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[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion


Ran
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Tywin wants cersie to wed Loras for the support of highgarden, but as the queen of thorns so thoroughly pointed out, they are already extremely invested in the lannister cause. Seems a bit redundant. Maybe he just want to rid himself of cersies arrogance but you'd think tywin the clever lannister he is would make a better investment with his only daughter. A bid for the support of dorne perhaps. But then again he is clearly no tyrion who is in fact lan the clever reborn

Edited by Edtard
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Great episode that really helped to build and establish the characters.

It's kind of naive to think that Loras wouldn't have had sex with anyone else after Renly's passing. What he says in public and what he does behind closed doors are two different things. Also, sleeping with another person doesn't diminish his love for Renly's memory. I honestly don't think this change was that big of a deal.

I absolutely loved the final scene between the Lannisters. Their family dynamic is one of the best aspects of the series, both books and TV show. I just wonder how the show fans reacted to this. See, when I read this in the book this was actually the first time that I felt a twinge of pity for Cersei. I knew she was an evil shrew, but I don't like seeing any woman being bought and sold like so much chattel. But I think a lot of show fans will see this moment as Cersei getting a bit of a comeuppance for her cruel treatment of Tyrion.

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Hmmm, during the episode I found myself saying "what the hell?" too many times. It always happens at least once when the show deviates from the text in some significant way, but tonight it happened more than I would like to abide. That being said, by the end of the episode I was happy to have seen it. That says something right there, right? Even with the unpredictable changes to the story, the show still manages to be enticing and great to watch.

Breakdown:

I thought tQoT was awesome as usual. After tonight's scene with her and Tyrion, I kind of wish there was more sparring between those two in the books.

Jamie's revealing account of his role at the end of Rob's Rebellion was done pretty well. Great acting, only tainted in my mind through lack of the back story the readers are privy to. As a side note, that scene was a glut(e) of buttocks.

Robb's "revelation" about how to bolster his army by reconciling with the Freys was devastating because we know the result. It was also a great way to help the tv viewer realize later on that the RW was Robb's fault. Since they romanticized his courting of that one girl who isn't in the book, showing him making a decision in a moment of strategic epiphany is a good way to show his flaws.

The Dondarrion v Clegane fight was fine. Didn't find anything to bitch about or to praise really.

Glad Jon and Ygritte got some scenes, but for some reason the show has yet to give Jon the depth I've been hoping for.

Arya's a killer ;)

Also, seeing Jorah Mormont and Barristen Selmy kind of engage in a battle of wits makes me want to hit my brain right in the head. Not exactly sure why.

Anyway, good stuff, but last week was much better in my opinion.

Oh yeah, anytime Dany speaks Valyrian I feel it in my bones. I never really thought about it reading the books, but until we meet Aegon, no other contender for the throne seems as worldly as Dany. Language and travel just make you seem legit as hell. Which is why I wake up every day and look in the mirror and say, "hello", "bonjour", "hola", "ni hao", before easing into my morning robe and perusing the Journal, which is what I call this forum...

Edited by Joey Beers
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Great episode that really helped to build and establish the characters.

It's kind of naive to think that Loras wouldn't have had sex with anyone else after Renly's passing. What he says in public and what he does behind closed doors are two different things. Also, sleeping with another person doesn't diminish his love for Renly's memory. I honestly don't think this change was that big of a deal.

I absolutely loved the final scene between the Lannisters. Their family dynamic is one of the best aspects of the series, both books and TV show. I just wonder how the show fans reacted to this. See, when I read this in the book this was actually the first time that I felt a twinge of pity for Cersei. I knew she was an evil shrew, but I don't like seeing any woman being bought and sold like so much chattel. But I think a lot of show fans will see this moment as Cersei getting a bit of a comeuppance for her cruel treatment of Tyrion.

Did you not feel pity for the Unsullied?

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Tywin wants cersie to wed Loras for the support of highgarden, but as the queen of thorns so thoroughly pointed out, they are already extremely invested in the lannister cause. Seems a bit redundant. Maybe he just want to rid himself of cersies arrogance but you'd think tywin the clever lannister he is would make a better investment with his only daughter. A bid for the support of dorne perhaps. But then again he is clearly no tyrion who is in fact lan the clever reborn

They've all ready bethrothed Myrcella to Trystane Martell for that purpose. I mean the Martells aren't stupid they've heard/know most if not all of the rumors, Myrcella's surname might be Baratheon, but the Martell's along with everyone else in the realm know she represents the Lannisters in terms of an alliance formed through marriage.

Edited by Jon Icefyre
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Shireen was awesome, but Stannis' interaction with her was unintentional comedy.

"yeah so Davos is a traitor and he'll rot in a cell. Oh jeez, lookatthetime I gotta go. Don't touch me bye".

Isn't that the best feature of Stannis in the books? In how he has so many great lines that just come off as unintentional comedy.

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I loved this episode.

Random thoughts:

- Loved the Grey Worm speech. In Valyrian.

- Nice small fan-nod with Shireen's teaching Stannis to read: the first word is Aegon - "the first part, Aeg, sounds like Egg"

- The Petyr/Sansa scene - his creepiness kept making me think of the Eyrie snow-Winterfell scene. Can't wait to see that.

- Jon's confrontation with Orell - he makes fun of Orell's warging, with the what happens to your eagle if I kill you line - nice foreshadowing of the Varamyr ADWD prologue and the question on everyone's mind - does Jon warg into Ghost after his stabbing?

- The Jaime/Brienne bath scene was PERFECT!!!

- Shireen makes me tear up - she is just the cutest!

- Arya/Gendry - heartbreaking. Arya's comments about wishing Ned was alive even if in an Un-Beric state - I may be reading too much into it, but it made me think of both Un-Cat coming up, and Arya and her dealings with death as a FM apprentice.

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Just seen it. Awesome. Loved every second.

Kerry Ingram as Shireen was really, really good. Her interactions with Davos were adorable.

Bath scene was phenomenal. And Maisie was magnificent. Lannisters at the end were awesome too. All the Loras/Littlefinger/Sansa stuff happened so quickly!

Disappointed with Lord's Kiss scene. Only in that I would have liked to see Jon as naked as Ygritte.

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When I turned the episode eon I immediately thought that there would be no way that the show would three-peat; three exceptional episodes in a row. WRONG! Not only was it exceptional, but it may have been the best episode of the season.

What I liked:

The Cave of Fire and Snow: One of my tope-ten scenes is the scene between Ygritte and Jon Snow where they come together and really evolve as a couple. Jon Snow jumps into his life with Ygritte and Yigritte shows real heart and soul; and they both prove they want the other. This scene completely capture that romance and that humanity of the two and it makes you want them to succeed- in everything they do.

The Humanity of Stannis Baratheon:

Lois Griffin: (Seeing her child Stewie with a person tied up and apparently torturing them) STEWIE! What are you doing?

Stewie: We’re playing House (quickly glances at the person he is torturing) Roman Polanski’s house.

-Famil GUy

Watching Stannis try to be a normal person in the face of his... horrifying home life was almost as painful as watching his fleet on fire. However… maybe for the first time… they nailed it. For starters, Stannis regrets some of his decisions, and even regrets betraying his Wife; his wife? Well… she’s a bit … touched? For starters, she is okay with it, second she is enamored by Mel; third she keeps her dead babies. Fourth, she may or may not keep her only child locked up in a tower, which is equal parts good thinking nad fucking terrifying.

And in case you missed it- she keeps the dead bodies of her three still-born babies in floating in green liquid... in her chambers... where she sleeps...

But here’s the thing: she knew how to talk to Stannis. She gets it! And she gets him (I thought it was wonderful when she just called him “Stannis”, and it appeared to disarm him). She wants Stannis to succeed and is standing by him. She completely brushes his guilt aside. All the while she stares at her “boys.” Stannis also gets HER! He genuinely feels bad for her; he GENUINELY sympathies with her; he GENUINELY wants others to respect her- and he wants to give her the respect she deserves, going so far as to ask her permission to see hius daughter.

And all the while we see the pain and misery these people have lived with.

Stannis with his child was, maybe, the best scene with Stannis since he stormed a beach apparently by himself. Shireen’s explosion of unconditional love and affection … FOR STANNIS was as surprising as it was natural. What little girl does not love her daddy? Even if that daddy is the most socially inept and cold-hearted person in the seven kingdoms.

And the fact that that little girl sang that song was… perfect.

The Dog and the Dead Man: I liked the Hound’s redemption. For starters, I liked that that fight was- almost move-for-move – identical to the book and that it had this in-your-face element of death, death death. That was a dangerous fight between dangerous men and they ate the scene up. I also continue to enjoy this reimagined Hound- not the whimpering and angry Hound of the book, but the more ferrel and the more black-humored one.

The Lion, the Wolf, and the Burden of Rule: There are two powers still truly at war: the Lannisters and the Starks. And the episode detailed how the two sides are waging it. I thought Robb acted 100% perfectly and correctly: you cannot allow a lord like Karstark to act out of line like that and expect others to follow. You have to remove that corruption root and stem. So I am a little perplexed if the show is couching Robb’s decision as a mistake; I hope not, when his ACTUAL mistake was to, you know, break his oath.

Meanwhile, back with the sid eiwnning the war, Tywin ahs a family and that family will do exactly as he commands while he slowly “chips away” and Robb Stark by doing nothing. Tywin is playing everyone and its about time Cersei and Tyrion learn to dance along. Everyone played that scene perfectly.

Because ruling comes with a price. Sometimes you have to marry somebody you don't like; sometimes your kids are idiots; and sometimes you have to kill the guy who killed your enemy's children. Because its EASY to criticize, but King's don't criticize. They rule. Robb and Tywin are rulling.

The Lord Commander and the Slaver: I loved the few minutes we got with Dany and her advisors; even Mormont recalling his knighting. And I loved that they kept the Grey Worm scene. I think the show is doing a BETTER job with the Selmy-Mormont relationship than the books, and even shows why Mormont is so distant; Because he’s hiding.

The KIngslayer and the Wench: You kill that. You kill the mad man who wants to burn the city down and you do it as soon as you can. You don’t wait around for others to negotiate; or to fight with honor; or to get the children to safety. No. You kill the pyromancer first and then you kill Aerys the Mad. That’s honor. And it does not matter if Arthur Dayne or Ned Stark think so or not. Because SOMEBODY had to kill Aerys. And Jaime Lannister was the only guy who had the guts to do it. And what was his reward? Scorn.

Because did any of us EVERY think Ned Stark wanted to hear Jaime’s side of the story? Really? I have been saying since I first read SoS that Jaime was right to do what he did and Ned Stark loves judging other people, to the point of absurdity.

And all the while, she is looking at him and her eyes screaming “No….” and the whole while the steam, the steam the steam… smoke smoke smoke.

Kissed by fire….

What I Am On the Fence about:

The Queen of Thorns and Hammy Writing: I like Lady Olenna and I enjoy her scenes in bite sized portions. But … every week it appears to be the same thing: Lady Olenna sits down next to an established character; the established character immediately losses all the intellect, charm, wit and danger they possessed up to the moment they met Lady Olenna and act ham-handed, clumsy, foolish and boarder-line stupid. Started with Sansa, continued with Cersei, reached ridiculous heights with Varys and culminated this week in the show utterly neutering its best character… all to make Olenna seemed smart. This week was the worst because Tyrion is the best character on the show and to make him seem tongue-tied, awkward, clumsy and intimidated by her is utterly out of place.

Again, it’s not that bad; after all, would we want just another terrible character fopr the champions of Westeros to just intellectually beat up? Of course not. At the same time- it would be nice if the characters we knew acted, sounded, spoke, or even seemed like the characters who we thought they were and not card-board cut outs. It seems rather lazy.

What I did not like:

Can’t find anything. And I am STUNNED That for the second week in a row I could not find something I did NOT like.

For three episodes in a row, the show has put up HUGE numbers! Fantastic ability to really integrate the best parts of the books into the show and do it seamlessly.

Now.. can they go four-for-four?

ThHis was the best episode of the season.

Totally agree with everything except about The Queen of Thornes. (Especially the Kingslayer and the Wench. You nailed that!)

Every (adult) smart character (so far, with the exception of Margaery because she knows better), who shares a scene with her, makes the prejudicial mistake of taking her for a doddering old women, when in fact she is the smartest person in the room, with likely a Lisbeth Salander-level photographic memory, who is too old to put up with other people's bullshit. She hasn't the time, nor the patience. And I LOVE HER for that.

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And then there's the Loras scene. That's a shared second place for worst travesty of the show (#1 is the House of the undying, the other #2 is Catelyn's and Talisa's scene about Jon) and its a complete character assassination.

I agree. Its only been about a few months since Renly died. In another way, it only adds to the misconception that gay people are promiscuous.

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I agree. Its only been about a few months since Renly died. In another way, it only adds to the misconception that gay people are promiscuous.

Having sex with one man, months after your lover dies is promiscuous? People have needs you know. He'll have plenty of time to not have sex when he's in the Kingsguard. Anyway, it's not like there was much character to assassinate.

Edited by Joyful Union
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Dillane did some good acting with that one-sided grimace he made while he was dealing with his wife and daughter. Brienne's facial expressions while listening to Jaime's retelling of his greatest moment were poignant.

Ygritte was one hottie truly kissed by fire (and now ice). hahaha. But I was a little confused about how well that cave was lit up with one torch. I could complain about it not being realistic but that's stupid.

I'm totally on the Talisa-honeypot bandwagon. In the books all of the older Westerlings did the same thing, so they're just streamlining it in the show. Sybelle Westerling and her brother Rolph Spicer set her daughter up to seduce Robb (intentionally on her part or not). Pretty much the same thing is happening, just with less complicated characters for the audience to remember.

Roose's delivery of the news from King's Landing was hilarious. Letting Jaime hang their for so long without knowing was cold.

Barristan is stringing Jorah on. He knows Jorah was the one feeding Robert info on Dany. We'll still get the Dany/Jorah rift later on, if not in this season but the next.

I'd almost feel sorry for Cersei the way she's treated by her father, but we've all seen the shady shit she pulls. It was telling to show that Tyrion was the only one to say how straight up cruel it is for them to make Sansa marry in to their family after the way she's been treated by Joffrey and Cersei. And it showed how heartless Tywin is when it comes to promoting his precious family name. Him and Cersei both deserve what happens to them.

Overall awesome episode. They keep getting better.

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