R+L=J v.48

[Alia of the knife]

Don't get me started on Mr. Oxford or Mr.English, those two nitwits been screwing up peoples heads for years. Trying to fill peoples heads with words.

Oh and acid hero'e, that was uncalled for, non of my guys was dropping that shit. Ok maybe Holden but I don't think it was around back then, and Batman, but that was because the Scarecow got him with it.

Honestly doesn't Rheagar come down to what version of him you subscribe too? But really he is not an anti-hero, a tragic figure in the series? Sure you can go down that road. But he is not a central character, a POV character, a main character, he is part of a backstory. To further it, even according to the Oxford English Dictionary an anti herl lacks traditional heroic attributes. Rhaegar does not lack those attributes. Trapped in a prophecy and driven by fate to ones own demise is part of the traggic hero theme. To be a hero you need to also do something heroic, thats why your a hero and not just a protaganist. Rhaegar is not even that, he is part of a backstory. As a child Rhaegar was into books, being into books does not mean you can't be a hero. As a man Rhaegar was Handsome, tall, strong, fast, smart, brave, honerable, dutiful, respectful, loyal, honest etc...

Apollo played a harp as well, Orpheus played the Lyre, Hercules also played the Lyre and was instructed by Linus. Being smart, well read, quick to learn and talented, are actually qualities you will find with most heroes. Sherlock Holmes was educated, brilliant, and played the Violin.

Name your idea of the traditional hero. Throw me a few names. In modern times you have the Everyman hero, the Anti hero, tragic heroes, and the classical hero. Rhaegar is very much a classical build with a tragic ending. But to say he didn't have traditional heroic qualities because he was smart and played an instrument. I don't agree, he seems to be a heroic themed tragic figure.

Remember definitions are always evolving over time, it's no different with the Anti hero. What was Don Quixote? Idealism versus reality, was he a hero, an anti hero, a tragic figure? What he is, is a great example of how the definition of hero changes over time. In Westeros Rheagar was very much considered a hero before Lyanna, and many still consider it a love story about a hero and his lady love. Rhaegar is more often than not stated as being the end all be all. It's not like Tom Jones or Don Quixote, this man was a traditional Westeros hero that's why the crowds cheered for him. Now Jon on the other hand falls far more into the Anti hero catagory. He has broken his vows, been lusty with a woman, is bastard. In that world Jon is the anti hero, those are not the traditional values of Westeros.

Rhaegar was a handsome noble crown prince, with more good virtues than you could shake a stick at. Saying he was an anti hero because he was smart, liked books and played the harp is counter productive to your argument. Crowds came to watch him perform that harp, to listen to him play. The common folk loved him the, the women wanted him and the men wanted to be him. The guy was the super star of Westeros. Being smart and talented at music is not in anyway a negative virtue of a hero. In fact they are like bonus virtues.

"Oh he is great with a lance, looks like a god, rides like the wind, tis noble, and brave, courtious, and kind."

"Yeah well I bet he is stupid and lacks any artistic talent, cause he is a meat head."

"Why no, he is one of the smartest people alive, he loves to read, and people flock from all over Westeros to hear him play his harp."

"Is he bad at anything?"

"No, he is super wonderful."

He sounds like "The Most Interesting Man in the World," (see beer commercial).

No wait, thats Oberyn. :P

[E Diggy]

What's messed up is that Ned can't even tell his wife the truth and jeopardizes his marriage in doing this. Why? Because his own best friend would want to kill Ned's nephew and the child of a woman he claimed to love. Robert was the real bastard.

[E Diggy]

And why does Catelyn forgive Ned, but hold a grudge against Jon? How is anything Jon's fault? He's a good brother (cousin) to the Stark children. You'd think she'd recognize this. Nope. Bitch.

[Swan Targ]

What's messed up is that Ned can't even tell his wife the truth and jeopardizes his marriage in doing this. Why? Because his own best friend would want to kill Ned's nephew and the child of a woman he claimed to love. Robert was the real bastard.

Robert was a narrowminded, ignorant and a brute

I cannot believe someone like that was ruling. He's like someone who should just fight and do nothing else with his brain.

And funny thing is that Ned probably agrees

It's almost like they had no choice, it's either the mad King or Bob

[E Diggy]

Robert was a narrowminded, ignorant and a brute

I cannot believe someone like that was ruling. He's like someone who should just fight and do nothing else with his brain.

And funny thing is that Ned probably agrees

It's almost like they had no choice, it's either the mad King or Bob

Agreed and well said.

[Jon Icefyre]

Robert was a narrowminded, ignorant and a brute

I cannot believe someone like that was ruling. He's like someone who should just fight and do nothing else with his brain.

And funny thing is that Ned probably agrees

It's almost like they had no choice, it's either the mad King or Bob

Ya Ned's thoughts on the matter concerning the sack of KL are pretty interesting, because even though Ned was obviously in support of Robert being king he was anything but okay with Aegon and Rhaenys being murdered, so I wonder what Ned would have thought should have been done with Aegon, Rhaenys, Viserys, and Queen Rhaella had things not gone the way they did?

[E Diggy]

Ya Ned's thoughts on the matter concerning the sack of KL are pretty interesting, because even though Ned was obviously in support of Robert being king he was anything but okay with Aegon and Rhaenys being murdered, so I wonder what Ned would have thought should have been done with Aegon, Rhaenys, Viserys, and Queen Rhaella had things not gone the way they did?

Ned was a conflicted man. I would expect that Ned would have allowed them to leave in exile.

[Swan Targ]

Ned was a conflicted man. I would expect that Ned would have allowed them to leave in exile.

Yes, just like he odered Cersei and her kids to flee before telling Robert of the incest and all that

He didn't want children's blood in his hands, I think that was actually his words

[Old-Growth]

Robert was a narrowminded, ignorant and a brute

The real reason why Lyanna did not want to marry him. "He will not keep to one bed" was the reason she could give Ned, but I believe did not express her real feelings.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'm going to indulge in a shameless plug for a thread I've started dealing with Arthurian analysis of a number of characters, including R+L.

I may have kicked up a few tidbits of interest to some here. It's a work in progress, so I'm eager for feedback

:)

[Alia of the knife]

I'm going to indulge in a shameless plug for a thread I've started dealing with Arthurian analysis of a number of characters, including R+L.

I may have kicked up a few tidbits of interest to some here. It's a work in progress, so I'm eager for feedback

:)

I'm a fan of "shameless plugs," so I'm happy to read your thread. :bowdown:

[UVA]

UVA:I have offered one scenario about how it will happen above. Care to answer? (Hint: Dany isn't going to give Jon a choice in the matter.)

OK you wrote:

Once Dany knows that she has a choice between two young men either of whom, it will now appear, might be Rhaegar's son, she will lean towards Jon despite the obvious obstacle posed by his oath to the night's watch. That is the point about the mummer's dragon read either way: either Aegon is a cloth dragon on poles (Dany's known current understanding of the term) or he is Varys' creature and as such highly suspect both from Quaithe's warning and from Ser Barristan's point to her about Varys being part of what caused her father's rule to go wrong.

Finally either that was a miscarriage out in the Dothraki sea or Marwyn learned enough from Mirri Maz Duur in exchange for teaching her the healing of the citadel to put right what Mirri marred, or it will prove a combination of both.

The upshot is that the restoration of her House and dynasty will now appear likely, and I think that she will be willing to push Jon very hard indeed to bring that about. The relationship is like to prove contentious, but I think that the other part of that vision about the flower emanating a sweetness means that Dany at least will feel that her choice was the right one. Or perhaps she will take a liking to the "Lord's Kiss"

Am I right to say that Dany will, with the help of some key players: 1) suss out the meaning of her blue rose vision and connect it to Jon; and 2) interpret that Aegon is the mummer's dragon, and this justifies her decision to go after Jon as a mate? Add to this the discovery of her new-found fertility that will compel her to force Jon to save House Targaryen (via his sperm) from obsolescence?

If this is a correct read of what you're saying, I can be right there with you until the idea about Dany forcing Jon to be her mate. First, I can't imagine under what circumstances Dany will ensnare Jon. Seduction seems unlikely because it's not unreasonable to think that their first encounters will be very contentious. Add to this my belief that Jon will be appalled by many aspects of Dany's personality, as well as be quite at odds with her style of leadership. I see it akin to what he feels towards Mel at the Wall: "I'm not sticking my hand in that cage."-kind of ethos. But even so, and I'm mean this kindly, your scenario seems to set up a romantic comedy/Taming of the Shrew play, where Jon and Dany bicker and go head-to-head for a bit but ultimately recognize a mutual affection and all ends well.

There are fundamental connections to be drawn between the two characters, I'm not sold on the idea that they end up as lovers/baby-makers/co-dragon riders. If there is any bond it will be based on the bittersweet recognition that they are the last members of a faded dynasty that is unlikely to return to its former power (Dany has to realize this at some point). Considering Jon's development, no act of desperation would compel him to sleep with her in order to preserve their House.

I have come to the conclusion that Theon is seeing what is in his tortured imagination

Wonderful analysis LadyGwyn of a loaded passage. I agree that Theon's dream seems more integrated into his story than to other features eluded to in the sequence. But I wonder if the Lyanna reference is wholly separate from Theon's arc.

First, what do you think of the significance, and perhaps a nod from Martin to the reader who has picked up on R+L=J, of connecting Lyanna -- yet again -- with the imagery of a crown of blue winter roses? Or perhaps what a woman's clothes look like just after giving birth? It seems very deliberate to associate these particular images with Lyanna.

Also, Theon/Reek seems to have morphed into an unlikely chronicler of Winterfell in ADWD. Lady Dustin chooses him as her escort into the Winterfell crypts: a potential source of information on the mysterious background of the Starks, their involvement in the history of the Wall and the Long Night. the Others, and R+L=J. The crypts resonate a power and mystique that isn't lost on Theon or Dustin. And it's Theon (of all people) who Dustin reveals her thoughts on some of the key events and players of the series' backstory, Lyanna being one of them.

On this basis I think Theon may have more contextual relation to Lyanna than any other character save for Ned and Robert. There are thoughts and references by a handful of characters: Cersei notes the 'wolf girl'. Kevan, while less derogatory in his inner dialogue, also thinks about the 'northern girl'. There's also Harwin and Roose commenting on Lyanna's exceptionalism as an equestrian. Barristan thinks about Rhaegar's love for Lyanna. Meera does something similar in her re-telling of the KOTLT, and that the crowning of the wolf maid was "a much a sadder tale."

Considering these one-time references, Theon appears to more associated than other characters with Lyanna's story. That said, this may just be the result of his role as the sole POV at Winterfell in ADWD and not an essential component of his arc wrt Lyanna and her backstory.

[Swan Targ]

You guys think Jon's parentage will be revealed in TWoW or ADoS?

I think if it's gonna be revealed in the last book, things might get a bit rushed

[Jon Icefyre]

OK you wrote:

Am I right to say that Dany will, with the help of some key players: 1) suss out the meaning of her blue rose vision and connect it to Jon; and 2) interpret that Aegon is the mummer's dragon, and this justifies her decision to go after Jon as a mate? Add to this the discovery of her new-found fertility that will compel her to force Jon to save House Targaryen (via his sperm) from obsolescence?

If this is a correct read of what you're saying, I can be right there with you until the idea about Dany forcing Jon to be her mate. First, I can't imagine under what circumstances Dany will ensnare Jon. Seduction seems unlikely because it's not unreasonable to think that their first encounters will be very contentious. Add to this my belief that Jon will be appalled by many aspects of Dany's personality, as well as be quite at odds with her style of leadership. I see it akin to what he feels towards Mel at the Wall: "I'm not sticking my hand in that cage."-kind of ethos. But even so, and I'm mean this kindly, your scenario seems to set up a romantic comedy/Taming of the Shrew play, where Jon and Dany bicker and go head-to-head for a bit but ultimately recognize a mutual affection and all ends well.

There are fundamental connections to be drawn between the two characters, I'm not sold on the idea that they end up as lovers/baby-makers/co-dragon riders. If there is any bond it will be based on the bittersweet recognition that they are the last members of a faded dynasty that is unlikely to return to its former power (Dany has to realize this at some point). Considering Jon's development, no act of desperation would compel him to sleep with her in order to preserve their House.

There's also the whole Dany would be Jon's aunt thing....Ya I don't really see Jon as someone who would be even remotely okay with indulging in incestrial activities... :ack:

[UVA]

There's also the whole Dany would be Jon's aunt thing....Ya I don't really see Jon as someone who would be even remotely okay with indulging in incestrial activities... :ack:

I know, seriously and this was implicit in my post. I can't imagine under any scenario that Jon would be OK with banging Dany, incest being the chief obstacle for him.