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[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion

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One question, what did Jaime say to Brienne in the bath to infuriate her so much she stood up in front of him? I rewound the dvr numerous times but couldn't make it out.

"If I faint, pull me out. I'm don't intend to be the first Lannister to die in a bath tub."

"Why should I care how you die?"

"You swore a solemn vow, remember? You're supposed to get me to King's Landing in one piece. Not going so well, is it? No wonder Renly died with you guarding him."

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RE: morally judging the Twincest, remember that there was plenty of precedence for that. It was the Targaryen way, out in the open. It makes the Twincest very modestly less of a travesty in the context of Westerosi mores.

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While I agree you can't choose who you love, you can choose how to act on it. It's what separates us from animals. It was his choice to sleep with his sister, and to do all the horrible things he did, it was also his choice to slay the king and not defend his actions.

So here's my question, Can everything Jaime did that was wrong be tied back to that moment that Ned Stark branded him an Oathbreaker and a traitor? Is it all because of that moment that Jaime chose to live up to the expectations of being the Oathbreaker. Was Cersi a virgin when she wedded Robert?

I do have to say that if you are a queen it is you obligation to have heirs and bastards are not true heirs. She wasn't choosing to have incestual heirs because Robert was oh so mean to her. She was being plotting and manipultive from the get go, and those were here choices.

Now you are just going to feed the people that will want to blame Ned, lol.

I can see how some of Robert's actions may have made Cersei want to get back at him by hooking up with Jaime and bearing his kids. But I can't say with confidence that they ever would have stopped, regardless of how good Robert was to her. I am not not completely buying that Cersei gave a good faith effort to Robert or a further argument that if he was only nicer she would have been a loving wife and stopped screwing her brother. I find that flimsy

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It's possible that Jaime, a guy who joined the Kingsguard which required celibacy, was trying to run away from Cersei but the scorn he faced after killing Aerys, drove him right back into her arms.

Or it's possible, and what I inferred from the books, that Jaime joined the Kingsguard as a way to avoid being forced to marry someone else while he continued to schtup Cersei.

Cersei convinced him to join the Kingsguard to hinder him from getting married. He joined the Kingsguard because it would keep him close to her.

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I honestly give up on this conversation as I'm only arguing in circles anyway. I think Jaime's an ass. I feel zero sympathy for Cersei. I think Incest is bad. I hope neither survive to see the 7th book.

There, I'm done. Have at it. :drunk:

lol :cool4: :P No problem man I enjoyed this discusion.

I think the funniest thing are the posts comenting on the episode in the middle of this incest argument :lol:

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Cersei convinced him to join the Kingsguard to hinder him from getting married. He joined the Kingsguard because it would keep him close to her.

Was that explicitly stated in the book? I couldn't remember.

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Yes, we can butterfly effect our way as far back as we want, right? lol

If Cat had loved Jon Snow, the Lannisters would have never had an incestuous relationship.

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I think Tywin wants Cersei remarried and out of the capital more than he cares who she marries. But can you imagine Cersei in Dorne? How long would it take for her to singlehandedly start a new civil war? :P Loras might actually be a decent match for Cersei – they could probably come to some sort of discrete arrangement regarding their lovers, and it would get her out from under Tywin’s thumb.

It looks like they’re skipping Arya and Gendry at the bar and Arya and Gendry at the Acorn hall, which makes sense – those scenes aren’t necessary and it would be easy to make Gendry creepy with that sort of thing. But I thought they were cute scenes and was looking forward to a little adorable awkwardness between the two of them.

I do hope we get Loras’ candle line in there somewhere.

I don’t like the Talisa-as-a-spy theory. What point would it be? Just to show that Robb was thoroughly outclassed by Tywin? To show that one of the very few happy couples on the continent was a lie? We already have Jon’s betrayal of Ygritte, can’t Robb’s tragedy at least feature devoted love between two people? It just seems like Robb’s story is dark enough already, and I don’t see what the story gains from spy-Talisa. (Jeyne’s family was devious, but the girl was honestly in love with Robb) Anyway, it hardly requires a spy married to the King to observe troop movements.

Littlefinger’s little smile after Cersei mentioned that she’d like him to be better at keeping an eye on the Tyrells than at finding Arya was more evidence to me, at least, that he did recognize her at Harrenhal.

I wonder if Varys will somehow engineer Jorah’s downfall? We keep having these hints of Varys’ global connections; and it would be interesting to start seeing him pulling strings in Dany’s plotline.

Agree. It takes the "good guys don't always win" idea too far. On the heels of Ned/Littlefinger, it starts turning the good guys into bumbling fools and bad guys into having every evil scheme work out perfectly for them. IMHO

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What I Am On the Fence about:

The Queen of Thorns and Hammy Writing: I like Lady Olenna and I enjoy her scenes in bite sized portions. But … every week it appears to be the same thing: Lady Olenna sits down next to an established character; the established character immediately losses all the intellect, charm, wit and danger they possessed up to the moment they met Lady Olenna and act ham-handed, clumsy, foolish and boarder-line stupid. Started with Sansa, continued with Cersei, reached ridiculous heights with Varys and culminated this week in the show utterly neutering its best character… all to make Olenna seemed smart. This week was the worst because Tyrion is the best character on the show and to make him seem tongue-tied, awkward, clumsy and intimidated by her is utterly out of place.

I actually really like that they're playing up her character more than in the books. And Tyrion is supposed to be all down after the Blackwater, and I'm glad she calls him out on it. "Brow-beaten bookkeeper" was an excellent line IMO. Plus, I thought the scene was important for conveying crucial information - just how important the Tyrells are exactly in propping up the Lannisters.

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lol :cool4: :P No problem man I enjoyed this discusion.

I think the funniest thing are the posts comenting on the episode in the middle of this incest argument :lol:

Yeah, I don't think they actually read the entire thread while posting, hehe.

And yes Versiroth > I feel that way sometimes too. It was nice discussing with you anyway, though!

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Was that explicitly stated in the book? I couldn't remember.

Perhaps not phrased like that, but I re-read certain Jaime chapters recently for reference in a discussion and think I read something along those lines. I may also have read something someone quoted from the books.

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Perhaps not phrased like that, but I re-read certain Jaime chapters recently for reference in a discussion and think I read something along those lines. I may also have read something someone quoted from the books.

Ah, I found it. I think I got it off his Wiki-page which I assume is correct.

"At the age of fifteen, Jaime was knighted on the battlefield by Ser Arthur Dayne during the campaign against the Kingswood Brotherhood[9], during which he saved Lord Crakehall from Big Belly Ben and crossed swords with the psychotic Smiling Knight. On his return to King's Landing he stopped to visit his sister, from whom he had been separated for years.

It was there that Cersei told him that Lord Tywin intended to marry him to Lysa Tully, second daughter of Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun. Cersei suggested that Jaime become a member of the Kingsguard instead, replacing the recently deceased Ser Harlan Grandison, to be close to her and free himself of the unwanted marriage to Lysa. After a night of passionate sex he gave his consent to Cersei's plan and within a month she had orchestrated it.[9]"

Edited by Peptalk

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I didn't quite catch that bit in the episode where Tywin told Cersei she's going to marry Loras instead. So, is Loras the heir to Highgarden in the show? If yes then I am upset because I've always wanted to, if not meet, but hear something about Willas (and with Willas is Garlan). Tywin should've also proposed that Cersei also consider marrying Oberyn Martell because, idk, don't you think it's about time they set up the appearance of the Martells since the Royal Wedding is fast approaching?

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Nope, the Doom of Valyria.

Nope, when the first Rhoynar invaded Westeros, or the invasion of the Andals, or the First Men.

No wait, it all goes back to September 20, 1948. They day GRRM was born.

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