Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion

Recommended Posts

For those of you who are complaining about Loras fooling around with another man, sex doesn't equal love. We never get his POV in the books, so we can't be 100% certain that he never slept with anyone after Renly's death.

I'm usually on board with a lot of changes they make, especially those about eliminating book characters to streamline the story. I'm not even mad at the lack of Willas, it makes sense. Same here, it's not the sex or even the concept of "using known network of whore-spies" for Littlefinger.... I think the problem is the tone of the scene.

Loras seems too carefree and too similar to how he was with Renly. And last season he had a couple of really nice lines of grief "What do you want most in the world?" "Revenge". Clearly TV!Loras was affected by Renly's death. I'm not saying someone can't drown his grief in sex or try for a little human companionship. But there is just no sense of that grief here and unfortunately...

Well despite the relationship not being explicit in the books,GRRM does manage to score a really good point for homosexuality. There's a big stereotype saying gay men are fickle and promiscuous and that somehow homosexual love is just about gratification and not about something like deep "heterosexual" love. Book!Loras was a huge mark against that stereotype of popular culture. Book!Loras mourned, in a very young way, he acted exactly like a teen in love would act, straight or gay. And this grief and devotion, that even Jaime Lannister saw, just seems completely absent from TV!Loras.

I would have been totally into that scene if we could see the grief. Maybe a Loras who is all bitterly complaining about the marriage, looking for a sympathetic ear, or a Loras who is all like, shut up, you're not here to talk, or a Loras who is trying desperately to act carefree but on whom you can see the despair leeking through. I was on board with how unaffected Loras seemed during all his other scenes, because that was his public persona. Evidently the Tyrell siblings know how to pull off successful public personas. But this was a private moment, exactly the perfect moment to show grief.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To all those who complained about the "butchery of Qhorin Halfhand" last year:

You see, today's episode proved D&D right. They needed to flesh out Ygritte, in order to make her falling for Jon more solid, since, as you may have noticed, there was ABSOLUTELY no time to develop her carachter in this season. So they had to create all those new scenes with her an Jon last year in order to lay the ground for their chemistry. And still their romance feels a bit rushed, even after all those scenes they have been in last season! Imagine if they hadn't dropped Qhorin's and Jon's running chapters. Another ENTIRE storyline, with Jon and Ygritte falling in love, would have needed to be fleshed out this season, and there would have been no time at all, as you can all see. While, given what they've done, they actually did not show Ygritte for 2 or 3 weeks, and still showed a believable and solid love scene.

Yes, Qhorin's chapters would have been amazing on screen. Still, they HAD to be dropped, for the sake of carachter development of more important carachters.

I salute you, D&D.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My comments.

-Shireen was adorable

-I thought Selyse was a lot less bitchy than in the books, but the fetuses made up for it in creepiness

-Beric vs. The Hound was awesome, especially Sandor frantically trying to smash his burning shield.

-Jorah & Barristan was awesome

-Brienne and Jamie could probably not have been done better.

-Nice to see Edmure being seemingly more resonable and less stupid while talking to Robb. The execution scene was also nice.

-The guy who plays Roose Bolton just stepped up his game a notch. The line about Cersei being alright was brilliant

.

-Finally, the nudity of this paricukar episode seemed very balanced bewteen the genders. Also, Rose Leslie is gorgeous.

Edited by The_Gallows_Knight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I loved the episode, even more than last weeks'.

Some random thoughts:

Beric vs. Hound - amazing. Straight from the books. I did not think this will be the first scene, always imagined ressurected Beric as a cliffhanger, but it worked. I think this was the first time we hear Hound's real name, Sandor, on the show.

And Arya - I too teared up when she told Gendry they could be family.

Best thing about this one was Shireen - adorable ,cute, seems cheerful even with grayscale. Second time I teared up was when Stannis told her Davos is a traitor rotting in a cell. Oh and that Patchface song was way better than that god-awful punk version of Bear and the Maiden Fair.

Dead babies in the jars - well I've seen the pictures before, and I was dreading this bit ,but it turned out to be not so bad after all. I wonder how you people propose to replace the leeches with them - taking them out of the jars and burn..eww...too gross, would they show that on TV?

So, they changed Robb's strategy a bit. Now he needs Freys because he needs more men. Someone upthread mentioned that he gained Freys in S1, so where are they? I guess they left when he married Talisa, I just wish it was mentioned on the show, same as with the Karstarks leaving his side.

It looks like Lannisters are really winning at all fronts: Dorne allegiance via Myrcella; Reach allegiance via Margery and Loras, Vale via Petyr and Lisa.... Riverlands and North soon to fall cause Bolton..... then gaining North via Sansa and Riverlands via Freys... and Iron Islands are probably too insignificant for Tywin to bother with just now.. His scene with Tyrion and Cersei was brilliant.

About Loras - I am on board with those who say that he just has needs and having sex with another man does not mean he did not love Renly. When he asked that squire (Olyvar -another book drop btw.) 'how did you know?'; I half expected the squire to say 'The whole realm knows...' - cause you know that's how they made it look on the show......

Jon's story still feels a bit rushed for me. I liked the cave scene and all, I just think he needs more time on screen. I wonder if this is because that issue with Kit's broken ankle during shooting, thus not having enough time to fit in more stuff.

This season really gets better and better each week, looking forward to next one....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't that the best feature of Stannis in the books? In how he has so many great lines that just come off as unintentional comedy.

Yeah but it was more so the face he made just before he got up and left...

Stannis farted on Shireen's bed, I know oh-oh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My one issue. What the heck would be accomplished by marrying cersei to Loras . They are already creating an alliance with highgarden with the royal wedding. Seems like a waste to me.

In the book Tywin cycled through possible choices which included Robert Arryn and Theon Greyjoy. Besides Loras already announced he was joining the Kingsguard and Joffrey accepted.

I don't think is for alliances but to get ride of Cersei.

In books, he suggests Willas but then Mace reffuses, calling Cersei too "old and used up" (Please, let QoT say this....). Tywin didn't let Cersei know as he wouldn't let her now that he's marrying her so she would go away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've looked through the thread and couldn't find an answer to this question, but did Selyse refer to one of the stillborn sons as Edric?

As in Edric Storm?

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it and yes she did. That's a cool nod to the books on the writers part IMO

Edited by LNorsworthy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[snip]Only part i didn't really like and was confused by was why they chose Loras for Cersi's husband. Does it seem strange to anyone else that she was told to marry the brother of her son's fiance? I mean i know they had crazy marriages back then, but that still just seems so wrong.

Considering the incest that Cersi has been involved with no. Tywin thinking more of the efficency over intermingling of the family trees, I don't see that as a real issue. I do think it's funny that the mother of the king will be the sister in law (by marriage) to the king.

Also I think getting Cersi to a place that has just as much manipulation as she does is a good idea. if it wasn't for the fact that the Tryells are cunning and can see through Cersi's crap, Tywin might have to think twice before having her wed the heir to the 2nd most powerful family. He's sending his viper daughter to go live with vipers. I love the simplicity of that.

Edited by NickyM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Hound/Beric fight blows every other fight in GoT out of the water! The choreography and direction was incredible!

They should get Alex Graves back for the Oberyn/Gregor duel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've looked through the thread and couldn't find an answer to this question, but did Selyse refer to one of the stillborn sons as Edric?

As in Edric Storm?

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it and yes she did. That's a cool nod to the books on the writers part IMO

Yeah, there was a couple cool little nods. Edric, "Aegon - it sounds like Egg", and Shireen singing Patchface's songs being the most obvious ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just realised, I suppose that the stillborns in the jars will replace the leeches, and will be burnt by Melisandre after Davos saves Gendry.(around episode 8 I suppose). That, or they will be burned in order to gain favorable winds to the Wall in season 4.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Karstarks and Freys each being able accpunt for half of Robb's forces seems silly to me. Maybe he should have specified that the Riverlords hav all gone to defed their own lands from the Mountain or some such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely loved the episode, except for everything Jon/Ygritte. I find their relationship on the show so unconvincing it feels like a pantomime. Everything else however was perfect.

Looks like Shireen will be Patchface, which should work really well, I think. Tara Fitzgerald, was great. A vast improvement on book Selyse. Ofcourse Shireen being blond is baffling, considering the "Baratheon: Black of Hair" issue from season 1. Not sure what the creators were thinking there.

Everything else was perfect. Jaime and Robb's scenes were superb. Absolutely golden. The highlights of the episode. Arya's closeup shots were likewise wonderful.

When Robb mentioned the Freys as part of his plan.A small squeaky "no!" issued from my mouth. My friends watching with me who haven't read the books, turned and looked at me like I had just sprouted a second head. My heart sank at Robb's plan. I can feel the pain of RW already.

I think if the build-up of Robb as a General with a plan continues the way it was begun tonight, then RW in ep9 will break the internet.

Edited by Sun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question: Haven't really read the books. The only thing that bugged me about Jaime's story was, why was Stark's opinion the only one that mattered? Could he not have defened his actions to any other house, council member or anything? I haven't read the books so I'm not sure but was this the first moment the truth of why he did it revealed. Viewer's and readers knew DragonFire exsisted because of Blackwater. I also realize they -the people of King'sLanding- may wanted have keep it secret for security purposes, but really did no one really talk about it or investigate it.

I mean I know many people think Stark was judgemental and honorable to the point of loosing his head over it, but it's hard to fathom that Ned would have continued to fault Jaime if he knew it was to save the people of King's Landing and had nothing to do with politics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys, something's been bugging me every time I watch the King's Council scenes (and sorry if it was brought up elsewhere): what happened to Kevan (and Lancel for that matter)? Did they cut them from this season?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question: Haven't really read the books. The only thing that bugged me about Jaime's story was, why was Stark's opinion the only one that mattered? Could he not have defened his actions to any other house, council member or anything? I haven't read the books so I'm not sure but was this the first moment the truth of why he did it revealed. Viewer's and readers knew DragonFire exsisted because of Blackwater. I also realize they -the people of King'sLanding- may wanted have keep it secret for security purposes, but really did no one really talk about it or investigate it.

I mean I know many people think Stark was judgemental and honorable to the point of loosing his head over it, but it's hard to fathom that Ned would have continued to fault Jaime if he knew it was to save the people of King's Landing and had nothing to do with politics.

Ned was the first man to enter the throneroom (other then Lannister mooks), just when Jaime was taking a break from Kingslaying on the Iron Throne.

Edited by DurararaFTW

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man Grey Worm was scrawny.

Removing Dontos has messed up the pacing of Littlefinger's departure...seems like he has been leaving for three episodes...and unless they move the PW up, he is going to be still around the rest of the season isnt he?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did anybody else notice that the theme playing during Karstark's execution was the same one that was used when Theon beheaded Rodrik? I thought it was a bit of a strange choice, since the theme was titled 'Pay the Iron Price', but oh well, it served it's purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really liked how Jorah was trying to figure out how much Barristan knows about his betrayal.

Also: Child: Daddy, look what my friend Davos done for me.

Daddy Stannis: Davos is a traitor he is rotting alive in my dungeons.

Stannis really has his way with children :cool4: .

Also conversation between Sansa and LF was great, she was smiling and talking about his well-being while lying right into his face and he of course knew it.

Some interesting points:

Is there even episode of season 3 where Volantis isn't mentioned? No other free city was given this much attention, not even Braavos.

I wonder why Jon asked Orell what will happen to his eagle when he dies. Does Jon have any suspicion that he or his siblings are wargs?

Why was Arya again mentioned in conversation between Cersei and LF? Build up for the "Arya" plot?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question: Haven't really read the books. The only thing that bugged me about Jaime's story was, why was Stark's opinion the only one that mattered? Could he not have defened his actions to any other house, council member or anything? I haven't read the books so I'm not sure but was this the first moment the truth of why he did it revealed. Viewer's and readers knew DragonFire exsisted because of Blackwater. I also realize they -the people of King'sLanding- may wanted have keep it secret for security purposes, but really did no one really talk about it or investigate it.

I mean I know many people think Stark was judgemental and honorable to the point of loosing his head over it, but it's hard to fathom that Ned would have continued to fault Jaime if he knew it was to save the people of King's Landing and had nothing to do with politics.

The scene in the book differs slightly, but the gist is Ned Stark was the first rebel Lord to find Jaime, and he instantaneously, no questions asked, judged him a traitor . When Jaime saw the reaction from Ned - condemnation, derision in his eyes - his Lannister pride took over, and from that instant on, refused to humble himself by explaining his actions to Ned, or anyone else for that matter. He saw Ned's condemnation as hypocritical and morally superior, and his own actions righteous, and wouldn't humble himself by asking for anyone's, least of all the ever so honorable rebel lords.

Also, and most crucially, once Tywin sacked the city and had Elia and her children murdered, no one would believe that Jaime, son of turncloak opportunist child murdering Tywin, had killed Aerys for any reason other than furthering his father's aims. This is how Ned came to the conclusion that Jaime is nothing more than a dishonorable Kingslayer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×