else what were Renly and the Tyrells planning to do with Cersei in order to make way for Margaery and Robert?

Even Cersei feared being set aside.

I agree, even though it is not addressed specifically. The mentions early on in GOT of putting Cersei aside show there is some method for divorce or at least the end of a marraige. I don't know if Robert would have needed an official reason (like Henry VIII tried with Catherine of Aragon - it was incest and that is why we have no boys - before he gave up and split from the Catholic church - if so then they likely would have gone with the kids aren't his and beheadded the kids and Cersei for treason), but it definitely seems like an option.

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I agree, even though it is not addressed specifically. The mentions early on in GOT of putting Cersei aside show there is some method for divorce or at least the end of a marraige. I don't know if Robert would have needed an official reason (like Henry VIII tried with Catherine of Aragon - it was incest and that is why we have no boys - before he gave up and split from the Catholic church - if so then they likely would have gone with the kids aren't his and beheadded the kids and Cersei for treason), but it definitely seems like an option.

Named Ilyn Payne, har :devil:

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@Sasha Steelsong:

I think thats a good analysis.

General comment

I would just approach with caution conflating what Crastor does compared to the rest of the Wildlings and then to what the Houses of the North are doing compared to the Wildlings, a group they and the NW are hostile to.

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Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark were both at the Tower of Joy at some point. Everyone agrees on this point, it is canon. People differ as to whether Lyanna went willingly, or Rhaegar forced her to go.

In both cases it is generally received that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, as he placed the wreath of love and beauty on her lap during a tournament, I believe it may have been Harrenhal but might be mistaken.

I wish to present an alternative, but probably already pre-considered at least 48,224,001 times prior to my post.

We all know Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy, He was determined to have 3 children to fulfill the Dragon has 3 heads prophecy, and that theirs would be the song of ice and fire.

Rhaegar could have placed the wreath on her lap, after noting an affection for in, and followed up by playing on those affections in the hopes that he could try to have a child with her, as Elia no longer could have children according to her Maester.

Maybe he also stumbled across the Ice and Fire song prophecy relation thing late, and assumed that he was fire, and that Lyanna was Ice - or his children needed to be both Fire and Ice, maybe on mother was Fire (Dorne is pretty hot) and Lyanna was ice (North is pretty cold)

The point im presenting is that Rhaegar did not love Lyanna, he wished to use her as a means to fulfill a prophecy he obsessed over. Might say more about Lyanna that she didn't see it, but maybe she was dragged there ...

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The theory is at least a good reminder that Rhaegar had a capacity for singleminded-ness. The problem is, I suppose, that if his relationship to Lyanna was purely a calculation, it wouldn't change much about theories for reveals in later books...it would serve only to ensure that Rhaegar is remembered as a giant dickbag, and prove Lyanna's short life ended without a single shred of joy from her final months. I will hope this isn't the case.

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