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[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion

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Each to their own, but emo pretty much sums up Jon to me until he gets back to the Wall (even then it barely diminishes) so I'm fine with this portrayal of him

Precisely, I think Kit is doing a very good job. Jon is emo. He doesn't become a man till he becomes comander. He has a long way to go.

Why can't people understand that human beings learn from their experiences if they aren't as dumb as rocks and it takes experience and time to do that? It would be just nuts to have Jon pop out of the womb all "Take me to the Night's Watch. I'm not afraid of anything." The character in the books is only about 16, I think.

Just out of curiosity what evidence/scenes in the tv series have lead you to suspect she's a spy? I just want to know because i'm starting to suspect the same thing and I wanna see if ppl are getting the same outlook on certain scenes involving her that I am.

I do not by she is a spy. I don't understand this change from the books, but there is so much plotting going on it is hard to figure who might be motivated to do what undercover.

Talisa is anti war and something she does regarding that may contribute to Rob's undoing.

I think some board members go overboard with trying to uncover webs of intrigue. And I like her although we don't know her all too well.

Roose fed the marriage of RandT and the killing of the Stark boys at Winterfell to Tywin. Ramsey has told his father the truth and Roose passed on the lie about the Stark boys.

We know people are looking for Bran and Richon in the North. Or we find out soon when they meet up with a mountain man. The question is: are the men good northmen or are they Ramsey men who have found out that the kids are not dead. He would surely kill them for fun.

One would think that the motivation for many characters is the completed distruction of the Stark line.

It is puzzling to think why this family seems to be the central target for no clear reason

R

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I wish I would have thought of it myself, but someone here linked a really cool video that pieces it all together. Until I saw the video, I was just taking everything at face value. See what you think after watching it and report back...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jsTVnZm9hFg

Wow! Thank you for sharing that. I agree with whatever poster said that Robb has enough tragedy so can't he have true love before he dies, but at the same time, that video is pretty compelling. I'm not 100% convinced, but if she does prove to be a spy at least I won't be surprised.

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Gods, I hope not. I don't want the producers to take a side on Shae being in Tywin's bed.

I would rather the producers had made Shae's character ambiguous from the beginning; she seems too sincere to suddenly get up there and humiliate him during the trial convincingly, then suddenly appear in a certain person's bed.. Unless she's the best liar in the world, but it would be too cheesy for the show to have two very similar betrayals that come out of left field... Shae and Talisa...

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Yes, actually.. isn't this how Jorah is outed? He was there, correct? So, he lied to Jorah about knowing?

He wasn't there in the show, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know. There are building up a tension between Selmy and Jorah for a reason.

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I would rather the producers had made Shae's character ambiguous from the beginning; she seems too sincere to suddenly get up there and humiliate him during the trial convincingly, then suddenly appear in a certain person's bed.. Unless she's the best liar in the world, but it would be too cheesy for the show to have two very similar betrayals that come out of left field... Shae and Talisa...

Well Talisa most likely isn't a spy, so that takes care of that. I also think they have planted the seeds of jealousy in Shae when they showed her reaction to Tyrion calling Sansa pretty. It may have been in jest, but she will not joking when Tyrion has to marry Sansa if she really does love him. She'll be irate.

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Yes, actually.. isn't this how Jorah is outed? He was there, correct? So, he lied to Jorah about knowing?

I don't recall him being there. In that scene everyone but Ned agrees to kill her - Littlefinger, Pycelle, Varys, Robert. Barristan wasn't in on that conversation.

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I loved the Robb & Catlyn scenes. Cat is looking more and more like

un-meow

and Robb's no-mercy execution has shades of Joffrey.

I think Robb's decision had a ring of justice to it even if it was against the advice of his counselors. He is contemplating the murder of children after all.

Precisely, I think Kit is doing a very good job. Jon is emo. He doesn't become a man till he becomes comander. He has a long way to go.

Why can't people understand that human beings learn from their experiences if they aren't as dumb as rocks and it takes experience and time to do that? It would be just nuts to have Jon pop out of the womb all "Take me to the Night's Watch. I'm not afraid of anything." The character in the books is only about 16, I think.

I do not by she is a spy. I don't understand this change from the books, but there is so much plotting going on it is hard to figure who might be motivated to do what undercover.

Talisa is anti war and something she does regarding that may contribute to Rob's undoing.

I think some board members go overboard with trying to uncover webs of intrigue. And I like her although we don't know her all too well.

R

I also don't believe she is a spy. They were forced to change Robb's marriage story because the actor is at least a decade older than book Robb. Book Robb's story is about the follies of youth. Show Robb's folly is that he married for love when he was pledged to another. It will be enough that that decision in itself will lead to his death and that of his wife. It will also be convenient to kill Talisa at the RW rather than keeping her around in some form. Even in hostage form, the series will soon be too big for such loose ends.

I would rather the producers had made Shae's character ambiguous from the beginning; she seems too sincere to suddenly get up there and humiliate him during the trial convincingly, then suddenly appear in a certain person's bed.. Unless she's the best liar in the world, but it would be too cheesy for the show to have two very similar betrayals that come out of left field... Shae and Talisa...

I think they'll ease in tensions through the Sansa marriage and make it more like jealousy rather than Book Shae's shallowness, self interest and vanity. Not sure how I feel about it. As Varys said, Tyrion knew what she was in the books but was too blind to see it out of wishful thinking. In that way he overreacted to a "betrayal" that really wasn't any worse than Bronn's defection. He probably would have been inclined to agree with this if his father hadn't factored into it. If her role in the show is to betray him out of some sort of jealousy it might mess that dynamic up.

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Of course Robb's decision was the just thing to do. You don't excuse murder because it was commited by a man you need. That's Tywin-style, not Ned Stark style.

The manner in which he goes about it and the timing were pretty bad but it was the just thing to do.

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How do you figure? Loras is not a POV, we don't truly know his character other than him being full of himself, naive and gay. So, maybe the show Loras doesn't live up to how you've pieced him together in your mind, but he is just being fleshed out more in the show and also taking on the roles of multiple Tyrells to avoid confusion for TV viewers.

Exactly. And even with all the changes and cuts my husband (a non reader) is like "Who is that guy again?" and he barely remembers Renly until I mention the shadow baby. Not everyone has the memory of people here on the forums (nor do they talk about and rewatch/reread over and over). The show has a balancing act of trying to make the reader fans happy and still have the tv viewers understand what is going on.

All in all, LOVED this episode and how so many scenes were almost verbatim from the book. Incredible books complemented by incredible script writing, actors, and supporting staff on the show. My favourite show of all time. :bowdown:

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i really loved this episode they kept all the good stuff real loyal to the book, also the new stuff was pretty good too, selyse and the fetuses, shireen and davos <3<3<3<3<3<3<3 shireen in general was great , and patchfaces songs mmmgood! i was quite pleased with the cave scene, though their story as been super rushed and i dont think the viewers will fully understand their closeness, i hope they get more time together soon. Tywin/Tyrion/Cercei scene was pure gold!

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I wish I would have thought of it myself, but someone here linked a really cool video that pieces it all together. Until I saw the video, I was just taking everything at face value. See what you think after watching it and report back...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jsTVnZm9hFg

Wow that video was great and does make some very good points about her being a spy that I didn't connect before. Btw I laughed so hard at the part about Roose Bolton not giving a shit about what she is lol.

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Wow that video was great and does make some very good points about her being a spy that I didn't connect before. Btw I laughed so hard at the part about Roose Bolton not giving a shit about what she is lol.

i laughed so hard at "swish" BAHAHAHA

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i laughed so hard at "swish" BAHAHAHA

What makes it so funny is that I could definitely see Roose in that sort of situation if it would have happened exactly like that in the books and really not give a shit haha.

Edited by Jon Icefyre

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Is the KG oath to the family or is it to the position? There's obviously the conflict during the rebellion, but after the person in place has changed, does the KG owe allegiance to the prior king or new?

For starters, the KG oath absolutely extends to the family. We know this from the Dunk and Egg novella, Hedge Knight. This is also why Selmy, Prince Lywen and Jon Darry are with Rhaegar at the Trident and why Dayne, Hightower and Whent are at the ToJ. Everywhere but next to Aerys.

And as far as "Well, what happens if the King dies, and there is a rebellion and (insert convoluted series of events that, if you look at it crooked while squinting it kinda sort of looks like its okay to ABANDON THE RIGHTFUL KING whenever you please)... blah blah blah... DOES. NOT. MATTER. Selmy swore and oath to Robert and that loyalty passes to Joff; Joff dismisses Selmy from his service, that is not some sort of carte blanche to wage war on the realm and support its rightful enemies. Its not as if when he resigns there is some fine print that says "And now you may leave here and serve whomever you like, including the sole surviving heir of Arys Targaryen II." He's breaking an oath. So, either Selmy broke the oath when he transferred his loyalty from Aerys to Viserys. (just so we are clear- this happened. Visery was the rightful KIng at the instant Aerys died. How come its cool and honorable and just for Ser Arthur Dayne et all to defend at the ToJ, but somehow Slemy gets to pick and choose just when his oath cares about and nobody gets bent out of shape?).

That's the problem- just WHEN did Selmy betray his oath? He definitely violated it when he joined Robert (just as Dayne, Hightower and Whent had not). He then violated his oath of loyalty to the Baratheon dynasty (whether he was KG or not).

Now, to me, its meaningless. The realm had two maniacs as Kings and he gets to choose- as a human being with free will etc - what he will do and how he will do it. Its easier- and far more convenient- for a man to turn off his reason and accountability centers and just say "Hmmm... that guy just murdered a whole bunch of people, but golly gee whiz I swore this oath that said I would protect that murdering asshole... so what's a man to do?"

This is why I cannot blame Selmy for refusing to serve Joff, but its also why I cannot condemn Jaime for slaying Aerys. The reality is that oaths and promises cannot extinguish the propensity to be decent and stop injustice, pain, slaughter, murder and vain cruelty.

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Of course Robb's decision was the just thing to do. You don't excuse murder because it was commited by a man you need. That's Tywin-style, not Ned Stark style.

The manner in which he goes about it and the timing were pretty bad but it was the just thing to do.

I agree. Murdering children, prisoners no less, is inexcusable.

I think that Robb is coming of as more likable this season, will be sad to see him go. That beheading scene was amazing, Richard Madden is really stepping up his game.

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Good episode. Not the excellent one, but good enough.

Most of it was very good : I actually liked the portray of Baratheon family. Tara Fitzgerald portrayed Selyse (as a dark, half mad woman) very well, although that fetuses thing was maybe a little too much for my taste. But OK, no big deal.

A little Kerry Ingram (Sheeren) was very cute, and Stephen Dillane (Stannis) is a genius! He caught an essence of Stannis's character perfectly, I would say. All in all, wonderful cast at Dragonstone.

The other scenes were also very good : bath tub, Tyrion and Lady Olena, Tywin and "parental issues" at the end...I liked the Bolton guy as well ( I don't know his name). I had some doubts about him, but he managed to be creepy on that strange, very calm way. I always thought that Bolton's character has enough material to become a legendary villain - calm, calculated, cruel and utterly dreadful - if played well.So, I'm cheering for this guy.

But, few things bothered me. First, the Loras scene. People already said that it was "character assassination" and I agree.

Second, Jon Snow story. In the last season, it was butchered, but now, it becomes a massacre. I'm thrilled with naked Rose Leslie, off course , and normally, I would not care for a connotation just to see her naked - but not now. For crying at loud, that should be a whole story, step - by - step progressing to sex and love , with some character changing for Jon Snow. And now...It looks like a totally random sex. Like "Why not?"

They did that with Qhorin ( at least I didn't get that Qhorin ordered him to "do whatever they ask you to do "- and that is significant part of whole "joining the wildllngs" story ) and they did it again. I get the idea of simplification, but this is too much.

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I wish I would have thought of it myself, but someone here linked a really cool video that pieces it all together. Until I saw the video, I was just taking everything at face value. See what you think after watching it and report back...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jsTVnZm9hFg

That is officially the best GoT related youtube video i've seen in ages! I'm ashamed to say i did not catch any of this prior to watching the video. And it makes much more sense! I was always a bit dissatisfied with the Talisa angle, but now i seem to understand why the writers took this route. Brilliant.

I feel now I am finally convinced that they've made Talisa into a spy. Firstly, it replaces the betrayal of Jeyne's mother in the books, and shifts the betrayal to Talisa. Same result, more heart break.

And, of course, Robb will understand his betrayal at the red wedding, right before Bolton sticks the dagger in. Yes, she will attend with him, and when he reaches for her, crossbow bolt in his back, she will stand just behind Bolton, somber look on her face, and watch him get killed as he stares at her in all his heartbroken hotness. In fact, if Talisa IS NOT a spy, I will be really disappointed!!

I also think this Talisa reveal will also take the place of the Shae betrayal. I do think Shae will be forced to speak at the trial, but against her wishes. I believe they will set up the Shae storyline to be a sort of tragic misunderstanding. She really cared for Tyrion, but was set up, blackmailed and threatened. When Tyrion finds her, she tries to explain, but Tyrion, in his rage, won't believe her.. then it's all... "hands of cold are always cold... but a woman's hands are warm..."

I think making Shae become a better person in the show would be detrimental to the shows aspirations, because all said and done, Peter Dinklage is the shows frontrunner and one of the most loved characters by fans of the show, so any betrayals and backstabbing that happens to him will have that much more effect on the viewers, and i'm sure D&D know that too well.

But the way you scripted the RW for the show there, you sir/madam, made my day.

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