[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion

[Versiroth]

Hold on!! When did I ever said I love Jaime? I'm not a Jaime fan. Is just like I said before:

I hate it when people blame everything in ONE single character (or two in this case). Like when people blame Cat for everything. I'm not a Cat fan, but I hate when people blame her for everything.

All the events happen by multiple actions by multiple people.

Just because you hate when someone claims that one character is the cause of everything doesn't mean I'm wrong. A lot of characters have made a lot of choices to forge the events as a whole, but the first domino in this long chain of events WAS the incestual relationship between Jaime and Cersei. That really can't be denied.

[Joyful Union]

The incest was not the start of the war. Renly and Loras were already plotting to marry Marge to Robert and kick out Cersei, no mention of any incest then. Robert died and everyone wanted a justification to rebel and get a piece of the pie, that's all.

Yeah, but Robert died because Cersei made sure that Lancel poisoned him.

[Peptalk]

Again, NONE, I repeat NONE of those things would have happened if not for their incest. If you want to blame Tywin, fine. But you can't say that the incest wasn't the starting ripple effect.

I'm editing this post, so;

I haven't. You seemed to be implying that their incest was the single cause for the war, which isn't true. Yes, it definitely was part in causing the war as it, as you said, had a ripple effect. But all those characters that made moves after Bran had been pushed out the window were also cause for the war as they all made certain choices. Had they in turn not made said choices (the same way, if Jaime hadn't slept with Cersei he wouldn't have pushed Bran out the window) it might have turned out different. Every choice made by every character in the chain of events led to an outcome, in this case, the war.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Peptalk

[drstrangelove]

Just because you hate when someone claims that one character is the cause of everything doesn't mean I'm wrong. A lot of characters have made a lot of choices to forge the events as a whole, but the first domino in this long chain of events WAS the incestual relationship between Jaime and Cersei. That really can't be denied.

Denied. The first Domino was Littlefinger deciding to cause trouble. Their relationship was a means to an end for him. His plan to better his situation was in place way before he became aware of the Lannisters.

Edited April 29, 2013 by drstrangelove

[snowtarg]

Barristan was on the Small Council in Season 1 of the show. Remember how only he and Ned argued against sending an assassin to kill Dany? It's apparent that Barristan is lying to Jorah because he doesn't want Jorah to know that he knows that Jorah was a spy for Varys.

You're getting the books and the TV show confused, which Brian Cogman is fully aware of, which was my whole point.

In the show everyone is unanimous against Ned that Dany should be assassinated. There is no Barristan. I've seen all the episodes more than a dozen times. I'm deeply ashamed of myself.

My apologies! I just re-watched the small council scene in question (S1, Episode 5) and Barristan was not there. My memory has apparently fused the book scene with the show scene, because I still see Barristan there in my mind's eye.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Just because you hate when someone claims that one character is the cause of everything doesn't mean I'm wrong. A lot of characters have made a lot of choices to forge the events as a whole, but the first domino in this long chain of events WAS the incestual relationship between Jaime and Cersei. That really can't be denied.

Denied.

There you have it!

Edited April 29, 2013 by Darth Zyroth

[Versiroth]

Yes, but perhaps their parents could have prevented them, or had them reconsider the sense in doing just that in the first place. It's not as if Joanna explained to them why it was wrong when it was discovered by... a maid? I think. She separated them and told them never to do it again. How's that for good parenting? So, we might just call that the reason for the war. All I'm saying is that one person's action never is the single cause. There is always a chain of events leading to the result.

I don't mind people disliking Jaime at all, but most people who hate him can't admit to him even attempting to change, or having any good qualities, because they are blinded by their hatred for him, usually because of what he did to Bran. People can hate him all they like, but to say he is a complete asshole or force of evil without any good qualities at all (as is common by those who dislike him) is just wrong. It's not true. And that is what I oppose and mind. A person who can't admit to his attempts to change for the better when he clearly is, or that he has any good qualities what so ever, strikes me as ignorant. There is definitely more to Jaime than what he did to Bran, and it is a pity when people can't see that.

There are plenty characters I hate in the books, but I would never either of them pure evil or such. With the exception of Joffrey perhaps, or Brienne. They are pretty much black and white, but I'm happily proven wrong.

I don't dislike Jaime because I believe that he's pure evil. I dislike him because of even when he's trying to do something good he comes off as an asshole. He can't get out of his own way long enough to become a truly good character person.

[relish5k]

I'd say that the best parts of this episode (there were many!) were the Robb parts. Loved the Karstark beheading scene -

! Anyone catch that? I thought it was brilliant, and echoed Theon's beheading of Ser Rodrick. Also, seeing Robb actually get to come up with a clever plan at the end was nice. Honestly, it'll help provide a buildup for the climax this season.

It was! I wasn't sure if they would show Robb botch the execution, since they already made that moment happen with Theon. But I really like how they connected the two thematically.

[Versiroth]

If Littlefinger was responsible for Jon Arryn's death then the fact that Jamie and Cercei engaged in incest did not cause the course of events to take place. He was killed as a means to furthering his own position, You can make the arguement the fact that Littlefinger was never able to marry Catlyn Stark played a bigger role in the events of the series. The incestous relationship was the excuse he used to trigger his plan, but at the end of the day it was his ambition that caused the civil war.

No, it was the fact that Robert had no true born sons that causes the war. Which again points to the incest. Ned would have protected Roberts kids unto his death if they would have been his true children.

[Peptalk]

I don't dislike Jaime because I believe that he's pure evil. I dislike him because of even when he's trying to do something good he comes off as an asshole. He can't get out of his own way long enough to become a truly good character person.

Oh, I wasn't saying you do, merely that that is the general impression I have of people who hate or strongly dislike him. In which scenes do you think he comes off as an asshole despite trying to do some good? Just curious.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Just because you hate when someone claims that one character is the cause of everything doesn't mean I'm wrong. A lot of characters have made a lot of choices to forge the events as a whole, but the first domino in this long chain of events WAS the incestual relationship between Jaime and Cersei. That really can't be denied.

By your logic then why not blame everything on Tyrion? Jaime and Cersei where in that stage when kids are "exploring" their sexuality. They needed to be educated so it wouldn't go the wrong way. Joanna noticed it, so she was trying to keep them separated. But Tyrion was born and Joanna died in childbirth, so she couldn't keep educating them and it went the wrong way. So it is all Tyrion's fault. (which I don't believe)

[Versiroth]

If Littlefinger was responsible for Jon Arryn's death then the fact that Jamie and Cercei engaged in incest did not cause the course of events to take place. He was killed as a means to furthering his own position, You can make the arguement the fact that Littlefinger was never able to marry Catlyn Stark played a bigger role in the events of the series. The incestous relationship was the excuse he used to trigger his plan, but at the end of the day it was his ambition that caused the civil war.

If there was no incest, then Bran would have never been pushed out of a window. No cripple Bran, no captured Tyrion, No reason for the Lannisters to go to war. Also, if there wouldn't have been any incest, then Cersei would have give birth a a true-born son for Robert. A son that Ned, Stannis and Renly would have protected. So, they would not have gone to war either.

Littlefinger would have been a gun with no bullets without the incest.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Oh, I disagree. I think the portrayal of Tywin is very true to the books; Dance's performance is simply putting a face to the name. Saying that Tywin is a "bully" is not an accurate description of the character given his track record. Yes, he sometimes forces people to do things in HIS best interest, but he also fights people (Tarback's; Catemere's, the Darke's of Duskendale). He is not a man given to empty promises; in fact that Tywin's most notable character trait - if he tells you he is going to do something, he does it. There was a REASON that the people who eventually do business with Tywin did business with him - because they knew they could trust Tywin. As strange as that may seem. Further, Tywin is actually an exceptional good judge of character and his moves in the books (and before the books) show this.

To me, the reason viewers like Tywin is because Tywin is intelligent, savvy, ruthless, and effective. So many characters - in a time ruled by all these attributes - seem to lack many of them.

Maybe bully is the wrong word...I meant that Tywin gets people to do things not by establishing that these things are actually good ideas but by cowing the people he's dealing with. He certainly doesn't make empty threats, but that's part of it. People do trust him...but mostly they trust him to destroy them if they cross him. When he throws out scathing insults, they are effective not because they are necesarily accurate but because he has such a dominating demeanor.

When it comes to judging people and situations he's generally good but also makes important missteps, usually in the form of underestimating the other person. He underestimates Robb in their first battles against each other, although I will admit his other war-related decisions are very "savy and ruthless." Mainly he misjudges people in his personal circle, particularly his children. This comes to a head towards the end of SoS when Jaime flatly refuses to do what Tywin wants and then Tyrion gets the jump on Tywin in the privy. I think Tywin also severly underestimates Cercei's cleverness, ruthlessness, and personal drive, although that misjudgement doesn't end up having severe, direct consequenses for him.

There's some other things he doesn't catch on to as well...the Red Viper planning to champion Tyrion and Littlefinger spiriting away Sansa. He doesn't catch on to any aspect of the Joffrey murder conspiracy.

So, *in general*, Tywin is savy, ruthless, and effective, but he frequently has blind spots and makes some pretty severe mistakes when it comes to judging certain characters. I'm just afraid his judgement flaws are getting lost in the awesome performance. But I guess when his crows come home to roost next season it will become pretty apparent to everyone.

EDIT: I also agree that show Tywin is very true to book Tywin; I just think book Tywin is presented in such a way that his flaws are more apparent.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Smaug the Dreadful

[Versiroth]

By your logic then why not blame everything on Tyrion? Jaime and Cersei where in that stage when kids are "exploring" their sexuality. They needed to be educated so it wouldn't go the wrong way. Joanna noticed it, so she was trying to keep them separated. But Tyrion was born and Joanna died in childbirth, so she couldn't keep educating them and it went the wrong way. So it is all Tyrion's fault. (which I don't believe)

The incest was a choice. A choice that they continued into their adult lives. You're going to honestly tell me that something that happened due to pure happenstance is equal to two people making a conscience choice, knowing all the while it was wrong?

Jaime and Cersei shouldn't be held accountable for their actions here? Because it seems like that's what you're trying to do. Blame anyone and everyone except for the two responsible.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Versiroth

[Peptalk]

The incest was a choice. A choice that they continued into their adult lives. You're going to honestly tell me that something that happened due to pure happenstance is equal to two people making a conscience choice, knowing all the while it was wrong?

Well, to be fair, they were small children at the time. I'm not sure they were aware it was wrong. You could argue that Joanna's separating them and telling them to never do it again should have been enough but given their age at the time I wouldn't blame either party if it wasn't. Looking at history the Targaryens wed their siblings for centuries, and unless she ever discussed it with them again I'm fairly certain that would convince them that it was alright despite what she said that one time. A child whose mother tells him/her once that what he/she is doing is wrong once doesn't usually have the desired effect. Things usually have to be explained several times to children.

Although, once they became older, yes, they should probably have realized it was wrong if that is the common opinion in Westeros. I can understand if they didn't stop after having done it for such long time though, given that it had worked just fine all along (= nothing ever happened that indicated that it was wrong, any illness or such).

Edited April 29, 2013 by Peptalk

[JMJ]

By your logic then why not blame everything on Tyrion? Jaime and Cersei where in that stage when kids are "exploring" their sexuality. They needed to be educated so it wouldn't go the wrong way. Joanna noticed it, so she was trying to keep them separated. But Tyrion was born and Joanna died in childbirth, so she couldn't keep educating them and it went the wrong way. So it is all Tyrion's fault. (which I don't believe)

Hey, then blame Tywin for getting Joanna preggers with Tyrion in the first place...

[rmholt]

I agree. Its only been about a few months since Renly died. In another way, it only adds to the misconception that gay people are promiscuous.

Isnt it Known that men as a general rule tend to rebound sexually sooner than women = go looking for another mate ASAP? Anyway it doesnt matter so much to the TV version.

And if Loras is being promiscuous he isnt doing it very well.

Edited April 29, 2013 by rmholt

[Versiroth]

Well, to be fair, they were small children at the time. I'm not sure they were aware it was wrong. You could argue that Joanna's separating them and telling them to never do it again should have been enough but given their age at the time I wouldn't blame either party if it wasn't. Looking at history the Targaryens wed their siblings for centuries, and unless she ever discussed it with them again I'm fairly certain that would convince them that it was alright despite what she said that one time. A child whose mother tells him/her once that what he/she is doing is wrong once doesn't usually have the desired effect. Things usually have to be explained several times to children.

Although, once they became older, yes, they should probably have realized it was wrong if that is the common opinion in Westeros.

Regardess of what happened when they were children, the adults that chose to kill King Robert's true-born fetus and only give birth to Jaime's were adults and completely accountable for their actions. Actions that caused a horrible ripple effect that hurt all of the seven kingdoms. I'm just surprised that people actually try to justify their actions. The incest was completely wrong and absolutely no good came from it at all.

[Mappy]

Am I the only one who finds the incest argument to be hilarious?

[Sansa in the North]

The incest was a choice.

In the words of Jaime Lannister, we can't choose who we love.

And why do you say that Cersei would have given Robert an heir if there was no incest? Robert would have still mistreated her and called her Lyanna. She wouldn't have loved him or wanted his children. And she shouldn't be obliged to have his children if she doesn't want to, even if she is the queen, especially since it was probably her father, not her, who decided that she should be queen.

Also, someone up thread said that Jaime is still fighting for the wrong side. Erm, excuse me, he is fighting for his family. There is nor right and wrong side in Westeros. The right side does not equal the Starks.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Sansa in the North