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[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion

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Excellent episode!

Loved:

  1. NCW all the way! The look on his face when Roose teased him about Cersei's status was awesome and the way he collapsed once he knew she was safe--terrific! I just wish his hair hadn't covered his face so we could see his expression better. Glad they kept one of my favorite Jaime lines: "I'll scream...I'll scream loudly"--it's so typical of Jaime's courage. Even with all his faults, he's definitely brave.
  2. Arya and "I'll be your family" (lump in my throat) and the moment she tried to attack the hound
  3. The scene with Tywin, Cersei, and Tyrion--particularly the way the look on Cersei's face changed from a smirk to horror when she realized that she was to be married off too. Poor Cersei! Willas Tyrell was bad enough, but Loras?! Also, I'm not sure how marrying a known gay man would quell the rumors about her affair with Jaime...
  4. Seeing Jon Snow smile for the first time since he went to the wall!
  5. Grey Worm. Not what I imagined, but he's better.
  6. Jorah and Barristan's chat -- wanting to work for someone in whom he believes
  7. Murder of the Lannister boys -- not that I liked it, but it was very well done.
  8. Under the sea-- creepy version by Shireen -- this is the way an end credit song should be!

Not so thrilled about:

  1. The lack of people who like Robb as their leader (Greatjon, the Mormont ladies, etc.)
  2. Talisa advising Robb. I get that they want to give her a bigger part than Jeyne, but I always liked that Jeyne seemed like nothing special, but showed her courage in the meeting with Jaime. Anyway, I've come to terms with this, but would have preferred Catelyn warning him about the impact of his actions against Karstark. She would have a better knowledge of alliances, etc. than Talisa.
  3. Robb's apparent lack of concern that he betrayed Lord Frey and now needs him again...but we may see more of that next week. He's Ned's son, he should feel guiltier about breaking his agreement.
  4. Lack of Patchface. I liked his prophetic songs and his touching devotion to Shireen. I'm guessing this means that Jinglebell and Moonboy will be no-shows too. It's a pity, because I think it's important to see how Westeros society treated people with mental development problems and such. Also, without Moonboy, we're missing a key element of Jaime's chant...
  5. Loras jumping in bed with that guy. I don't expect him never to have sex again, but he doesn't appear to have mourned Renly at all. Perhaps they are changing the character so that Renly was a stepping stone to power for his family, not love. wouldn't object to that change, as it gives Loras more to do, but this felt cheap.
  6. Sansa seeming to enjoy Littlefinger's attentions. It's not unusual for a young girl to enjoy seeing the power she's beginning to have over men, but ewwww!

Other thoughts:

When Tywin is telling Cersei that she must remarry to stop the rumors about her, I thought it was interesting that he didn't say, "about you AND JAIME". As usual, the favorite child is given a pass!

When Robb was considering executing Karstark vs. keeping him hostage, I suddenly got a flashback to Joffrey's announcement about why he couldn't just send Ned to the Night's Watch and executed him. Never picked up on the parallel while reading the books.

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When Tywin is telling Cersei that she must remarry to stop the rumors about her, I thought it was interesting that he didn't say, "about you AND JAIME". As usual, the favorite child is given a pass!

Well to be fair Tywin hasn't seen Jamie in awhile. Throughout the series there's been at least one scene where Tywin rips into each of his kids individually. There was that one scene in season 1 where Tywin rips into Jamie pretty hard before giving him some final words of encouragement. This is the first season where Tywin really has had a chance to talk to Cersei about things face to face where as he's been rippin on Tyrion since season 1, so Cersei is getting her just desserts right now. With all that being said, I admit it's still pretty clear that tv Tywin probably favors Jamie just as much as book Tywin does.

Edited by Jon Icefyre

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Okay...Selyse's jar collection...WTF?!?!?!

Okay...Selyse's jar collection...WTF?!?!?!

The writer said he put it in for shock value, they try and one up each other.

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Did anyone else get a boner from Roose Bolton's mind game with Jaime?

I enjoyed it. Very much in character for Roose, who is definitely cruel in the way he strings people along

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Excellent episode!

Loved:

  1. NCW all the way! The look on his face when Roose teased him about Cersei's status was awesome and the way he collapsed once he knew she was safe--terrific! I just wish his hair hadn't covered his face so we could see his expression better. Glad they kept one of my favorite Jaime lines: "I'll scream...I'll scream loudly"--it's so typical of Jaime's courage. Even with all his faults, he's definitely brave.

  2. Arya and "I'll be your family" (lump in my throat) and the moment she tried to attack the hound

  3. The scene with Tywin, Cersei, and Tyrion--particularly the way the look on Cersei's face changed from a smirk to horror when she realized that she was to be married off too. Poor Cersei! Willas Tyrell was bad enough, but Loras?! Also, I'm not sure how marrying a known gay man would quell the rumors about her affair with Jaime...

  4. Seeing Jon Snow smile for the first time since he went to the wall!

  5. Grey Worm. Not what I imagined, but he's better.

  6. Jorah and Barristan's chat -- wanting to work for someone in whom he believes

  7. Murder of the Lannister boys -- not that I liked it, but it was very well done.

  8. Under the sea-- creepy version by Shireen -- this is the way an end credit song should be!

Not so thrilled about:

  1. The lack of people who like Robb as their leader (Greatjon, the Mormont ladies, etc.)

  2. Talisa advising Robb. I get that they want to give her a bigger part than Jeyne, but I always liked that Jeyne seemed like nothing special, but showed her courage in the meeting with Jaime. Anyway, I've come to terms with this, but would have preferred Catelyn warning him about the impact of his actions against Karstark. She would have a better knowledge of alliances, etc. than Talisa.

  3. Robb's apparent lack of concern that he betrayed Lord Frey and now needs him again...but we may see more of that next week. He's Ned's son, he should feel guiltier about breaking his agreement.

  4. Lack of Patchface. I liked his prophetic songs and his touching devotion to Shireen. I'm guessing this means that Jinglebell and Moonboy will be no-shows too. It's a pity, because I think it's important to see how Westeros society treated people with mental development problems and such. Also, without Moonboy, we're missing a key element of Jaime's chant...

  5. Loras jumping in bed with that guy. I don't expect him never to have sex again, but he doesn't appear to have mourned Renly at all. Perhaps they are changing the character so that Renly was a stepping stone to power for his family, not love. wouldn't object to that change, as it gives Loras more to do, but this felt cheap.

  6. Sansa seeming to enjoy Littlefinger's attentions. It's not unusual for a young girl to enjoy seeing the power she's beginning to have over men, but ewwww!

Other thoughts:

When Tywin is telling Cersei that she must remarry to stop the rumors about her, I thought it was interesting that he didn't say, "about you AND JAIME". As usual, the favorite child is given a pass!

When Robb was considering executing Karstark vs. keeping him hostage, I suddenly got a flashback to Joffrey's announcement about why he couldn't just send Ned to the Night's Watch and executed him. Never picked up on the parallel while reading the books.

Number 4 about Patchface is interesting. It seems on these forums that people think Patchface is more than we know so far. He does have a certain prophetic aura about him. So, do the show runners know things that the readers don't? Have they asked GRRM who plays an important role later on in the story, or are they going rogue? The show obviously deviates from the books quite a bit, but there is no way they could leave out major plot points. Patchface must not be anything more than an obtuse riddle without answer. Unless the show is on the super inside with regard to the plan, or they think they can write around it..

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i don't know if it is already discussed but was anyone bothered by the fact that both Varys and the Tyrells know that LF is planning to take Sansa with him? i mean, when he actually takes her, her whereabouts won't be a mystery.

Edited by the hound of sansa

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i don't know if it already discussed but was anyone bothered by the fact that both Varys and the Tyrells know that LF is planning to take Sansa with him? i mean, when he actually takes her, her whereabouts won't be a mystery.

It will because he will be already gone a long time. She disappears from the PW and everyone thinks that LF is already at the Eyrie so they don't put two and two together.

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Number 4 about Patchface is interesting. It seems on these forums that people think Patchface is more than we know so far. He does have a certain prophetic aura about him. So, do the show runners know things that the readers don't?

In the "Game of Owns" podcast interview, Bryan Cogman (sp?) mentions that they've left themselves an out with Patchface - they could still bring him in later. Much like they apparently decided to do with Shireen, I suppose: remember that Melisandre had the line about Stannis's wife only giving him stillborns and death, which implied there were no living children, but the "death" part could also refer to Shireen's greyscale.

And yes, I'm really bothered by Littlefinger in the show: he's just so obviously plotting that in show-world it'd seem like he'd be suspected for playing a part in everything that happens. I've always thought he should look and behave more like an utterly forgettable bureaucrat, rather than the goateed transparently Machiavellian figure he is in the show. He may not actually say "Bwah hah hah! You've fallen into my cunning trap!" in every conversation, but his face pretty much does, and you'd think by this point nobody would trust him with anything ever.

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In the "Game of Owns" podcast interview, Bryan Cogman (sp?) mentions that they've left themselves an out with Patchface - they could still bring him in later. Much like they apparently decided to do with Shireen, I suppose: remember that Melisandre had the line about Stannis's wife only giving him stillborns and death, which implied there were no living children, but the "death" part could also refer to Shireen's greyscale.

Actually, Melisandre spoke about Selyse not giving Stannis sons, not children in general. Which is why they were able to have Shireen this season: Stannis has no sons, but he does have a daughter!

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i don't know if it is already discussed but was anyone bothered by the fact that both Varys and the Tyrells know that LF is planning to take Sansa with him? i mean, when he actually takes her, her whereabouts won't be a mystery.

OK, here are my thoughts on this. Littlefinger will leave without taking Sansa, since clearly he will be leaving for the Vale before Joffrey's marriage. At this point, Varys and whoever could believe that Littlefinger either did NOT intend to take Sansa, or just didn't care to.

The actor playing Dontos said he was going to return, and someone said D&D also stated he would return. After Littlefinger leaves, Dontos approaches Sansa and it plays out like it did in the books.

Remember shortly after Sansa disappears, Varys does as well. Most likely even if he does suspect/know Littlefinger has her, he would have no reason to tell anyone who was looking for her. And I doubt he would anyway.

EDIT: I thought it was implied Olenna and Littlefinger planned Joffrey's death and Sansa's escape together.

Edited by The Duke of J-Town

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OK, here are my thoughts on this. Littlefinger will leave without taking Sansa, since clearly he will be leaving for the Vale before Joffrey's marriage. At this point, Varys and whoever could believe that Littlefinger either did NOT intend to take Sansa, or just didn't care to.

The actor playing Dontos said he was going to return, and someone said D&D also stated he would return. After Littlefinger leaves, Dontos approaches Sansa and it plays out like it did in the books.

Remember shortly after Sansa disappears, Varys does as well. Most likely even if he does suspect/know Littlefinger has her, he would have no reason to tell anyone who was looking for her. And I doubt he would anyway.

EDIT: I thought it was implied Olenna and Littlefinger planned Joffrey's death and Sansa's escape together.

Ya honestly they will probably just assume Tywin Lannister spoiled Littlefinger's plans for Sansa by marrying her to Tyrion. Afterall they obviously don't know about how Littlefinger plans to conceal Sansa's identity when she gets to the Vale.

Edited by Jon Icefyre

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In the "Game of Owns" podcast interview, Bryan Cogman (sp?) mentions that they've left themselves an out with Patchface - they could still bring him in later. Much like they apparently decided to do with Shireen, I suppose: remember that Melisandre had the line about Stannis's wife only giving him stillborns and death, which implied there were no living children, but the "death" part could also refer to Shireen's greyscale.

And yes, I'm really bothered by Littlefinger in the show: he's just so obviously plotting that in show-world it'd seem like he'd be suspected for playing a part in everything that happens. I've always thought he should look and behave more like an utterly forgettable bureaucrat, rather than the goateed transparently Machiavellian figure he is in the show. He may not actually say "Bwah hah hah! You've fallen into my cunning trap!" in every conversation, but his face pretty much does, and you'd think by this point nobody would trust him with anything ever.

Cool about Patchface! I guess they've already demonstrated that--bringing the Reeds into the story a little later, bringing Ramsay in during S3 and not S2. It probably helps them focus casting efforts, pay less for actors, etc.

Agree with you about LF. I like the actor, but he should be someone that the king/hands find useful for generating money, but otherwise don't take as a threat. He keeps his head down and plots quietly...

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The duel between Beric Dondarrion and the Hound was fun to watch, but I had one big problem with it. Both were wearing shields and hardly used them. If you've got a shield, you use it to block your opponent's sword, freeing your own sword to be a completely offensive weapon. In this duel, most of the time they were using their swords to parry. I'm sure the choreographers knew that this was unrealistic, but decided to give the audience what it wanted and expected, lots of edge on edge blade clashing.

In my opinion, the best swordfight in GoT so far has been the one between Jaime and Ned Stark in Season 1

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Yes, I've read the books (although I must confess they do sort of blur together except for the unforgettable impression that A Feast for Crows sucks.) Anyway, I guess I sort of knew that the primary point of a Tyrion-Sansa marriage would be a male heir but since that kid wouldn't be able to articulate his claim to the North for 10-15 years it seems like a very long time to wait for Tywin, who may not even be alive by then. I do agree with you that Tywin does play "the long game" very well.

It's a piece in place just in case. He has no way of knowing that Stark heirs are all over the place, not to mention northerners with ambition

Tywin's motivation is petty enough to partly offset his skill

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Is it just me, or is Littlefinger also a lot less witty in the show than in the books?

I'm still not sure where they're going with Stannis; but so far I still prefer book-Stannis.

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Gendry will be Melisandres other way of getting kings blood. She will sacrifice him, as she did edric storm in the books. Hate to ruin your love story.

Davos has saved Gendry just as expected

What makes you think they want to keep Robb on screen?? Did they give him that much material this season?? not really. Actually I am fairly sure they I are excited to do the RW in all its glory.

Robb is the hunk of choice for many. They are dragging his story out as long as possible. Even Kit Harrington has a man crush on Rob.

in response to my predictions above

I can totally see all that happening. Bravo.

thank you

And Maisie has admitted that her costar is the hottest guy on the scene for her. Poor Maisie, she got trapped into doing that here:

Slow down everyone. She is 16 now and he is 25 in real life, so her real crush is totally normal and in a couple of years, they would be just fine on or off screen.

Also, her director told her to say her line to Gendry as if she loves him and they used that cut (I lost the link).

To repeat: Arya in the show is too young emotionally to have a crush on Gendry, but after being separated for a while he is with Mel and Stannis and Davos, and possibly on the wall, Gendry will have agency, now knows he is a king's son and I can see Jon sending him to Bravos to find Arya after he tells Jon that she is alive he knows her and can guess where she might be. Jaquen gave her the coin when she was with Gendry. No matter. I can see Arya meeting up with Dany and Gendry also in Essos as everyone searches for everyone. Gendry is destined to be a great warrior like his father although I don't think he is going to lead an army. His inherited talents will just come out. Stannis might recognize that it is better to use him as a warrior then as a blood sacrifice. Also, seeing Mel naked with him is bound to send up some jealousy which would be reason enough to send Gendry off somewhere. There are a lot of possibilities, but I can see Arya riding one of those Dragons easily. Why let the boys and Dany have all the fun?

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