R+L=J v.48

[Jon's Queen Consort]

there's evidence(Dany, Barristan and that app) in books he loved her. He was probably obsessed with her, she wasn't typical highborn lady :-)

Dany couldn't know, Barristan couldn't know either (how could he knew when Rhaegar was a coward and hiding for a year away?) I hadn't noticed that the app says that he loved her. Anyhow, even if he felt something for her that wasn't love. When someone love someone else he/she want the other to be safe. How she could be safe and happy? If he first had overthrow his father and then he claimed her. This way ther father and brother wouldn't be dead and also she wouldn't had to gave birth in the middle of nowhere without proper help.

[Barty]

If he loved Lyanna - why didn't he ask for her hand in marriage?? He dishonored Lyanna and her entire family when he ran off with her.

If I was in Brandon's position I would have done the same thing he did.

[yolkboy]

Consecuently, he declares before everybody crowning Lyanna, and here we link with the Wildling theory.

What's 'the Wildling theory'?

[smithy1259]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but this is my first time on this forum. I was rereading a Clash of Kings when I noticed that during the House of the Undying chapter, Daenerys sees a vision of a blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice. This wall is obviously the Wall, so the question is what does the rose represent? I believe it represents Jon Snow Lyanna Starks son. The Blue winter rose was Lyanna Stark's favourite flower. If R+L=J is true this points to Jon Snow being Lyanna's son. The sweet smell coming from the flower could represent that Jon is the walls only hope.

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[smithy1259]

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[Ygrain]

Rhaegar & Lyanna deserved to die. The result of their actions resulted in the deaths of Brandon, Rickard, Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent, Aerys, Lewlyn Martell, Jon Darry, Theo Wull, William Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Princess Rhaenys, Elia Martell, and thousands of soldiers from every part of the 7K, thousands of smallfolk in the riverlands & crownlands.

Not possessing a crystal sphere, they had no way of knowing this would happen. Note please that Rickard is not calling banners over the supposed abduction, nor over his son's imprisonment - he acts as a loyal, law-abiding subject. The banner-raising occurs only after Aerys goes on head-demanding spree and Jon Arryn defies the order and rebels.

You may want to look at the historical parallel which probably inspired GRRM - the abduction of very young Isabela of Angouleme, of a powerful noble family and betrothed to another, by John Lackland, king of England (married but his wife was barren). No fighting occurs until John defies an order from the King of France (at that time, his hypothetical sovereign) to return Isabela - who, by the way, becomes his wife and the mother of his heir, despite John losing and paying heavy casualties..

Ι believe that he was attracted to her but I don't think that he loved her. If you love someone you want him/her to be happy and safe.

He putted the 3KG to protect the third dragon head not her. If he wanted to protect her he wouldn't have putted in danger in the first place. So no I don't believe that he loved her

Dany couldn't know, Barristan couldn't know either (how could he knew when Rhaegar was a coward and hiding for a year away?) I hadn't noticed that the app says that he loved her. Anyhow, even if he felt something for her that wasn't love. When someone love someone else he/she want the other to be safe. How she could be safe and happy? If he first had overthrow his father and then he claimed her. This way ther father and brother wouldn't be dead and also she wouldn't had to gave birth in the middle of nowhere without proper help.

Er... you never made a mistake that grieved/harmed those who love you? Would you say that making such a mistake somehow disqualifies your love for them?

And, sorry but you have no idea whether Lyanna had any help or not, or whether she would have fared any better with the assistance of a dozen maesters. If she contracted infection and died of puerperal fever, there was no help without ATBs, and maesters do not possess these. Note how Ned was developing infection in his broken leg: no cure for that.

As for overthrowing Aerys and claiming Lyanna afterwards - if you want to plan a coup, you can't do this overnight, and she might be married to Robert meanwhile, which I am sure neither of them wanted. With all the information we do not know yet, time may have been a factor.

If he truly loved her, he would never left her, espescially to go and cross swords/hammers with Robert.

His dynasty, his personal safety and in extension Lyanna's, as well, was at stake, so what was he supposed to do?

If he loved Lyanna - why didn't he ask for her hand in marriage?? He dishonored Lyanna and her entire family when he ran off with her.

If I was in Brandon's position I would have done the same thing he did.

And if Rickard refused? And/or Aerys forbade it? Then he would be worse off than before as everyone would be alerted to his intention.

Well, I hope that you would at least bother to check whether the supposed culprit is at home. Plus, were I a supposedly kidnapped sister, I'd much prefer if my vigilante brother at least yelled "release her at once", instead of going "aaaargh, I kill you".

[finger]

Mormonts Raven started using the word King after Mormont told Jon Aemons story and used the word King a few times. I have never been a big fan of the Raven saying Jon is King as it would also mean Jon is Corn.

Also Jon would not be King if the Targs still ruled. That would of meant the Targs won. So Rhaegar would be King followed by Aegon, followed by Vis and every other legit heir. If someone can produce a Septon of the 7, which is the religion practiced in the south and by the crown, then you have an argument. But the Kings guards was acting on orders from Rhaegar and Jon was most likely moved to Starfall for his own protection and they stayed to protect the very ill Lyanna as ordered. Moving him to Starfall via Wylla would of been the best way to hide his identity, and disassociating themselves from Jon would of protected him from Robert. Which is why Wylla and the Daynes lie about Jons mother being Wylla. The hid Jon.

Remember when Brandon was going to Marry Cat? It was going to be at Riverrun in a sept which is where Ned married her. Why? Because that is their religious faith, later she took part in the northern Custom in front of a tree. The Crown does not prey to trees and does not follow that religion which is why they cut the Wierwoods down and KL has no heart tree.

Just for fun, some crazy crackpot.

This adds to the notion that relation between Starks and Daynes were very good. You haven't heard what was of Lyanna after ToJ: she went with poor dishonoured Ashara to enjoy the mild climate of Starfall, given that winter was coming. :laugh: From there, Lyanna found it easy to plan her stealing with Rhaegar :lol:

One day she said "I've never been to Kl, gonna pay it a visit". At the same time, Rhaegar set out himself, but he rode faster. They met about the TOJ :rofl:

And the funniest; it might work :lmao:

[Corvo Attano]

His dynasty, his personal safety and in extension Lyanna's, as well, was at stake, so what was he supposed to do?

Surely Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne would have stood a better chance against Robert..

[finger]

What's 'the Wildling theory'?

It's explained above in the thread, but in a nutshell.

Lyanna called Rhaegar to save her from Robert. He lets Elia back, and goes to Lyanna. The supposed "abduction" has everything it's needed for a Wildling "stealing". They are a legal couple according to Wildling rules.

And as the story goes, this couple's son heads the Wildlings.

This one is serious, there are hints to support it.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Surely Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne would have stood a better chance against Robert..

He had three Kingsguard, including Barristan Selmy, with him. It didn't work out though.

[Tini]

If he loved Lyanna - why didn't he ask for her hand in marriage?? He dishonored Lyanna and her entire family when he ran off with her.

If I was in Brandon's position I would have done the same thing he did.

He was already married, remember? His wife had given him heirs, so he couldn't simply set her aside.

And don't start with polygamy among Targaryens. Elia of Dorne was no Targaryen, and the Martells would have objected - probably with Rhaegar and Elia's marriage treaty to back them up. The Starks would have objected. And Aerys might have objected because he didn't want trouble with Starks and Martells, or the succession. Aerys' objection would have carried the greatest weight, as Prince Rhaegar would probably have needed his father's permission to marry, the permission of his House.

Rhaegar once believed himself to be Azor Ahai, then realized he was wrong. He thought Aegon's would be the song of Ice and Fire - but it is quite possible that he reconsidered that as well upon meeting Lyanna Stark. He wanted another child, and it seemed that Elia could not give him one - and he may have realized that Elia could not gift their children with the Song of Ice. The Martells and Targaryens are not associated with Ice, the Starks are.

I don't believe Rhaegar really loved Lyanna, but I can see how his obsession with prophesy might have led to an obsession with Lyanna. And I can see how people around him might mistake that obsession for love.

I think Lyanna may have been part of Rhaegar's plan to depose of his father.

Rickard Stark might not have agreed to a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, especially not if the match lacked King Aerys' blessing. Considering that there were plans in place to marry Lyanna to Robert Baratheon, his rejection was practically guaranteed. But he would have contacted Aerys in any case about the proposal. If Rhaegar was acting behind his father's back, he could not ask for Lyanna.

I think Rhaegar believed that Rickard would no longer refuse him once there was a child involved, and that the Starks would support him against Aerys. He may have also believed that the Martells would continue to support him for Elia's and Aegon's sakes. He might have felt strong enough to get rid of his father with Dorne, the North, and the prophesy on his side, then.

He did not expect Brandon's intervention, followed by Brandon and Rickard Starks' deaths. He could no longer hope for a Stark alliance, and he couldn't afford to wait for a child to be born, prophesy or not. He had to support his father's cause by quelling the rebellion.

[Barty]

And if Rickard refused? And/or Aerys forbade it? Then he would be worse off than before as everyone would be alerted to his intention.

Well, I hope that you would at least bother to check whether the supposed culprit is at home. Plus, were I a supposedly kidnapped sister, I'd much prefer if my vigilante brother at least yelled "release her at once", instead of going "aaaargh, I kill you".

So he did not ask for her hand in marriage because Rickard might have refused? Please explain then why does anybody ever ask anybody else for their hand? The possibility of refusal is present in every proposal but that does not mean you run away with the girl - especially when running away would mean the realm thinks you are a rapist and you dishonor the girl's name and family.

As for Brandon - he did not think of this as a kidnapping - he thought of it as a rape. Who wouldn't want to kill his sister's rapist?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Er... you never made a mistake that grieved/harmed those who love you? Would you say that making such a mistake somehow disqualifies your love for them?

No. I have never made a mistake that have harmed my loved ones. Make them sad for a moment yes, losing their lives or be physically harmed no. And yes if your (Rhaegar’s your) irresponsible decisions cost the lives of people you claim to love then you don’t love them

As for overthrowing Aerys and claiming Lyanna afterwards - if you want to plan a coup, you can't do this overnight, and she might be married to Robert meanwhile, which I am sure neither of them wanted. With all the information we do not know yet, time may have been a factor.

No. Discuss your plan to marry her with her family, in order they delay the wedding, overthrow your father and then marry her.

[Barty]

He was already married, remember? His wife had given him heirs, so he couldn't simply set her aside.

And don't start with polygamy among Targaryens. Elia of Dorne was no Targaryen, and the Martells would have objected - probably with Rhaegar and Elia's marriage treaty to back them up. The Starks would have objected. And Aerys might have objected because he didn't want trouble with Starks and Martells, or the succession. Aerys' objection would have carried the greatest weight, as Prince Rhaegar would probably have needed his father's permission to marry, the permission of his House.

Rhaegar once believed himself to be Azor Ahai, then realized he was wrong. He thought Aegon's would be the song of Ice and Fire - but it is quite possible that he reconsidered that as well upon meeting Lyanna Stark. He wanted another child, and it seemed that Elia could not give him one - and he may have realized that Elia could not gift their children with the Song of Ice. The Martells and Targaryens are not associated with Ice, the Starks are.

I don't believe Rhaegar really loved Lyanna, but I can see how his obsession with prophesy might have led to an obsession with Lyanna. And I can see how people around him might mistake that obsession for love.

I think Lyanna may have been part of Rhaegar's plan to depose of his father.

Rickard Stark might not have agreed to a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, especially not if the match lacked King Aerys' blessing. Considering that there were plans in place to marry Lyanna to Robert Baratheon, his rejection was practically guaranteed. But he would have contacted Aerys in any case about the proposal. If Rhaegar was acting behind his father's back, he could not ask for Lyanna.

I think Rhaegar believed that Rickard would no longer refuse him once there was a child involved, and that the Starks would support him against Aerys. He may have also believed that the Martells would continue to support him for Elia's and Aegon's sakes. He might have felt strong enough to get rid of his father with Dorne, the North, and the prophesy on his side, then.

He did not expect Brandon's intervention, followed by Brandon and Rickard Starks' deaths. He could no longer hope for a Stark alliance, and he couldn't afford to wait for a child to be born, prophesy or not. He had to support his father's cause by quelling the rebellion.

The actions you describe are those of a mad man. His method of getting Rickard's permission was to run away with his daughter and get her pregnant hence making her a useless match for anybody else?? I would have taken of the head of anybody who did that to my daughter - child or no child.

He did not expect her brother to come looking for him after rumours spread that he is raping Lyanna? Rhaegar seems madder than the mad king.

[Ygrain]

So he did not ask for her hand in marriage because Rickard might have refused? Please explain then why does anybody ever ask anybody else for their hand? The possibility of refusal is present in every proposal but that does not mean you run away with the girl - especially when running away would mean the realm thinks you are a rapist and you dishonor the girl's name and family.

As for Brandon - he did not think of this as a kidnapping - he thought of it as a rape. Who wouldn't want to kill his sister's rapist?

Normally, one doesn't have a paranoid king and his spymaster behind his back, watching his every move. Rickard's refusal would have complicated things on Lyanna's end but Aerys' disapproval would have been disastrous.

I am very curious how you know what Brandon thought, as we don't have any PoV of his and his reaction would be consistent with dishonour by consensual sex, as well.

No. I have never made a mistake that have harmed my loved ones. Make them sad for a moment yes, losing their lives or be physically harmed no. And yes if your (Rhaegar’s your) irresponsible decisions cost the lives of people you claim to love then you don’t love them

Then I sincerely hope that you will never find yourself in a situation that your action would backlash in a way you didn't anticipate.

BTW, does this mean that Sansa didn't love Ned? Then why was she so depressed over his death? Or that Robb didn't love Catelyn, because she ended up with her throat slit? They both made a fatal mistake but I don't think that it somehow undermines their love for their parents.

No. Discuss your plan to marry her with her family, in order they delay the wedding, overthrow your father and then marry her.

If Rhaegar starts discussing it and word of it gets to Aerys, who, given his paranoia, sees it as an attempt to undermine his authority and forbids it, then Rhaegar is basically screwed.

[Ygrain]

The actions you describe are those of a mad man. His method of getting Rickard's permission was to run away with his daughter and get her pregnant hence making her a useless match for anybody else?? I would have taken of the head of anybody who did that to my daughter - child or no child.

He did not expect her brother to come looking for him after rumours spread that he is raping Lyanna? Rhaegar seems madder than the mad king.

/cough/ Two of my schoolmates, one from the basic school, the other from university, got themselves pregnant to make their parents accept their partners. It's a very old method, because asking forgiveness is easier than asking permission.

As for Brandon, as I wrote above, to go after somebody means that you should at least check if they are at home, before you come committing treason by threatening their life. Like it or not, Rhaegar was a Targaryen Crown Prince, and they were not equal before law. It is rather likely that by disappearing and going incommunicado, Rhaegar actually wanted to pervent such rash actions, as it probably never occured to him that someone might be so stupid and challenge him in his absence,

[King Zee]

pffff.

Rhaegar was a married man who was having an affair with a teenage girl.

wrap what whatever romance and prophecy you want around it , that's what it was.

and their elopement led directly to war between their famlies because neither R nor L was brave enough to stand in front of thier fathers and face their decision.

[King Zee]

/cough/ Two of my schoolmates, one from the basic school, the other from university, got themselves pregnant to make their parents accept their partners. It's a very old method, because asking forgiveness is easier than asking permission.

As for Brandon, as I wrote above, to go after somebody means that you should at least check if they are at home, before you come committing treason by threatening their life. Like it or not, Rhaegar was a Targaryen Crown Prince, and they were not equal before law. It is rather likely that by disappearing and going incommunicado, Rhaegar actually wanted to pervent such rash actions, as it probably never occured to him that someone might be so stupid and challenge him in his absence,

Rhaeagar wasnt a university student, he was a Crown prince. He needed to show better judgement.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Rhaeagar wasnt a university student, he was a Crown prince. He needed to show better judgement.

That's a good argument against monarchy. But it doesn't bear any meaning for the story.

[Buried Treasure]

Problem is, the wildlings don't have laws, they just have customs. Those customs can't be just transposed into the 7K were there actually are laws on marriage. Not that Rhaegar or Lyanna would have even known wildling customs anyway. And north or south of the Wall, I believe a true marriage entails vows spoken before the gods, though which gods does not seem to matter so much.

The best reason for thinking Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a tree is that if they married, it was done secretly. Marriage by the Faith would have required a septon. Targaryen polygamy has to be the loophole by which the marriage would be valid under the laws of the 7K. Unless Elia had secretly sworn herself to the Faith I don't think Rhaegar and Elia had divorced, that seems possible only when one party of the marriage joins orders.

I do have to wonder, if R+L fell in love at Harrenhal and decided not to act on it then, why did the abduction happen when it did? Even Elia being unable to give more children wasn't news that required a hasty response. Rheagar's actions seem emotional and unplanned to me. If he took Lyanna because he had done the maths and realised he was a babe short he could still have been more considerate to the wife he at least had fondness for. From the R+E naming Aegon vision it seems Elia knew of the prophecy, could Rhaegar not have asked her to chose holy orders so he could father the third child after a conventional marriage? Because I think Rhaegar acted without thinking I`m going to suggest that the speculated Ashara/Elia baby switch did happen and that Rhaegar discovered it and, feeling betrayed, responded with uncharacteristic rashness.