[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion

[Dove]

To be honest I was never crazy about the density of prophecies in the series, even though they're arguably such a huge part of it and they're handled better than 90% of the prophecies in other fictional works. The show slimming them down or downplaying them until they're needed is a big improvement for me, personally, but I can see how the more analytical fans who have fun picking them apart and examining every angle would feel a little cheated.

[wolverine]

To be honest I was never crazy about the density of prophecies in the series, even though they're arguably such a huge part of it and they're handled better than 90% of the prophecies in other fictional works. The show slimming them down or downplaying them until they're needed is a big improvement for me, personally, but I can see how the more analytical fans who have fun picking them apart and examining every angle would feel a little cheated.

:agree:

[Newstar]

To be honest I was never crazy about the density of prophecies in the series, even though they're arguably such a huge part of it and they're handled better than 90% of the prophecies in other fictional works. The show slimming them down or downplaying them until they're needed is a big improvement for me, personally, but I can see how the more analytical fans who have fun picking them apart and examining every angle would feel a little cheated.

Agreed. Of course, my own take on the lack of prophecies in the show to date is that they've shown just how little many of these prophecies really ultimately add to or are needed by the books.

[Joyful Union]

To be honest I was never crazy about the density of prophecies in the series, even though they're arguably such a huge part of it and they're handled better than 90% of the prophecies in other fictional works. The show slimming them down or downplaying them until they're needed is a big improvement for me, personally, but I can see how the more analytical fans who have fun picking them apart and examining every angle would feel a little cheated.

Definitely. The worst for me was the Cersei Maggy the Frog prophecy. Why couldnt Cersei just hate Tyrion for a real reason? We didnt need this valonqar bs.

[NickyM]

Definitely. The worst for me was the Cersei Maggy the Frog prophecy. Why couldnt Cersei just hate Tyrion for a real reason? We didnt need this valonqar bs.

I can't really remember the time line but I thought Cersei went to the profet after Tyrion was born and she has been being a Bitch to him ever since he was born. Which came first the prophey or her trying to twist of Tyrion's manhood at 9. I thought the prophey was after that, but I can never see a valid time line.

[Stannisfan]

I love the prophesies, I would have liked to see Maggy telling Arya 'begone dark heart' I loved that bit in the book. I agree there is no point to them in the show though!

[Maxthestig]

Here is our review.

I think I love Diana Rigg !!!

The scene with Roose Bolton is such tease. I Love him too !

[Dove]

I can't really remember the time line but I thought Cersei went to the profet after Tyrion was born and she has been being a Bitch to him ever since he was born. Which came first the prophey or her trying to twist of Tyrion's manhood at 9. I thought the prophey was after that, but I can never see a valid time line.

I just got an answer to this question on the general ASOIAF board, actually.

Cersei hurting baby Tyrion came before the prophecy. She met Maggy + heard about the valonqar two years after that.

Before she had the prophecy to fuel her paranoia, it was pretty much her resentment over the death of their mother that made her so angry towards him. (unfortunately Cersei wasn't the only one who felt that way about Joanna, as Tywin seemed to rub it in his face a lot too)

[Lady Lion]

I just want a Tormund "Har!" : (

[Belacel]

In my opinion, the prophesies and dreams are a great device for the book series. First, they are a complex form of foreshadowing that nourishes the reader looking for deeper connections or meaning. They also contribute to the general eerie atmosphere of this strange world. As a reader, I must look at the exact wording, and compare the various prophesies to advance my reflection. I often had to go back to the previous books or chapters and read them again.

I believe there are too many prophesies, and they are too complex, to figure all in the TV series. Still, some prophesies play an important part (or so it seems), and I guess that those that have made it to the TV series (or that will do so) are the most significant. The selection that will be made between all the prophesies, histories and dreams will most certainly give us a considerable indication of what is still to come.

[madprofessah]

If they basically need to stop a Loras Tyrell-Sansa Stark marriage why is it that Tywin has to marry off both halves of the couple to his children?

Why can't he either marry off Sansa Stark to Tyrion OR marry off Loras to Cersei? I really think the second match here is the more important one strategically. We KNOW that Highgarden has money and supplies (even though Dorne is far away) but I find it hard to believe that the people of the North are going to rise up and follow Sansa Stark's husband as the true heir to the North, especially if it is Littlefinger, (ummm, pardon me!) I mean Lord Baelish of Harrenhall.

The fact that Tywin wants both weddings to happen demonstrates 1) how greedy he is and 2) how little he thinks of the happiness/concerns of his children. Basically everyone is property to him. I can not WAIT for the privy scene in Season 4 :)

I for one am pretty sure we will see Loras in the Kingsguard very very soon.

[Khal Porno]

I think it also serves the narrative purpose of motivating Cersei to manipulate Loras into the Kingsguard. Maybe.

[Jon Icefyre]

If they basically need to stop a Loras Tyrell-Sansa Stark marriage why is it that Tywin has to marry off both halves of the couple to his children?

Why can't he either marry off Sansa Stark to Tyrion OR marry off Loras to Cersei? I really think the second match here is the more important one strategically. We KNOW that Highgarden has money and supplies (even though Dorne is far away) but I find it hard to believe that the people of the North are going to rise up and follow Sansa Stark's husband as the true heir to the North, especially if it is Littlefinger, (ummm, pardon me!) I mean Lord Baelish of Harrenhall.

The fact that Tywin wants both weddings to happen demonstrates 1) how greedy he is and 2) how little he thinks of the happiness/concerns of his children. Basically everyone is property to him. I can not WAIT for the privy scene in Season 4 :)

I for one am pretty sure we will see Loras in the Kingsguard very very soon.

Have you read the books? Tywin marrying off Sansa to Tyrion was never really about Tyrion getting the North. The true purpose of the marriage is for Sansa to give the Lannnisters a son that can claim Winterfell. I'm assuming that if the plan would have gone as hoped then once Sansa gave Tyrion a son Tywin would have most likely arranged for the boy to have his surname be Stark instead of Lannister. Which would not only give the boy a surname the North could acknowledge as ruler of Winterfell, but also at the the same time give the Lannisters an immense amount of power and influence in the North being that the boy would actually have a Stark(Sansa) as a mother but a Lannister(Tyrion) as a father.

This is what I love about Tywin he's always 10 steps ahead of everyone else. While everyone else is fighting and bickering about the now as if they can't see the forest for the trees, Tywin is always thinking about the future and how to make sure the Lannister secure their power in that future. I mean the guy might be a total bastard, but he's also a total political fuckin genius.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Jon Icefyre

[Silverx2]

Have you read the books? Tywin marrying off Sansa to Tyrion was never really about Tyrion getting the North. The true purpose of the marriage is for Sansa to give the Lannnisters a son that can claim Winterfell. I'm assuming that if the plan would have gone as hoped then once Sansa gave Tyrion a son Tywin would have most likely arranged for the boy to have his surname be Stark instead of Lannister. Which would not only give the boy a surname the North could acknowledge as ruler of Winterfell, but also at the the same time give the Lannisters an immense amount of power and influence in the North being that the boy would actually have a Stark(Sansa) as a mother but a Lannister(Tyrion) as a father.

This is what I love about Tywin he's always 10 steps ahead of everyone else. While everyone else is fighting and bickering about the now as if they can't see the forest for the trees, Tywin is always thinking about the future and how to make sure the Lannister secure their power in that future. I mean the guy might be a total bastard, but he's also a total political fuckin genius.

Lanistark

[Archangel84]

Did you guys notice Grey Wind in the background during Rickard Karstark's beheading? I really hope they show him a few more times before the RW.

[madprofessah]

Have you read the books? Tywin marrying off Sansa to Tyrion was never really about Tyrion getting the North. The true purpose of the marriage is for Sansa to give the Lannnisters a son that can claim Winterfell. I'm assuming that if the plan would have gone as hoped then once Sansa gave Tyrion a son Tywin would have most likely arranged for the boy to have his surname be Stark instead of Lannister. Which would not only give the boy a surname the North could acknowledge as ruler of Winterfell, but also at the the same time give the Lannisters an immense amount of power and influence in the North being that the boy would actually have a Stark(Sansa) as a mother but a Lannister(Tyrion) as a father.

This is what I love about Tywin he's always 10 steps ahead of everyone else. While everyone else is fighting and bickering about the now as if they can't see the forest for the trees, Tywin is always thinking about the future and how to make sure the Lannister secure their power in that future. I mean the guy might be a total bastard, but he's also a total political fuckin genius.

Yes, I've read the books (although I must confess they do sort of blur together except for the unforgettable impression that A Feast for Crows sucks.) Anyway, I guess I sort of knew that the primary point of a Tyrion-Sansa marriage would be a male heir but since that kid wouldn't be able to articulate his claim to the North for 10-15 years it seems like a very long time to wait for Tywin, who may not even be alive by then. I do agree with you that Tywin does play "the long game" very well.

Is Tywin the best player of the Game of Thrones? I'd put my money on The Spider.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Tywin would be the best player if he knew how to be a parent enough to the children to whom he gives so much power and influence. His entire legacy is "Brilliant manipulator, terrible father."

[Jon Icefyre]

Yes, I've read the books (although I must confess they do sort of blur together except for the unforgettable impression that A Feast for Crows sucks.) Anyway, I guess I sort of knew that the primary point of a Tyrion-Sansa marriage would be a male heir but since that kid wouldn't be able to articulate his claim to the North for 10-15 years it seems like a very long time to wait for Tywin, who may not even be alive by then. I do agree with you that Tywin does play "the long game" very well.

Is Tywin the best player of the Game of Thrones? I'd put my money on The Spider.

Not neccesarily, the North would only need to see proof of the child's existence whether the boy is 3 years old or 15 years old the fact remains he would still have the same claim to Winterfell, his claim doesn't change with age. Also it should be noted that Tywin acknowledges the fact that the Lannisters wouldn't make their move for the North until after the upcoming winter season is over and who knows how long that will last? At the point where Tywin arranges for Tyrion to marry Sansa winter hadn't even started yet.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Jon Icefyre

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Not neccesarily, the North would only need to see proof of the child's existence whether the boy is 3 years old or 15 years old the fact remains he would still have the same claim to Winterfell, his claim doesn't change with age. Also it should be noted that Tywin acknowledges the fact that the Lannister wouldn't make their move for the North until after the upcoming winter season is over and who know's how long that will last? At the point where Tywin arranges for Tyrion to marry Sansa winter hadn't even started yet.

Take, for example, the theories of Robb getting Jeyne pregnant as precedence. It would just be a baby but it would be the heir and change everything. So Jon Icefyre is right, the heir need only exist to be the heir. Hence Tywin presenting the dead Targeryan babes to Robert.

[Jon Icefyre]

Take, for example, the theories of Robb getting Jeyne pregnant as precedence. It would just be a baby but it would be the heir and change everything. So Jon Icefyre is right, the heir need only exist to be the heir. Hence Tywin presenting the dead Targeryan babes to Robert.

:agree: Exactly well said.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Jon Icefyre