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[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion

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In not a fan of T.V. Tormund or Mance. Also, what has Jon done for them to like him? Both have made a point of telling him they like him, but he hasn't really done anything so far.

Uh, he "turns his cloak", which is something Mance can relate to. He tells Mance that his side is the one fighting for the living, he kills the Halfhand, who had killed many wildlings, and he also gave both Mance and the other Tormund what they believe is truthful knowledge of what the watch is doing/how the operate.

The better question is, what has he done to make them dislike him?

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Great episode. Dragonstone is just getting creepier and I think the fetuses were quite well managed. Shireen is simply adorable. Is her hair really blonde, though? It seems to me that Selyse's wasn't and it got me thinking it was actually some kind of decoloration due to the grayscale. And yes, I also like them showing Stannis' more human side.

I think this was the first time we hear Hound's real name, Sandor, on the show.

Dead babies in the jars - well I've seen the pictures before, and I was dreading this bit ,but it turned out to be not so bad after all. I wonder how you people propose to replace the leeches with them - taking them out of the jars and burn..eww...too gross, would they show that on TV?

I never noticed them not naming Sandor in the show. (But then, I never noticed Selmy being absent from the small council or the Dragons not being named)

We may not see them burn, but we will learn about it. It would be interesting to see the Melissandre-Selyse dinamics when she asks for the babies.

I really liked this episode. They reduced the jumping which makes it definitly more comfortable to watch - and the cuts were better (cutting to Daenerys for instance when Shireen talks about Aegon).

For a moment I did not recognize the Unsullied and it was some kind of (positive) wtf because it seemed as if they were going to show us the story of Aegon's conquest. It created a strong link between both characters.

I'd also like to mention that I still hate Jaime Lannister. I mean, it takes him becoming a cripple to ever even attempt to change his arrogant ways (a fate well deserved for making Bran a cripple) and yet everyone acts like he's this awesome character for attempting to redeem himself a little.

It is more than just changing and becoming a better person. At this point you start to realize how he has been made a villain to the eyes of everyone. In the books, you start to learn his story from his own perspective instead of Ned's. (And he tries really hard to make all Lannisters seem so evil). I loved his scene with Roose. There was true terror on his facewhen he thought Cersei might have died.

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Well, to be fair, her running away was due to Jon's inexperience. I believe he was going to seize her, after missing, but he was slow in reacting, which resulted in her fleeing. To be honest, I think that the whole "missing" thing was meant for us watchers, to make us scream something like "SHIT, HE'S DOING IT!!", just to be relieved immediately afterwards. Or maybe just to scare her off a little bit. I don't know, that scene is a little bit odd, I agree. Anyhow, I think that part of the story makes perfectly stands on its feet. The books were different, but I don't think they were better, in this case (letting Ygritte go was plain dumb, for me). But yes, the show romance feels a bit more like an instant crush than a built up feeling.

It's fairly obvious that he missed on purpose. He was supposed to kill her, but at the last moment, he couldn't do it. His plan was then to take her hostage and go back to the Half Hand, but the wildlings found them first. I can't believe anyone would believe that he tried to kill her and just missed....

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Why have they changed Tormunds character so much? Wheres the humour, the fun, the bullshit stories? There are enough false badasses in this show without the writers trying to force another one through.

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Shortest one hour of my week. Arya & Gendry's, "You would'nt be my family, You would be m'lady" exchange, am I reading it wrong? I felt it was more of a sad note than a romantic notion.

THREE.DEAD.FETUSES floating in jars creeped the hell out of me.

Littlefinger w/ Sansa, creepier than the fetuses, we call him Pedo-Baelish

Overall, can't complain about the show. Just sad that we are halfway through the season and so close to the RW.

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By the way, did Shireen get it right when she pronounced Aegon "Egg-en"? I've always thought of it in my head as "Ay-gone".

Sansa pronounces it that way in the first season. Sweet of Shireen but leave the teaching to Pylos

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It's fairly obvious that he missed on purpose. He was supposed to kill her, but at the last moment, he couldn't do it. His plan was then to take her hostage and go back to the Half Hand, but the wildlings found them first. I can't believe anyone would believe that he tried to kill her and just missed....

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying!

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I'd also like to mention that I still hate Jaime Lannister. I mean, it takes him becoming a cripple to ever even attempt to change his arrogant ways (a fate well deserved for making Bran a cripple) and yet everyone acts like he's this awesome character for attempting to redeem himself a little.

He is an awesome character and I like reading about him, I'll give him that, but yeah, he's still an ass. If he had found Arya after Nymeria had bitten Joffrey, he probably would've killed her, too. He's still fighting for the wrong side and still breaking his vows, the way I see it, he's changed how he feels about what he's doing rather than actually changed what he's doing (I'll fling this child from a trebuchet!) because he can't let go of how others see (and fear) him despite the fact he's changed inside (which is another interesting aspect of his character, btw). He's trying, but if he really wants to redeem himself he should step up and admit his incestuous relationship with his sister, that would do it.

Littlefinger w/ Sansa, creepier than the fetuses, we call him Pedo-Baelish

LOL!

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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He's trying, but if he really wants to redeem himself he should step up and admit his incestuous relationship with his sister, that would do it.

He wants too. He wants to marry Cersei and let everyone know how much he loves her. She doesn't.

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It is more than just changing and becoming a better person. At this point you start to realize how he has been made a villain to the eyes of everyone. In the books, you start to learn his story from his own perspective instead of Ned's. (And he tries really hard to make all Lannisters seem so evil). I loved his scene with Roose. There was true terror on his facewhen he thought Cersei might have died.

He made himself into a villain with his own actions. The whole "Ned Stark already judged me without even asking, so I had to go on a 16 year A-HOLE bender for that reason alone!!" crap just doesn't fly with me. Ned Stark didn't make Jaime into a guy who would throw a 9 year old out of a window to his death. That was all Jaime. Honestly, while reading his POV chapters in the books, I actually started to become irate at GRRM. I could tell that he wanted to make Jaime's story about redeeming his honor, but honestly, if he still had his hand, I don't believe he would have changed much at all.

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Because Charles Dance does such a fantastic job as Tywin and he's so fun to watch, I'm afraid viewers are going to start getting an overly rosy view of him. He's actually a really terrible person who frequently misjudges situations and people. He's a world-class bully and a machiavellian ruler.

Oh, I disagree. I think the portrayal of Tywin is very true to the books; Dance's performance is simply putting a face to the name. Saying that Tywin is a "bully" is not an accurate description of the character given his track record. Yes, he sometimes forces people to do things in HIS best interest, but he also fights people (Tarback's; Catemere's, the Darke's of Duskendale). He is not a man given to empty promises; in fact that Tywin's most notable character trait - if he tells you he is going to do something, he does it. There was a REASON that the people who eventually do business with Tywin did business with him - because they knew they could trust Tywin. As strange as that may seem. Further, Tywin is actually an exceptional good judge of character and his moves in the books (and before the books) show this.

To me, the reason viewers like Tywin is because Tywin is intelligent, savvy, ruthless, and effective. So many characters - in a time ruled by all these attributes - seem to lack many of them.

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Quick change of topic to the Jaime/Ned dynamic.

I find that while other characters are given the always laudable "Get Out of Oath-Breaker-Jail Free Card", Jaime apparently has to stay there until he pulls an Andy Duphrane. I can always understand why Robert and Ned had to rebel, but they were oath breakers. Their oath was to obey their KIng and their KIng commanded them to come to KL to answer for (ludicrously crazy) chargers of treason. So, they know its BS so they rebel. I have no problem with them rebelling, but lets call a spade a spade. They broke their oaths (for exceptionally good reasons because most "oaths" are bullshit to begin with), and I have no problem with that.

But Jaime does and he's scum. Whaaaaaaa????

Jaime also swore an oath to protect the KIng... and defend the realm... and protect the innocent... and obey his father, etc. We've been through all that and there is no need to rehash that. So, when Aerys wants to kill the innocent and murder Tywin, Jaime is faced with Kant's "Conflict of Duties" wherein he is damned if he does and damned if he does not. The problem is that had Jaime chose to do nothing and Aerys immolated the City NOBODY would have blamed Jaime. But fat lotta good that would have done all the dead people in the City! See, that's why being judgmental- like Ned - is AWESOME! You get to live in a world where:

1. You are an oathbreaker;

2. KIng's Landing is NOT burned to the ground because the KIng is a raging lunatic, because

3. ANOTHER GUY does the dirty work of killing the KIng, which leads to (the best part);

4. You get to act all superior and judgmental to the guy who killed the King EVEN THOUGH you were in the process of trying to Kill that same King! Thus...

5. You get to call other people oathbreakers!

Ned Stark: keeping his hands clean of terrible acts while directly benefiting from those terrible acts since 283 AL.

This is why Jaime and Ned work soooooo well- they are the other's doppelganger - each one finds in the other the things they hate MOST about themselves. Jaime hates Ned because Ned is an honorable man and Jaime is less than that. Ned hates Jaime because Jaime killed Aerys, while Ned was in the process of trying to kill Aerys. Ned sees in Jaime all the things he hates about himself. Both have intense feelings for their sisters; both men serve the realm; both men wish to be left alone; both men are deadly; both men are relatively simple; both men HATE explaining themselves.

To that end, Jaime's duality with Ned is a constant theme, ultimately unlocked by Jaime later in the books. However, I find that cycle compelling. And the show brought it back a great deal in this episode.

Which leads me to this: How come everyone gives Selmy a free pass? Selmy's oath of loyalty to Aerys passed- immediately mind you - to Viserys at the moment Aerys was slain. There is no "gap" where Selmy gets to decide whether or not his loyalty should be suspended. He's oath is to THAT family and NOT to Robert. But Selmy chooses Robert (for VERY GOOD reasons) and he continues on (until... he decides he needs another Targ to serve... imagine that...). Selmy= honorable; Jaime = dishonorable.

Come again? Selmy should have- out of duty and honor and all the other things Ned Stark loves to chirp about - recovered from his wounds and immediately attempted to escape ad begin serving Viserys. He instead changed sides (or cloaks, really) and nobody bats an eyelash.

So Ned... loves Selmy! So does Jaime, which is another commonality. And the audinace loves Selmy. BUt Selmy hates Jaime because Jaime betrayed the Targs.

At a certain point we all have to admit one thing: if you are clever enough and circumspect enough and cunning enough, you can find a reason to disobey, ignore or supersede any oath. Ned and Robert found a way; so did Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn and Stannis Baratheon (and none of them were charged with treason) Same goes for Barristan Selmy.

But if you are Jaime? Well, sorry buddy, you committed the unpardonable sin of killing somebody everyone else was trying to kill. And thus...

... in ancient nomad tribes it was customary for the tribe to find an animal- a sheep or a goat - and when the bad acts of the tribe got too great they would take this animal and everyone in the tribe would say the acts they had done wrong and put something on this animal's back. Once EVERYONE in the tribe had done that, they would send the animal out into the elements to die of starvation or thirst, but with every sin of the tribe on its back so that while it suffered for the sins of the tribe, the tribe felt vindicated, pure, and good.

Its where we get the term "scapegoating." Thus- for Ned, and Selmy, and Stannis and Tully etc etc etc HE is the oathbreaker- not them! They have reasons and excuses and clever and pithy sayings and ideas etc etc etc.

So they send him out into the elements so he can die and they can all feel good.

Edited by Rockroi

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He made himself into a villain with his own actions. The whole "Ned Stark already judged me without even asking, so I had to go on a 16 year A-HOLE bender for that reason alone!!" crap just doesn't fly with me. Ned Stark didn't make Jaime into a guy who would throw a 9 year old out of a window to his death. That was all Jaime. Honestly, while reading his POV chapters in the books, I actually started to become irate at GRRM. I could tell that he wanted to make Jaime's story about redeeming his honor, but honestly, if he still had his hand, I don't believe he would have changed much at all.

Jaime was, is and forever will be, an asshole, there's no denying that. What ASoS and Season 3 does is to show that he's not a psychopath (which at least I believed up to that point).

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Yeah, I forgot to mention the fact that he was a Kingsguard who was having sex with the Queen..... his twin sister! Yep, you guys are right... he's just SooOOooo lovable! :bang:

:)

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By the way, did Shireen get it right when she pronounced Aegon "Egg-en"? I've always thought of it in my head as "Ay-gone".

I think she did. He is given the nickname "Egg" in the Hedge Knight stories.

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He made himself into a villain with his own actions. The whole "Ned Stark already judged me without even asking, so I had to go on a 16 year A-HOLE bender for that reason alone!!" crap just doesn't fly with me. Ned Stark didn't make Jaime into a guy who would throw a 9 year old out of a window to his death. That was all Jaime. Honestly, while reading his POV chapters in the books, I actually started to become irate at GRRM. I could tell that he wanted to make Jaime's story about redeeming his honor, but honestly, if he still had his hand, I don't believe he would have changed much at all.

Ok, maybe I didn't express myself correctly. (English is not my first language) In the first book/season you get the impression that Jaime is a ruthless, power-hungry character and you get a very biased impression of him. I see his season 3 arc more of a change of that impression than a true redemption. You understand him better, you understand he is a person who has done awful things for the people he loves (especially Cersei) and would them again. I am not saying he is justified, but it gives him a great deal of humanity.

ETA:

Yeah, I forgot to mention the fact that he was a Kingsguard who was having sex with the Queen..... his twin sister! Yep, you guys are right... he's just SooOOooo lovable! :bang:

:)

Where is the moral problem of mutual incestuous love? And besides, nobody complains about Loras, a Kingsguard who was having sex with the King, his brother-in-law.

Edited by Valonqar_

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I think she did. He is given the nickname "Egg" in the Hedge Knight stories.

Yes, that's a good point. Although, that's a different Aegon. She was referencing Aegon I and that is Aegon V (I think), but that's not really all that relevant.

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@

The Rock That Roared

The fact is, Ned Stark was an honorable man. He was murdered because he decided to do the honorable thing and give Cersei a chance to leave the capital before he told Robert about her incest with Jaime. He knew that it would mean their lives and he wanted to give them a chance to survive. Jaime, on the other hand, threw Ned's son from a window without a second thought. That alone should tell you all you ever need to know about how different they were from one another.

As far as Lannisters go, Tyrion seems to be the only one with true honor.

Edited by Versiroth

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By the way, did Shireen get it right when she pronounced Aegon "Egg-en"? I've always thought of it in my head as "Ay-gone".

Yes she got it right. There's a reason that Aegon is shorted to Egg you know...

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Awesome, awesome episode. Almost every scene was perfectly acted. Praise be to the duel and the bathub scene, but actually my favourite is the ending sequence. Tyrion's ''I was wed'' is perfectly delivered, and the show now makes a good job of showing that, as awesome and intelligent as he is, Tywin is also a collossal asshole. After Mr. Tell-family-secrets-to-my-cupbearer-whos-totally-not-a-potentially-valuable-highborn-hostage, it's a welsome sight. Seen Cercei squirm and shout was gratifying.

Shireen is also adorable, the Greyscale makeup is very convincing. Slight worry though; Shireen Baratheon, trueborn as she is, had blond hair. I repeat: blond Baratheon. What's up with that?

I understand that Selyse is not quite there, but keeping her foetuses in Venture Brothers-like tanks? That was... unexpected. Still, I loved Stannis's interactions with his families. He's obviously at a total loss with them.

For those who complain about the Loras scene, it's not like he declared undying love a second time. He still has a sex drive is all, and it's been at least half a year since Renly died so let's give him a pass.

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