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A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up Part 2


Fire Eater

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On 2013. szeptember 14. at 11:21 PM, Fire Eater said:

Something I posted in another thread


 

When he touched it his black gloves came away stained with red


 

The colors of his house; that results after he is permanently scarred by Orell's eagle. The ancient Greeks regarded the eagle as a symbol of authority and rulership, and several cultures from the Greeks to the Aztecs regarded the eagle as the highest messenger of the gods.


 

The ancient Greeks also connected the eagle with Zeus, the king of the gods while the Romans associated the eagle with Jupiter, the king of the gods; and the Germanic tribes with Odin, also the king of the gods and later Christians associated the eagle with Christ. It can be taken to imply that Jon has been (perhaps divinely) marked as king.

You make me think about something here.

The eagle marked Jon as king. Than this very same eagle went against Stannis and Melisandre (in the battle between Stannis and the Free Folk). Melisandre is soooo much in denial that she destroyed the mere sign of the true king... It is brilliant. I mean GRRM is incredible, really. I always felt there is something in this scene, but I never figured out what. So thank you for the idea!
 

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  • 1 month later...

I love how GRRM subtly placed this clever hint about Jon's kingship in this passage with Cersei...

“I glimpsed him (Jon) once at Winterfell,” the queen said, “though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father.” Her husband’s by-blows had his look as well, though at least Robert had the grace to keep them out of sight. Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. “Do as you please,” she’d told him, “but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl.” The bruise those words had won her had been hard to hide from Jaime, but they heard no more about the bastard girl. Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she’s left the filthy task to me. “Snow shares Lord Eddard’s taste for treason too,” she said. “The father would have handed the realm to Stannis. The son has given him lands and castles.”

Jon to Alys:

Marriages and inheritance (lands/castles) are matters for the king, my lady

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Not sure if it has been covered, but I recently re-read the Eddard chapter where Robert is dying, and it seems to be an inverse of the Tower of Joy sequence.  Ned passes three knights in whitecloaks, and a chill goes through him.  However these knights let him pass, whereas the ToJ kingsguard barred his way.  He enters Maegor's Holdfast, a stronghold nestled among the Red Keep (the ToJ is a watch tower "nestled" amongst the red mountains of Dorne.  He gives a dying king (and possibly queen) a promise but obscures his true intent.  Joffrey is a bastard believed to be true born, and Jon is possibly true born believed to be a bastard.  I believe Lyanna wanted/believed that Jon should be heir, and Ned twisted his promise as he did with Robert, hence the guilt.

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7 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

Not sure if it has been covered, but I recently re-read the Eddard chapter where Robert is dying, and it seems to be an inverse of the Tower of Joy sequence.  Ned passes three knights in whitecloaks, and a chill goes through him.  However these knights let him pass, whereas the ToJ kingsguard barred his way.  He enters Maegor's Holdfast, a stronghold nestled among the Red Keep (the ToJ is a watch tower "nestled" amongst the red mountains of Dorne.  He gives a dying king (and possibly queen) a promise but obscures his true intent.  Joffrey is a bastard believed to be true born, and Jon is possibly true born believed to be a bastard.  I believe Lyanna wanted/believed that Jon should be heir, and Ned twisted his promise as he did with Robert, hence the guilt.

"Lyanna wanted her son to be king"

What a selfish bi**h, for creating the war, her babe should have had its head crushed in a wall. The risk in raising Jon to be a king is to high. Ned was irresponisible and should atleest have gelded Jon and given him to some peasant.

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We obviously know too little about the events surrounding Lyanna and Rhaegar to assess virtually anything with any accuracy.  The motivations behind Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions is one of the more baffling mysteries in asoiaf.  Given what we know of them, albeit very little, I feel it would be poor storytelling if they eloped for lust/love while Westeros burned.  Something larger and more important was in play.  If Bloodraven and the Children can get a crippled boy to travel hundreds of miles north, past the wall, amidst winter and wildlings and white walkers, I do not think it beyond the pale that Rhaegar and Lyanna knew the importance of what they were doing.

Furthermore, it is my humble opinion that Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from a party of king's men that were sent to arrest her (a grey girl on a dying horse).

Also, it seems much more normal and acceptable behavior to press a legitimate claim than to not; fAegon, Dany, Viscerys, Stannis, and even Renly.  Admonishing Rhaegar and Lyanna for wanting Jon's legitimacy acknowledged (if indeed that is what they wanted) seems a bit unfair.

As far as gelding Jon, the crimes of the father should not pass to the son.  That seems extreme and cruel.

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8 minutes ago, finger said:

Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from marrying Robert, that she refused.

It's certainly possible, but it was Brandon's wedding that was imminent, not her own.  In all likelihood Lyanna' wedding was a year or more away.  Just one man's opinion, and I could certainly be wrong, but I do not see two Stark weddings on top of each other.  I don't believe it ever stated when Robert and Lyanna were to be wed, only that they were betrothed and Lyanna was skeptical.

Again, this could be it, but if so, if Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off for purely selfish reasons, then that is poor storytelling, IMHO.

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3 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

It's certainly possible, but it was Brandon's wedding that was imminent, not her own.  In all likelihood Lyanna' wedding was a year or more away.  Just one man's opinion, and I could certainly be wrong, but I do not see two Stark weddings on top of each other.  I don't believe it ever stated when Robert and Lyanna were to be wed, only that they were betrothed and Lyanna was skeptical.

Again, this could be it, but if so, if Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off for purely selfish reasons, then that is poor storytelling, IMHO.

:shocked: Bugger Romeo and Juliet

No offence meant.

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3 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

We obviously know too little about the events surrounding Lyanna and Rhaegar to assess virtually anything with any accuracy.  The motivations behind Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions is one of the more baffling mysteries in asoiaf.  Given what we know of them, albeit very little, I feel it would be poor storytelling if they eloped for lust/love while Westeros burned.  Something larger and more important was in play.  If Bloodraven and the Children can get a crippled boy to travel hundreds of miles north, past the wall, amidst winter and wildlings and white walkers, I do not think it beyond the pale that Rhaegar and Lyanna knew the importance of what they were doing.

Furthermore, it is my humble opinion that Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from a party of king's men that were sent to arrest her (a grey girl on a dying horse).

If Rhaegar and Lyanna thought that they were to make a savior. Just say it out loud, sure she would have shamed her House and Betrohed.  People would have looked down upon her. But her family would still be alive and not die for this idiotic eloping.

3 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

Also, it seems much more normal and acceptable behavior to press a legitimate claim than to not; fAegon, Dany, Viscerys, Stannis, and even Renly.  Admonishing Rhaegar and Lyanna for wanting Jon's legitimacy acknowledged (if indeed that is what they wanted) seems a bit unfair.

Polygamy is illegal and unlawfull so even if Rhaegar and Lyanna married it is not counting. Jon is still a bastard and will always be bastard.

3 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

As far as gelding Jon, the crimes of the father should not pass to the son.  That seems extreme and cruel.

Ned could not know what kind of boy jon would grow up to be. If Jon had claimed the throne he could have started a war! It ought to be done for the greater good.

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I never said they were out to make a savior, just that I think there is much more to their story than selfish love.  If that is indeed the case, then they are pretty horrible people, and I don't believe GrrM necessarily wants to portray them in that light, especially considering how well they are regarded by highly respectable characters. 

There is a precedent for polygamy, amongst Targaryens, Aerys had the power to legitimize a second marriage for Rhaegar, or to legitimize his child born out of wedlock.  Personally, I have no dog in the fight, Jon is who he is, being true born or bastard won't change that, at heart, he is Ned Stark's son, more so than maybe the other children.  However, I'm trying to determine what may of happened by the way Martin builds his story.  I for one think Martin has pulled the wool over some readers eyes with this there is no good or bad guys, and the notion that no character is safe.  I see classic villains that could be plucked from his story and dropped into any number of other stories.  I see heroic types as well.  He really milked the surprise Ned execution for all its worth, because other than Robb, no vitally important "good guy" character has died, IMHO.  We've had more secret identities, fake-out deaths, and resurrections than we can shake a stick at.

I said all that to say this, I personally do not think it matters story-wise if Jon is the true heir or not, I think Martin thinks it matters.  It's been awhile since I read the World Book, but iirc, Aerys sought Rhaegar for some time while the rebellion raged, and finally sent Gerold Hightower to the ToJ.  Rhaegar returned to lead the royalists, and the commander of the kingsguard stayed behind.  Why?  I think Aerys caved to Rhaegar's demands.  Not because it's what I want, but because logically, for me, it makes the most sense.

As for Jon, I guess we disagree, I don't think you should punish someone, especially a child, for what they might do, greater good or not.  The path to hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

As an aside, do you agree with Robert's decision to have Dany killed?  Or Stannis/Melisendre's decision to kill Edric, for the good of the realm?

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I really like the rubies idea. Also, this probably means nothing but j would like to throw it out there. The last grand dutches of the Romanov dynasty write a diary which has been published under the name "Rubies in the Snow" 

here is the synopsis from goodreads

Cast your mind back, to the early years of the 20th century. To Russia. An endless country of icy wastes and dusty plains, of silvery birch trees and black earth. A country of extremes. Of unimaginable wealth and unspeakable poverty. Of excess and hunger, culture and cruelty. A country ruled for nearly 300 years by one family, long accustomed to power and privilege - the Romanovs. And born into that family is a girl, an ordinary sort of girl in many respects, but one swept up by extraordinary circumstances: her name is Anastasia Nicolaevna Romanov, the last Grand Duchess, and this is her diary. Accompany her on an incredible journey, as the world around her fragments and shatters.

 

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  • 5 months later...

I'd like to bring up Ser Benedict Rivers (later Justman) who ruled as King of the Rivers and Hills. He grew up a bastard born of star-crossed lovers whose families fought on opposite sides. His house ruled for 300 years like House Targaryen. He was also the first of his name. 

I think Benedict Justman is a hint for Jon's future. Jon would gain the support of his mother's house, the Starks and the North, and his father's house, Targaryen and all their supporters in the South. Jon would also be the first of his name, and be well-remembered. 

On 5/25/2016 at 5:25 AM, YOVMO said:

I really like the rubies idea. Also, this probably means nothing but j would like to throw it out there. The last grand dutches of the Romanov dynasty write a diary which has been published under the name "Rubies in the Snow" 

here is the synopsis from goodreads

Cast your mind back, to the early years of the 20th century. To Russia. An endless country of icy wastes and dusty plains, of silvery birch trees and black earth. A country of extremes. Of unimaginable wealth and unspeakable poverty. Of excess and hunger, culture and cruelty. A country ruled for nearly 300 years by one family, long accustomed to power and privilege - the Romanovs. And born into that family is a girl, an ordinary sort of girl in many respects, but one swept up by extraordinary circumstances: her name is Anastasia Nicolaevna Romanov, the last Grand Duchess, and this is her diary. Accompany her on an incredible journey, as the world around her fragments and shatters.

 

The Romanov connection has been pointed to, and I do see Daenerys as a kind of Anastasia, the last surviving member of royal dynasty of a massive empire that was violently overthrown after ruling for 300 years. There is even the dragon eggs being connected to the jeweled Faberge eggs of the Romanovs. 

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8 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

I'd like to bring up Ser Benedict Rivers (later Justman) who ruled as King of the Rivers and Hills. He grew up a bastard born of star-crossed lovers whose families fought on opposite sides. His house ruled for 300 years like House Targaryen. He was also the first of his name. 

Something that occurred to me is that "Rivers" and "Hill" are bastard surnames. Maybe there is something of a hint there about kings and bastard surnames.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/13/2015 at 0:57 AM, IceFire125 said:

And with this parallel quote from Sansa of Joffrey laughing at court and Jon laughing with his men, and culminates with Selmy's.

He (Joffrey) laughed … and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him.
 
Jon laughed, laughed like a drunk or a madman, and his men laughed with him.
 
He (Selmy) had spent the best part of his own life obeying the commands of drunkards and madmen.

Jon's men laugh with him just a few paragraph earlier too, further reinforcing this connection:

Quote

"The Wall will stop them," Jon heard himself say. He turned and said it again, louder. "The Wall will stop them. The Wall defends itself." Hollow words, but he needed to say them, almost as much as his brothers needed to hear them. "Mance wants to unman us with his numbers. Does he think we're stupid?" He was shouting now, his leg forgotten, and every man was listening. "The chariots, the horsemen, all those fools on foot... what are they going to do to us up here? Any of you ever see a mammoth climb a wall?" He laughed, and Pyp and Owen and half a dozen more laughed with him. "They're nothing, they're less use than our straw brothers here, they can't reach us, they can't hurt us, and they don't frighten us, do they?" (Jon VIII, ASOS 64)

And the line about Joffrey laughing is in Sansa IV, ASOS 59, only a few chapters earlier, if that makes a difference to anyone.

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On 25/5/2016 at 0:32 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

Polygamy is illegal and unlawfull so even if Rhaegar and Lyanna married it is not counting. Jon is still a bastard and will always be bastard.

Do you have anything in the book saying that polygamy is illegal in the whole Westeros? It seems that at least the Old Gods were allowing polygamy.

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  • 1 month later...

I'm probably one of the few here in this forum that holds what GRRM's editor, Anne Groell, said close to heart.  And I believe her, because of all people that is able to edit GRRM's work in ASOIAF, she of all people, could observe patterns that GRRM, as a writer, does each time when it involves mysteries.

GRRM have placed these subtle revelations (as part of his 3-type revelations he does) every where with Jon.  The 3-type revelations are in this order: Very subtle - less subtle - final and open revelation (for readers and characters in the book).

Q: Anne, although you're the envy of many a GRRM fan, do you ever wish you didn't have to edit the books so that you could be surprised by them all at once along with the rest of us?

A: No. As above, he doesn’t tell me a lot. He feels I am most effective at my job if I am surprised along with everyone else. And it is easier to tell when he’s overplaying a hand and revealing things too early if you don’t actually know going in what will happen. That said, now that I’ve realized his three-fold revelation strategy, I see it in play almost every time. The first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else. It’s a brilliant strategy, and highly effective.

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/63456/how-much-does-george-r-r-martin-foreshadow/63468#63468

I think this is something that GRRM likes to use as an irony, by having someone (Person 1) said something to another (Person 2) that pertains to that individual (Person 2) directly, which fall in the category of the first type of revelation, the subtle hints.

“A queen stayed there for a night.” Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. “Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He’s called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she’d worn when she spent the night among them.”
I have never seen a dragon.”
“No one has. The last dragons died a hundred years ago or more. But this was before that.”
“Queen Alysanne, you say?”
“Good Queen Alysanne, they called her later. One of the castles on the Wall was named for her as well. Queensgate. Before her visit they called it Snowgate.”
“If she was so good, she should have torn that Wall down.”
No, he thought. The Wall protects the realm. From the Others … and from you and your kind as well, sweetling. “I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”

**Jon was telling Ygritte the story of when the Targaryen king and queen visited the North, bringing dragons with them.  The focus of Jon's story was The Queenscrown tower, honored to Queen Alyssane by the small folks.  The irony are red in bold, Ygritte mentioning that she never seen a dragon, but she was next to one (Jon with Targaryen blood).  And at the end before being cut off, another subtle hint of Jon admitting that he dreamed of dragons (which points to A+J=T as well), with GRRM fusing the subtle hints that Tyrion may also have dragon blood, on top of other hints he placed for him.

----------

Jon remained standing. “It’s my father, isn’t it?”
The Old Bear tapped the letter with a finger. “Your father and the king,” he rumbled. “I won’t lie to you, it’s grievous news. I never thought to see another king, not at my age, with Robert half my years and strong as a bull.”

**Yet at that very moment, he was staring at Jon (the true heir to the throne, thus the rightful king).

----------

“...until Jaime Lannister put an end to the line of the Dragonkings.”
King,” croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont’s shoulder. “King,” it said again, strutting back and forth.
“He likes that word,” Jon said, smiling.
“An easy word to say. An easy word to like.”
King,” the bird said again.
I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”
The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

...

“I’ve always known that Robb would be Lord of Winterfell.”
Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. “A lord’s one thing, a king’s another.” He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. “They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You’ll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they’ll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon … and I’ll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it.”

**Man!! Mormont's words to Jon ever since AGOT (asking him if he happens to have a horse with wings like a raven [like a dragon?]) always gave me chills and just like Old Nan's. It's like GRRM is speaking not to the characters they're saying it to, but straight to the readers.  Not to mention, Maester Aemon's words of counsel to Jon, similar to how he counseled his brother and king, Aegon V, shouts parallelism to me.  I can't wait for GRRM to fulfill and complete his early foreshadowing for Jon, as the king.

**Remember that the raven flew across the solar to mount Mormont's shoulder and then, "King".  Then the revelation continues again during the election for a new NW LC when raven landed near Jon and flew to Jon's shoulder.  I believe there will be another larger black winged creature that's gonna fly around the castle during the Great Council when the lords of Westeros elect a new king.  This time it will be Jon mounting the black winged creature's shoulder.  Jon will mount a black dragon for all to see.

 

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On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 4:10 AM, King Ned Stark said:

Not sure if it has been covered, but I recently re-read the Eddard chapter where Robert is dying, and it seems to be an inverse of the Tower of Joy sequence.  Ned passes three knights in whitecloaks, and a chill goes through him.  However these knights let him pass, whereas the ToJ kingsguard barred his way.  He enters Maegor's Holdfast, a stronghold nestled among the Red Keep (the ToJ is a watch tower "nestled" amongst the red mountains of Dorne.  He gives a dying king (and possibly queen) a promise but obscures his true intent.  Joffrey is a bastard believed to be true born, and Jon is possibly true born believed to be a bastard.  I believe Lyanna wanted/believed that Jon should be heir, and Ned twisted his promise as he did with Robert, hence the guilt.

So does this mean, that Lyanna wanted Ned to eat Jon?

Quote

Eat the bastard.  I don't care if you choke on him.  Promise me, Ned.

 

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  • 9 months later...

If we are to believe the theory that Jon will be King Aegon VII...

Then I like how this is truly GRRM's answer to JRRT's Aragorn...

Make sure that it is the real Strider. There are many strange men on the roads. His true name is Aragorn.


All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.

-[The Song of Aragorn in Gandalf's letter to Frodo.]-

There was a long silence. At last Frodo spoke with hesitation. ‘I believed that you were a friend before the letter came,’ he said, ‘or at least I wished to. You have frightened me several times tonight, but never in the way that servants of the Enemy would, or so I imagine. I think one of his spies would – well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.’
‘I see,’ laughed Strider. ‘I look foul and feel fair. Is that it? All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.
Did the verses apply to you then?’ asked Frodo. ‘I could not make out what they were about. But how did you know that they were in Gandalf ’s letter, if you have never seen it?
‘I did not know,’ he answered. ‘But I am Aragorn, and those verses go with that name.’

- The Fellowship of The Ring.

----

Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”
“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.”

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. “You don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.”

...

Gilly lowered her hand. An inch. Another. When the flame icked her flesh, she snatched her hand back and began to sob.
“Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life, but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.”

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