A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up Part 2

[J. Stargaryen]

He laughed . . . and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him.

Nice. Where is that from? ASoS, Sansa IV (Joffrey and Margaery's wedding celebration)

Well there you go.

ETA: I gotta say the drunk/madman and laughing thing, if it is deliberate, is clever as hell. When it's spelled out and put side by side like that, it's also compelling to the point where you'd have to be in deep damn denial not to admit it.

:agree:

[Florina Laufeyson]

He laughed . . . and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him.

Jumpin R'hllor on rollerskates.

Im lovin' this shit, guys. Between the Black Bastard bit from the "bad cat" and this, my mind is all wiggy.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Nice. Where is that from? ASoS, Sansa IV (Joffrey and Margaery's wedding celebration)

Thanks, I've been trying to find it.

(Broadly speaking, if you're quoting from the books, it's super helpful to cite it so other people can corroborate it easily without going on a fishing expedition.)

[Fire Eater]

"No one sees her ladyship unless the Longinch gives his leave. You come with me. Your stableboy can stay with the horses."

"I'm a squire not a stableboy," Egg insisted. "Are you blind, or only stupid?"

-TSS

She might mistake him [Jon] for a stableboy and hand him the reins of her horse.

-ADwD Jon IX

Another nice clue with help from Dunk and Egg, from a scene when Egg is just about to meet the Red Widow and Jon is about to meet Selyse.

[J. Stargaryen]

It's probably been brought up before, but I don't recall seeing it so: Jon (the king) is mentored and counseled by Qhorin halfhand.

ETA:

"No one sees her ladyship unless the Longinch gives his leave. You come with me. Your stableboy can stay with the horses."

"I'm a squire not a stableboy," Egg insisted. "Are you blind, or only stupid?"

She might mistake him [Jon] for a stableboy and hand him the reins of her horse.

Another nice clue with help from Dunk and Egg, from a scene when Egg is just about to meet the Red Widow and Jon is about to meet Selyse.

Another nice catch, but I'm going to echo Apple's post about citing quotes.

[Nic.]

I'm suprised no one mentions the fact that Jon was born from a marriage-less couple meaning he will be STILL a bastard and thus not getting the throne unless legitimized.. Maybe the backstory on the Blackfyres in D&E can come into play with Jon..?

considering there were three kingsguard there including its best man, i think it's pretty obvious they were protecting the birth of a royal prince.

still find it funny that people say GRMM doesn't follow the common thropes because he's killed off main characters. It's not like the main characters were the father and mother figure of who the story is about the Stark Children. As for Robb he didn't even have a POV making him basically a side character in the story.

[Jessica Rogers]

So Ser Gerold Hightower just left the rightful King of Westeros alone on Dragonstone without any Kingsguard to protect what? You say this isn't a product of R+L. So what were they protecting? A fevered up young girl who was close to death?

How so? Jon would be the rightful Targ King and because you think it's ridiculous, because you probably see it as cliche(?), and so it doesn't happen? Would it still be ridiculous if GRRM wrote in a good way and not be just "bad writing".

I don't even think Jon may be awakened yet when Aegon's Conquest is known through out Westeros. Or possibly Jon hears about the Dance and keeps quiet because it would be dumb to say "Hey! I'm Rhaegar's long lost son. This puts one of you behind me in succession. No hard feelings, I'm sure we can work together".

And why do you think Dany would kill her only remaining family who is the only possible way to continue the Targaryen line?

Again I don't think Jon will be awake when Dany lands, or he might not know his true parentage yet.

Dany will see Aegon as the mummer's dragon when she lands and then start the Second Dance of the Dragons.

What if Jon is declared King before Rickon turns up? Jon will most likely become protector of Rickon while he's young.

Why do you insist that there can't be something in Lyanna's tomb about R+L? It would make sense for there to be something in her tomb as Jon has dreams of not wanting to go down to the crypts, as he thinks doesn't belong there.

If you looked up the theory of Torrhen's Crown then you would know that the reason Rhaegar gave Lyanna the Crown was because he loved her, and last time it was seen or heard a out was when Torrhen gave it to Aegon the Conqueror. Cat also says, thinking about it, "no man could say what he (Aegon) done with" but a woman could. Rhaegar could have gotten the Crown from the Red Keep and given it to Lya to show his love for her and because their child would be half Northern.

Well I don't know about you, but sometimes characters get what they want, even of it is difficult. Jon may get the Throne in the end. It might not be "a walk in the park" for him but he may get it in the end. And by the time Jon enters The Game, if he does, Sansa will have dealt with LF and Varys will have probably been killed, maybe by Dany.

And maybe there's something else to it. There's one where the Kings in the North are looking down from their stone thrones, which could mean something else, they may know where Jon comes from.

Ned would keep things Lyanna had in her tomb that prove R+L because she loved Rhaegar and she may have told Ned she wanted to be buried with them, or he buried them with her because he knew she loved Rhaegar and would have wanted to be buried with the things. And he could have also put them in there because he was going to tell Jon the truth and wanted to have something that would prove it to Jon.

I believe that Hightower was at the wrong place at the right time, because he was sent after Rhaegar by the MK. I don't think he was hanging around the ToJ like whent and Dayne, who I firmly believe had already picked Rhaegar's side and would've stayed with Lyanna no matter what. Now, I know you will quote what he tells Ned but I think if seven men rode up on horses with the intent to kill the two KG that were their leader Hightower would hardly leave them there to die.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

These two things from Jon's final ADWD chapter might be a stretch but what the hell?

When Jon has Mully escort Clydas back to his chambers he says "The night is dark and the paths will be slippery with snow." Is this a hint that Jon is AAR? It echoes the phrase "The night is dark and full of terrors." Jon Snow is the path out of the long night 2.0?

Then on the next page he goes to the Shieldhall. He lists many of the sigils from the shields that used to hang in there. Including wolves and dragons. Is it a survey of the houses he will rule over someday?

The Shieldhall has been abandoned for years. Deprived of its former nobility. Just as Jon has been abandoned by his parents and deprived of the nobility he would have if both of them (or at least Rhaegar) had lived.

The hall itself

Quote

...left much to be desired - it was dark, dirty, drafty, and hard to heat in winter, its cellars infested with rats, its massive wooden rafter worm eaten and festooned with cobwebs... fewer than a dozen shields remained, sad grey things with faded paint and long cracks in the wood. But fresh torches burned in the iron sconces along the walls...

At first glance Jon is nothing special. He is a bastard, sent to live out his days freezing his ass off in Night's Watch obscurity. Yet, he is as the thread title says he is a hidden king. A fresh torch. The Shieldhall is where he comes out publicly as a king rather a Night's Watch commander.

Quote

"I ride to Winterfell alone, unless..." Jon paused. "...is there any man here who will come stand with me?"

The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls

Hopefully that post wasn't too incoherent. It's getting late!

ETA: There is fire and blood in this chapter representing his hidden Targ identity. The fire is the fresh torches in the Shieldhall. Afterwards, Jon goes outside to find Wun Wun with the corpse of Patrek. The large amount of blood is mentioned many times. Including "the snow beneath it turning red."

[Jô Maltese]

Awesome finds Fire Eater :bowdown:

[Muggle]

"You'll find someone," Jon promised her. "King's Landing is a true city, a thousand times the size of Winterfell. Until you find a partner, watch how they fight in the yard. Run, and ride, make yourself strong. And whatever you do . . . "
Arya knew what was coming next. They said it together.
" . . . don't . . . tell . . . Sansa!"
Jon messed up her hair. "I will miss you, little sister."
Suddenly she looked like she was going to cry. "I wish you were coming with us."
"Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?"

This is from Jon and Arya in GOT,

Many take this as Arya ending up at castle black. But the last line. Arya says. I wish you were coming with us. Then Jon replies. Who knows? diff roads sometimes lead to the same castle.

I always took this as Jon will end up at Kings Landing

[Fire Eater]

a king must be bold

-ASoS Tyrion VI

You're [Jon] bold enough to be a Stark

-ASoS Jon XI

You have a bold tongue in the king's solar boy [Jon]

-ADwD Jon IV

Jon that quality of a king down

[Jô Maltese]

I started a new thread that might add to the 'adding it all up'?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102197-the-ash-the-chestnut-and-the-oak/

[Fire Eater]

[Val] She was not wrong. The trick was telling one from the other, parting the sheep from the goats.

-ADwD Jon V

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

-Matthew 25:31-32

More Jesus references for Jon, pointing to him as the messainic figure of ASOIAF.

[Fire Eater]

A stone turned under her foot. She [Dany] stumbled to one knee and cried out in pain

Stones are used for hiding things, and a stone turning could point to a secret being revealed. The phrase "under one's foot" means someone is near you in a way that is difficult and prevents you from doing what you want to do. The stone turned causes to Dany to go to one knee, the action one performs to acknowledge fealty to a king. I think this foreshadows the reveal of R+L=J to Dany. Jon is near her as nephew by Rhaegar, which prevents her from doing what she wants to do, sit the IT and rule as Queen. Going to one knee could foreshadow her kneeling to Jon in submission, acknowledging him as king. Her crying out in pain is likely a clue to her reaction to the event.

[The guy from the Vale]

Combine that with the dragons being woken from stone and the stone beast breathing shadow fire, and it gets even stronger ;)

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

[Val] She was not wrong. The trick was telling one from the other, parting the sheep from the goats.

-ADwD Jon V

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

-Matthew 25:31-32

More Jesus references for Jon, pointing to him as the messainic figure of ASOIAF.

Just saw this while re-reading aCoK. Not sure if relevant here really though.

From when the NW brothers are discussing what they should do against Mance while on the Fist, uneasy before Qhorin's arrival:

"There are goats among these sheep, Thoren," warned Jarman Buckwell. "Aye, and maybe a few lions. Rattleshirt, Harma the Dogshead, Alfyn Crowkiller . . ."

Jon will have these goats and sheep. And maybe a lion named Jaime too I can hope.

[Torrhen Blackwood]

"You'll find someone," Jon promised her. "King's Landing is a true city, a thousand times the size of Winterfell. Until you find a partner, watch how they fight in the yard. Run, and ride, make yourself strong. And whatever you do . . . "

Arya knew what was coming next. They said it together.

" . . . don't . . . tell . . . Sansa!"

Jon messed up her hair. "I will miss you, little sister."

Suddenly she looked like she was going to cry. "I wish you were coming with us."

"Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?"

This is from Jon and Arya in GOT,

Many take this as Arya ending up at castle black. But the last line. Arya says. I wish you were coming with us. Then Jon replies. Who knows? diff roads sometimes lead to the same castle.

I always took this as Jon will end up at Kings Landing

I have yet to do a re-read of AGOT, but I'll be damned if that bit of dialogue didn't put a knot in my throat. I truly miss the Jon & Arya scenes. I hope we will be lucky enough to read another one.

As far as Jon's path to a throne, whether it be the IT or KiTN, I'm not quite sure he'll gain either. He is my favorite character and I hope he gains one of those titles but I see him being a martyr for the Wall against the Others. But I hope he gets a sliver of happiness; maybe with Val or Asha?

[J. Stargaryen]

The sound of laughter made Viserys lift his eyes. “Khal Drogo,” he said thickly, his voice almost polite. “I’m here for the feast.” He staggered away from Ser Jorah, making to join the three khals on the high bench.

Khal Drogo rose, spat out a dozen words in Dothraki, faster than Dany could understand, and pointed. “Khal Drogo says your place is not on the high bench,” Ser Jorah translated for her brother. “Khal Drogo says your place is there.”

Viserys glanced where the khal was pointing. At the back of the long hall, in a corner by the wall, deep in shadow so better men would not need to look on them, sat the lowest of the low; raw unblooded boys, old men with clouded eyes and stiff joints, the dim-witted and the maimed. Far from the meat, and farther from honor. “That is no place for a king,” her brother declared.

- AGoT, Daenerys V

Recall where Jon was seated during the feast at Winterfell in Robert's honor.

A singer was playing the high harp and reciting a ballad, but down at this end of the hall his voice could scarcely be heard above the roar of the fire, the clangor of pewter plates and cups, and the low mutter of a hundred drunken conversations.

[...]

Ghost ripped into it in savage silence. His brothers and sisters had not been permitted to bring their wolves to the banquet, but there were more curs than Jon could count at this end of the hall, and no one had said a word about his pup.

[...]

“Don’t you usually eat at table with your brothers?”

“Most times,” Jon answered in a flat voice. “But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them.”

“I see.” His uncle glanced over his shoulder at the raised table at the far end of the hall. “My brother does not seem very festive tonight.”

- AGoT, Jon I

There are a few more parallels as well. Big feasts with important guests (Robert, etc., Khals Jommo and Ogo) in a lord/khal's hall.

• Jon and Viserys both had too much to drink.
• They both also cry;
• get laughed at;
• cause a scene;
• which in turn silences the previously loud feast.
• Oh, and they both "wrenched free" from someone's grasp.

A singer was playing the high harp and reciting a ballad, but down at this end of the hall his voice could scarcely be heard above the roar of the fire, the clangor of pewter plates and cups, and the low mutter of a hundred drunken conversations.

[...]

Jon had started drinking then, and he had not stopped.

[...]

Jon trembled. “I will never father a bastard,” he said carefully. “Never!” He spat it out like venom.

Suddenly he realized that the table had fallen silent, and they were all looking at him. He felt the tears begin to well behind his eyes. He pushed himself to his feet.

“I must be excused,” he said with the last of his dignity. He whirled and bolted before they could see him cry. He must have drunk more wine than he had realized. His feet got tangled under him as he tried to leave, and he lurched sideways into a serving girl and sent a flagon of spiced wine crashing to the floor. Laughter boomed all around him, and Jon felt hot tears on his cheeks. Someone tried to steady him. He wrenched free of their grip and ran, half-blind, for the door. Ghost followed close at his heels, out into the night.

- Jon

From the lurch in his step, she could tell at once that Viserys had found his wine…

[...]

“Where is my sister?” Viserys shouted, his voice thick with wine.

[...]

[Y]ou had only to look at him to know that he was drunk.

Ser Jorah went to him swiftly, whispered something in his ear, and took him by the arm, but Viserys wrenched free. “Keep your hands off me! No one touches the dragon without leave.”

[...]

Dany glanced anxiously up at the high bench. Khal Drogo was saying something to the other khals beside him. Khal Jommo grinned, and Khal Ogo began to guffaw loudly.

[...]

“Is place,” Khal Drogo answered, in the Common Tongue that Dany had taught him, “for Sorefoot King.” He clapped his hands together. “A cart! Bring cart for Khal Rhaggat!”

Five thousand Dothraki began to laugh and shout. Ser Jorah was standing beside Viserys, screaming in his ear, but the roar in the hall was so thunderous that Dany could not hear what he was saying. Her brother shouted back and the two men grappled, until Mormont knocked Viserys bodily to the floor.

Her brother drew his sword.

[...]

Viserys laughed. “They can’t kill us. They can’t shed blood here in the sacred city… but I can.” He laid the point of his sword between Daenerys’s breasts and slid it downward, over the curve of her belly. “I want what I came for,” he told her. “I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you. Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I’m taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I’ll cut the bastard out and leave it for him.” The sword point pushed through her silks and pricked at her navel. Viserys was weeping, she saw; weeping and laughing, both at the same time, this man who had once been her brother.

[...]

It had grown so silent in the hall that she could hear the bells in Khal Drogo’s hair, chiming softly with each step he took.

- Viserys

And that's not all, because GRRM strengthens this connection further by having Viserys subtly reminding us of the ToJ. You might have noticed this in the 'green' quote.

He laid the point of his sword between Daenerys’s breasts and slid it downward, over the curve of her belly. “I want what I came for,” he told her. “I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you. Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I’m taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I’ll cut the bastard out and leave it for him.”

Dany is a pregnant woman, like Lyanna was. Viserys wants what was "promised" to him, and "bastard."

Viserys smiled and lowered his sword. That was the saddest thing, the thing that tore at her afterward… the way he smiled. “That was all I wanted,” he said. “What was promised.”

Now compare that to Ned's recollection about his final moments with Lyanna.

“He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

- AGoT, Eddard I

All Lyanna wanted was for Ned to agree to her promise. Notice the similar phrasing: the way he smiled; the way she had smiled.

---

The colors in these last two posts do not correspond to the 'color key' I posted up thread.

I think this all works nicely with Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbringer theory, btw. Especially if you noticed the repeated sun and moon references. In case you're not familiar with it well, definitely read it, but long story short: once upon a time Rhaegar was the sun to Lyanna's moon, symbolically speaking.

Aside from that though, I'm not proposing a theory or anything, just pointing out the parallels. Draw your own conclusions. Though it should be obvious to everyone that dead Lyanna warged Viserys at the feast in Vaes Dothrak. :P

[the conquoring bastard25]

Don't know if this one has been mentioned before but when Jon and Val are talking about Shireen, Val says she's dead, Jon says that she's the heir to the 7 kingdoms, Val counters with then I pity your seven kingdoms then...

On the surface it's like I pity the realm that you call home, but then again the use of your could also infer that the kingdom was Jon's.

[Mithras]

"You'll find someone," Jon promised her. "King's Landing is a true city, a thousand times the size of Winterfell. Until you find a partner, watch how they fight in the yard. Run, and ride, make yourself strong. And whatever you do . . . "

Arya knew what was coming next. They said it together.

" . . . don't . . . tell . . . Sansa!"

Jon messed up her hair. "I will miss you, little sister."

Suddenly she looked like she was going to cry. "I wish you were coming with us."

"Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?"

This is from Jon and Arya in GOT,

Many take this as Arya ending up at castle black. But the last line. Arya says. I wish you were coming with us. Then Jon replies. Who knows? diff roads sometimes lead to the same castle.

I always took this as Jon will end up at Kings Landing

Or that giant city might be Harrenhal too. Arya always compared its size with respect to Winterfell. I think the KL is doomed to burn by wildfire. Jon will make his seat at Harrenhal.