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[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion

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When Cat captured Tyrion, Ned was not imprisoned yet. Cat captured Tyrion because she believed in what Petyr said, that the dagger was Tyrion's.

The point still stands. She captured Tyrion because of what she suspected he had done to Bran. And Bran's fall was again a result of Jaime and Cersei's incest. No incest, no fall, no need to capture Tyrion.

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And if Cat had been smart about it and not charged him the way she did without proper proof, Jaime wouldn't have struck Ned down in King's Landing to make a point, and if Ned hadn't challenged Joffrey's right to the throne he wouldn't have been betrayed and sentenced to death and later beheaded, and if Ned hadn't been beheaded Robb wouldn't have marched on King's Landing.

And if Tywin and Joanna had separated them earlier and brought them up better, it wouldn't have happened either. And if whatever caused them not to hinder their incest in an early stage hadn't happened, it wouldn't have led to the war either. Bla bla bla.

Just sayin'. The war is the result of multiple actions by multiple people.

Again, NONE, I repeat NONE of those things would have happened if not for their incest. If you want to blame Tywin, fine. But you can't say that the incest wasn't the starting ripple effect.

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And if Cat had been smart about it and not charged him the way she did without proper proof, Jaime wouldn't have struck Ned down in King's Landing to make a point, and if Ned hadn't challenged Joffrey's right to the throne he wouldn't have been betrayed and sentenced to death and later beheaded, and if Ned hadn't been beheaded Robb wouldn't have marched on King's Landing.

And if Tywin and Joanna had separated them earlier and brought them up better, it wouldn't have happened either. And if whatever caused them not to hinder their incest in an early stage hadn't happened, it wouldn't have led to the war either. Bla bla bla.

Just sayin'. The war is the result of multiple actions by multiple people.

Exactly! I always find incredibly stupid and ridiculous (and I don't like using this word) when people blame all the bad events in one single character.

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:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

First Cersei wanted to cheat on Robert because Robert was an asshole with her. If Robert would have been a better husband maybe she wouldn't have cheated on him.

Second I don't think Robert would give a fuck about the Night's Watch and the Others. Many people don't believe they exist.

Third Robert and Cersei are both terrible parents, even if they would have had a trueborn child, he would be fucked up.

Cersei already had a relationship with Jaime before the marriage which neither of them would have given up, and definitely not Jaime, you know that as well as I do. Cersei could've had just one of his kids, just one, and it would've been enough to stop this trainwreck from happening.

Robert seems like the guy who would take Ned's (who would've been alive) advice seriously when it concerns the well-being of the North, he definitely likes going to war, and at any rate, the realm would have been more prepared for the others.

Neither Tommen nor Myrcella seem 'fucked up'.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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Her capturing Tyrion caused the Lannisters to go to war, but why did she capture him again? Oh yeah, because Cersei imprisoned Ned. Why did she do that again? Oh yeah, because he found out about her incestual relationship with Jaime/her bastard children.

Jaime's inability to keep it in his pants is the base reason for everything that's happened so far. If he'd have kept it in his pants, then the realm would currently be united under Robert's trueborn Son Joffrey to help the Nights Watch defeat the the Whitewalkers.

Uh you are over simplifying everything and that's boring. Your leaving out a very important cog in the series of events that is not reliant on the incestuous relationship that you claim. Littlefinger falsely implicated the Lannisters in the death of Jon Arryn conving Lysa to tell the Starks. He also falsely implicated Tyrion Lannister as the mastermind of the plot to kill Bran. Littlefinger's ambition is not a result of Jamie and Cercei's incest.

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:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

First Cersei wanted to cheat on Robert because Robert was an asshole with her. If Robert would have been a better husband maybe she wouldn't have cheated on him.

Second I don't think Robert would give a fuck about the Night's Watch and the Others. Many people don't believe they exist.

Third Robert and Cersei are both terrible parents, even if they would have had a trueborn child, he would be fucked up.

Jaime and Cersei were screwing way before she married Robert. Also, Robert cared about Ned and Ned helped the Watch.

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The point still stands. She captured Tyrion because of what she suspected he had done to Bran. And Bran's fall was again a result of Jaime and Cersei's incest. No incest, no fall, no need to capture Tyrion.

This is just blinded hate.

Then if Bran would have obeyed his mother for once, he wouldn't have fallen because he wouldn't have climbed in the first place.

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I think Davo's dungeon must be one of the nicest I ever saw. Well lit, cosy, warm, nice goaler, he looks well fed and clean, well-groomed, his clothes look clean too. The service must be great. One might be forgiven for thinking that he was just having a nice rest. I'm surprised they don't charge him rent.

I'm glad you think so, because Davos was sent there to recover, not to rot!

This is just blinded hate.

Then if Bran would have obeyed his mother for once, he wouldn't have fallen because he wouldn't have climbed in the first place.

He wouldn't have fallen if not for the incest.

The incest was what started the rippling effect. That's easy to see. As easy as it was to see for Cersei and Jaime their relationship could, and would end up having serious implications.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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Uh you are over simplifying everything and that's boring. Your leaving out a very important cog in the series of events that is not reliant on the incestuous relationship that you claim. Littlefinger falsely implicated the Lannisters in the death of Jon Arryn conving Lysa to tell the Starks. He also falsely implicated Tyrion Lannister as the mastermind of the plot to kill Bran. Littlefinger's ambition is not a result of Jamie and Cercei's incest.

No, the incest isn't the reason for his ambition, true. Though it is the primary force behind his plan. Without it, the plan simply doesn't work. Her incest/bastards were the primary reason for Ned, Stannis, Renly and John Arryn to take the actions that they did.

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This is just blinded hate.

Then if Bran would have obeyed his mother for once, he wouldn't have fallen because he wouldn't have climbed in the first place.

LOL, wut? It's blind hate to blame twin's incestual relationship for the horrors that occur in this series when EVERYTHING can be pointed to said incest? It's more like blind love on your part for Jaime it would seem. heck, you love for that character has you DEFENDING incest for the seven's sake!

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Cersei already had a relationship with Jaime before the marriage which neither of them would have given up, and definitely not Jaime, you know that as well as I do. Cersei could've had just one of his kids, just one, and it would've been enough to stop this trainwreck from happening.

Robert seems like the guy who would take Ned's (who would've been alive) advice seriously when it concerns the well-being of the North, he definitely likes going to war, and at any rate, the realm would have been more prepared for the others.

Neither Tommen nor Myrcella seem 'fucked up'.

True, but do you remember the night that Joffrey was conceived? Maybe Cersei wouldn't have founded terrible to have at least one kid with Robert if he wouldn't have been such a bad husband.

Let's hope he would. Ned himself noted that Robert was different from the friend he knew.

I believe they could become eventually. I don't think Joffrey was bad all his life and just for being born in incest.

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Not just in the show, and not just in this episode my friend ;)

Ah yes, but especially this episode, and many more to come!

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True, but do you remember the night that Joffrey was conceived? Maybe Cersei wouldn't have founded terrible to have at least one kid with Robert if he wouldn't have been such a bad husband.

Let's hope he would. Ned himself noted that Robert was different from the friend he knew.

I believe they could become eventually. I don't think Joffrey was bad all his life and just for being born in incest.

Cersei admitted to once conceiving a baby with Robert and that Jaime took care of it before it could be born. Also, Joffrey was always messed up. Don't you remember the story in Feast about him doing something to a cat that made Robert beat him bloody?

Edited by Versiroth

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LOL, wut? It's blind hate to blame twin's incestual relationship for the horrors that occur in this series when EVERYTHING can be pointed to said incest? It's more like blind love on your part for Jaime it would seem. heck, you love for that character has you DEFENDING incest for the seven's sake!

Hold on!! When did I ever said I love Jaime? I'm not a Jaime fan. Is just like I said before:

Exactly! I always find incredibly stupid and ridiculous (and I don't like using this word) when people blame all the bad events in one single character.

I hate it when people blame everything in ONE single character (or two in this case). Like when people blame Cat for everything. I'm not a Cat fan, but I hate when people blame her for everything.

All the events happen by multiple actions by multiple people.

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As each episode goes by, Catelyn and Stannis are being presented less accurately :thumbsdown:,

Really? Because I thought that she was pretty much exactly as she was in the books during this episode.

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Nothing forced them to sleep with one another. They had those feelings even when they were little as described by Cersei in the books. Without their incest, nothing else that happens in the books would have happened. It was the first proverbial domino. And to say those that dislike Jaime are narrow minded is you being a little narrow minded yourself. Honestly, if I knew any child murders in RL, I don't think they'd ever be able to make it up in life either. And you can't say that he's not a child murder just because Bran lived. He had every intention for him to die in that fall.

Yes, but perhaps their parents could have prevented them, or had them reconsider the sense in doing just that in the first place. It's not as if Joanna explained to them why it was wrong when it was discovered by... a maid? I think. She separated them and told them never to do it again. How's that for good parenting? So, we might just call that the reason for the war. All I'm saying is that one person's action never is the single cause. There is always a chain of events leading to the result.

I don't mind people disliking Jaime at all, but most people who hate him can't admit to him even attempting to change, or having any good qualities, because they are blinded by their hatred for him, usually because of what he did to Bran. People can hate him all they like, but to say he is a complete asshole or force of evil without any good qualities at all (as is common by those who dislike him) is just wrong. It's not true. And that is what I oppose and mind. A person who can't admit to his attempts to change for the better when he clearly is, or that he has any good qualities what so ever, strikes me as ignorant. There is definitely more to Jaime than what he did to Bran, and it is a pity when people can't see that.

There are plenty characters I hate in the books, but I would never either of them pure evil or such. With the exception of Joffrey perhaps, or Brienne. They are pretty much black and white, but I'm happily proven wrong.

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The incest was not the start of the war. Renly and Loras were already plotting to marry Marge to Robert and kick out Cersei, no mention of any incest then. Robert died and everyone wanted a justification to rebel and get a piece of the pie, that's all.

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Cersei admitted to once conceiving a baby with Robert and that Jaime took care of it before it could be born. Also, Joffrey was always messed up. Don't you remember the story in Feast about him doing something to a cat that made Robert beat him bloody?

That wasn't Cersei's first child. Maybe she would've had the baby if she didn't hate Robert for the way he trated her.

But is he messed up just for being born in incest? If that's so, then why Myrcella and Tommen are not?

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If Littlefinger was responsible for Jon Arryn's death then the fact that Jamie and Cercei engaged in incest did not cause the course of events to take place. He was killed as a means to furthering his own position, You can make the arguement the fact that Littlefinger was never able to marry Catlyn Stark played a bigger role in the events of the series. The incestous relationship was the excuse he used to trigger his plan, but at the end of the day it was his ambition that caused the civil war.

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