[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion

[Sandra Melis]

I don't really understand why they've changed Robb from wanting to go to the North again to deciding to just attack Casterly Rock. What's wrong with the strategic picture in the novels? They even introduced the Reeds, there's no reason to shy away from mentioning how their father will help him get past the Neck and into the North!

My 2 cents about that is the very very unlikely circumstance of the Crossing being the only feasible way to reach the North (if Westeros were in the real world): I've always felt this quite unconvincing and forced!

[MsLibby]

That was not a body double. Christie has one very toned, hot looking body. You've seenher in some of those short dresses and even her fellow cast members said her legs and body rock.

[Versiroth]

I really like how they reminded the non-book audience were John's allegiance still lies. Well, as long as they've been paying attention. They'll know that most of the men from Castle black went north with the old bear and that John is trying to protect them. He is also hesitant at first to break his vows with Ygritte.

[Lord Varys]

I have to admit it: I really cried in this episode, first when they introduced Stannis' family, and then when Shireen sang Patchface's songs. This was priceless.

But I'm also quite pissed with how they ruined (again!) Loras' and Littlefinger's character. Why did he have to act on Cersei's orders? In the book he did everything on his own accord to ensure that Sansa stays in the city. That element still remains in the show, but to make Sansa clever Loras has to become an idiot.

And to make Loras Tyrell heir to Highgarden is soo wrong.

[Roose Seal]

But I looked at it as almost a reflection of Theon's beheading of Cassel, also it seems to coincide with the "point of no return" theme they both share as characters.

Good point. I hadn't thought about it that way.

Also, I wasn't under the impression that Gwen Christie had a body double. They "uglied" (relatively speaking) her up a bit in the show, but she's a stunning looking model irl, so I don't see why she'd need a double.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Loose seal

[Versiroth]

I'd also like to mention that I still hate Jaime Lannister. I mean, it takes him becoming a cripple to ever even attempt to change his arrogant ways (a fate well deserved for making Bran a cripple) and yet everyone acts like he's this awesome character for attempting to redeem himself a little.

[eetrebor]

Anybody else get extremely annoyed that people are complaning/ranting about the Loras betrothal(s) because they think he's in the Kingsguard? Its pretty amazing how some bookreaders just can't separate the two entities and continuities. They end up missing a lot.

[BananaSpice]

But I looked at it as almost a reflection of Theon's beheading of Cassel, also it seems to coincide with the "point of no return" theme they both share as characters.

This. I think it was supposed to draw obvious (to us) parellels between the beheadings and that it was a "this is where it all goes wrong" / point of no return moment.

ngl, though ... it really anoyed me that Robb's execution was so clean ... in the book it takes him a few strikes and blood splatters everywhere - it's very messy (like Theon's was in the show) ... I think they should have kept that. They are both young and struggling and don't have swords as good as Ice.

[Ran]

My 2 cents about that is the very very unlikely circumstance of the Crossing being the only feasible way to reach the North (if Westeros were in the real world): I've always felt this quite unconvincing and forced!

That's not why Robb needs the Freys, though, in the book. There's no question of his getting to the causeway, in fact. The problem is that if the Freys are enemies, that's four thousand swords at his back if he tries it, perfectly positioned even while the Lannister host is elsewhere. He needs their swords on his side, as he needs them if he wants any hope to hold the riverlands and win back the North.

[Conchobar]

Good point. I hadn't thought about it that way.

Also, I wasn't under the impression that Gwen Christie had a body double. They "uglied" (relatively speaking) her up a bit in the show, but she's a stunning looking model irl, so I don't see why she'd need a double.

Well that is news to me. I am sure they had some reason for it though, it only complicated things for them.

This. I think it was supposed to draw obvious (to us) parellels between the beheadings and that it was a "this is where it all goes wrong" / point of no return moment.

ngl, though ... it really anoyed me that Robb's execution was so clean ... in the book it takes him a few strikes and blood splatters everywhere - it's very messy (like Theon's was in the show) ... I think they should have kept that. They are both young and struggling and don't have swords as good as Ice.

I agree, although there was a weird parallel I felt between Robb and his father when he cut off Rickard's head, the cleanliness of it made me think...."Robb is his father's son, he is Ned." It was a nice moment.

It is such a small detail, but Rickard's hair should have been moved off of the back of his neck, as should Ygritte's when Jon was about to behead her last season.

Also, I found it funny seeing Loras fighting with that guy with helmets on. " WHat, helmets?!?! What are these things they are wearing?!? They look so silly in them! " lol. It was refreshing to see helmets but amusing to see them wearing them in the show when they least needed them.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Cellio

[aFeastForDragons]

Did anyone else notice Tywin said Bran and Rickon are dead. Up to this we have been told they are missing so my guess is Tywin has gotten word already from Roose. The seeds have been planted.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Here mate. 1.05: "Now we're even". After saving him from Rattleskirt. She saw him sparing her. Hope this helps.

http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player

Yeah, you're right. I forgot about that. But I still think that just keeping her captive would have been better than missing on purpose. The scenes between them would have worked just as fine with the book version. And even changing it, I felt the romance was too forced.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Did anyone else notice Tywin said Bran and Rickon are dead. Up to this we have been told they are missing so my guess is Tywin has gotten word already from Roose. The seeds have been planted.

He said that Theon killed Robb's brothers. Yeah if not even Robb and Cat know then he probably allied with Roose already.

[BananaSpice]

Did anyone else notice Tywin said Bran and Rickon are dead. Up to this we have been told they are missing so my guess is Tywin has gotten word already from Roose. The seeds have been planted.

I did notice that! ... although Roose might be lying to Tywin if Ramsay already told Roose that the boys aren't really dead, right? OMFG LAYERS.

[rohit39]

A couple of points i want to bring up here, i apologise if they've been discussed before in these 17 pages of discussion, but its impossible to go through them all before posting, so i'd appreciate if someone point out the relevant posts to my queries/observations, and also if people answered them with new posts!

1) One thing that really strikes me odd is how Catelyn on the show doesn't face any repercussions at all for releasing Jaime. In the book, since Robb has secretly married Jeyne, he uses the whole situation to his advantage, and thus Catelyn does not face any consequences. But in the show with the Robb secret wedding out, there is no motivation to have Catelyn face no consequences, right?

2) One part i really hoped to see from the books in the Karstark execution scene, was where Lord Karstark thanks Rob for doing the beheading himself, but for nothing else. I think they missed a trick there. Could have been a good opportunity to show the differences between people from the North and South.

3) Is no one really bothered about the apparent lack of interest amongst Robb and the other northerners to reclaim the North back from the Greyjoys, like the books? It doesn't quite make sense in the show that inspite of bad news from Winterfell, and the entire North falling, that Robb still looks to strike Casterly Rock (which also doesn't make sense, but i'd let that slide).

it should have been easier if they had just shown Frey reactions to the marriage, and their people leaving Robb's side, and later on show Robb realising he needs the Freys on his side to win the war. Like the books.

But apart from these small misgivings, great episode! Brilliantly paced, lot of great moments, straight from the books. Getting my hopes up for episode 9! :D

[Breaker of Ice]

In not a fan of T.V. Tormund or Mance. Also, what has Jon done for them to like him? Both have made a point of telling him they like him, but he hasn't really done anything so far.

[Joyful Union]

Did anyone else notice Tywin said Bran and Rickon are dead. Up to this we have been told they are missing so my guess is Tywin has gotten word already from Roose. The seeds have been planted.

OMG,The Roose is Officially Loose!

Edited April 29, 2013 by Joyful Union

[Batman]

Gendry and Arya

That last line where Gendry says "you would'nt be my family, you would be my lady". At first I took that as the hint of Gendry having feelings for her. On second watching it was much more obvious that he was saying they could never be family because she was highborn and he was a bastard.

This is how desperately I want them to be together, that I am twisting scenes to serve my hopes. Fuck it, I am holding out hope.

[caravaggio]

I thought this episode was one of the stronger ones of the series for many reasons (all of them listed above).

I found the Stannis and family scenes especially moving for some reason. Especially Shireen! You really feel for her.

I wondered (during the Stannis/Selyse interactions) if the show was implying that the reason Selyse gets involved with Melisandre is some attempt to bring the dead sons to life or fix Shireen. Is Shireen locked up because Selyse thinks the greyscale can be spread? Is that why she doesn't want Stannis to see her? I wondered while watching if Melisandre was going to ask to burn Shireen instead of Edric/Gendry.

Oh and I think its possible we will still have Patchface.

I think there is going to be a great juxtaposition of the Dany talking to Greyworm scene from this episode (feeling good about freeing slaves) with Dany crucifying slavers (the other side of the coin) in a future episode.

Here is a question I had... since they don't seem to be bringing the Northern Lords back for this season who is going to be there to witness Robb signing his will and take it North? The Blackfish and Edmure? I've always thought that would turn out to be something important in later books, so they wouldn't cut the will out entirely would they?

I agree that the Jon storyline hasn't gained the traction it needs. His story really suffers from having such limited time (why only 10 episodes HBO, WHY?) and so many things get cut or put in fastforward. If Jon is going to climb the Wall next episode, I guess he won't be talking to Mance again until he goes to bargain with him after his return to the NW.

[The Mondrian Oak]

Yeah, you're right. I forgot about that. But I still think that just keeping her captive would have been better than missing on purpose. The scenes between them would have worked just as fine with the book version. And even changing it, I felt the romance was too forced.

Well, to be fair, her running away was due to Jon's inexperience. I believe he was going to seize her, after missing, but he was slow in reacting, which resulted in her fleeing. To be honest, I think that the whole "missing" thing was meant for us watchers, to make us scream something like "SHIT, HE'S DOING IT!!", just to be relieved immediately afterwards. Or maybe just to scare her off a little bit. I don't know, that scene is a little bit odd, I agree. Anyhow, I think that part of the story makes perfectly stands on its feet. The books were different, but I don't think they were better, in this case (letting Ygritte go was plain dumb, for me). But yes, the show romance feels a bit more like an instant crush than a built up feeling.

Edited April 29, 2013 by The Mondrian Oak