[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion

[Ampris]

My one issue. What the heck would be accomplished by marrying cersei to Loras . They are already creating an alliance with highgarden with the royal wedding. Seems like a waste to me.

In the book Tywin cycled through possible choices which included Robert Arryn and Theon Greyjoy. Besides Loras already announced he was joining the Kingsguard and Joffrey accepted.

Some people have proposed that Tywin is in on the assassination of Joffrey. If he knows Joff will die then it makes sense to secure Highgarden in other ways.

I don't remember Loras announcing he will join the KG though.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

OK, this is just uncool. I'm not a fan of the voice he puts on during the show, but this is just ad-hominem and unnecessary.

Sorry. I was just joking. But you're right, it was bad saying that. I apologize for the offenses I may have caused.

[wonder1859]

He did shy away now and then and reacted to it when the sword lit up initially though? I thought his fear for fire came through.

I'm not disputing that he reacted negatively to the flaming sword and the fire. My issue is that they showed his reactions and then, IMO, completely dropped the ball when it came to depicting the culmination of those fears after he's been burned. The guy is a seething rage-machine suffering from chronic PTSD and his reaction in the book is completely plausible: he regresses to the young boy who was so horribly abused and traumatized by his brother. But apparently show Sandor is too much of a bad-ass to have any emotional reaction other than laughter to this newest trauma he's suffered.

[JMJ]

RE: Cersei-Loras, To add, Tywin may have also been trying to merely solidify the Tyrell-Lannister bond. Can't hurt, from that perspective. In terms of strategic marriages, what would be the alternatives? Obviously the North and most of the Riverlands are out. Tywin's already sending Littlefinger to the Vale to gain that contingency. Myrcella's been sent to Dorne. in Tywin's estimation, the Iron Born are probably not worth the effort. That leaves the Freys. I think the RW strategy for Tywin in the long-view includes House Frey as a sacrifice move. They will take most of the blame for the RW, and as we are seeing in the books, they are the target for much hate from the North after that.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Jam Maester Jay

[timstanton]

my theory. might have already been said but i dont have time at work to read 25+ pages, so im sorry. I think Cercei will manipulate Joffrey, just like Tywin said she couldnt. She will convince him to put Loras on the kingsguard, freeing her up from marriage and also sticking it to margery/stroking her own ego. My 2 cents on the jamie/cersei opinions. I like Jamie because i think he is a good person deep down who has made terrible mistakes. He eventually acknowledges those things and hates himself for it. I like his bravado, he is a lannister after all. Cercei is innately evil, which is why i dont like her. I dont agree with incest, but i dont think it is viewed quite the same in westeros.

[Greywolf2375]

honestly, if he still had his hand, I don't believe he would have changed much at all.

Of course he wouldn't have changed - he would have had no reason. That is why I was disappointed last week when he admitted to Brienne that all he is is a hand with a sword. I much preferred the process in the book when he questions himself as to "am I only a hand?"

Without him losing his hand he has 0 reason to make any changes, be at all self reflective or look at anyone else like they may even be close to what he represents.

It really is one of the few issues I had with last weeks episode, I think his knowing and admitting right off that he acknowledges all he is a hand with a sword in it really cuts into what his character progression can be.

[Druze]

One thing that saddens me a bit is in the book I remember Davos was made hand of the king after rotting in the cell in a very moving way which made you like Stannis way more. That was my favorite Stannis/Davos scene in any of the books. But seeing as they already made him hand in season 2 en route to Blackwater Bay I think the powerful scene that will emerge from Stannis and our Onion Knight's renuion will be a Maester's letter bearing tidings from the wall perhaps read with the Onion's newly acquired reading comprehension?

[Honey Bee]

What a great episode.

The Hound/Beric scene was absolutely fabulous. I am so excited to see Sandors next few episodes. (Also loved how they added his name in there. )

I love how Thoros looks, although not how I pictured him. I love his hair. ;)

Arya/Gendry scene was fantastic. From the book, I felt betrayed by Gendry but the scene made him feel more human to me.

Arya/Thoros, how upsetting. Ned was brought up in a few scenes this epi.

Jamie/Roose, dick move. I hope they really start to show how much of a BA Roose is because, while the comment was dick headed-ish it still wasn't "I'm a fucking creep" to me.

Jamie/Brienne/bath perfection. Totally made you see their dynamic. Made Jamie more human. I can totally see his softer nature in regards to other Lannister. I truly believe Cersie is the puppet master behind most of Jamie's bad decisions/assholeness. I believe that she has him truly manipulated.

Karstark scenes were great. I haven't ever been a huge Robb follower. He is interesting but I ruined him for myself when I found out about RW prematurely. So again, they were some great scenes, I enjoy watching him start to fill out as a King.

Sansa/LF scene and all the Sansa marriage stuff kinda has me upset. They shouldn't have excluded Dontos... It's too confusing to many people had their hands in that.Also getting rid of Willa's was silly as well, Sansa wasn't ne entirely happy about the marriage. it made her start to become a player vs a pawn realizing her claim to the North via Dontos etc...

But I digress... The stuff with the Tyrells was ho-hum... I'm not a purist but it just messed my flow with the Sansa marriage debacle.

Love the Lannister Family Meeting at the end it was supreme. I love when Cersie gets smacked back down. Segwaying, Kevan better be in here because I love when he bitch slaps some knowledge in her face....

Just want to finish by saying I don't hate any character. They all have their faults. I love the story and the show and I'm so excited about this season, as with all the seasons they are just something to pass the time for the next book!

:D

Edited April 29, 2013 by Lady Honey Bee

[timstanton]

Of course he wouldn't have changed - he would have had no reason. That is why I was disappointed last week when he admitted to Brienne that all he is is a hand with a sword. I much preferred the process in the book when he questions himself as to "am I only a hand?"

Without him losing his hand he has 0 reason to make any changes, be at all self reflective or look at anyone else like they may even be close to what he represents.

It really is one of the few issues I had with last weeks episode, I think his knowing and admitting right off that he acknowledges all he is a hand with a sword in it really cuts into what his character progression can be.

to be fair, when he said that in the show, it had only been 24 hours since he lost his hand. he had lost a lot of blood and probably wasnt thinking straight. its a lot easier in the books to examine feelings like that because you can have inner monologue. I think the show is doing a great job showing that jamie is examing who is really is and reflecting on the things/mistakes hes made in his life.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Where is my dear Patchface? :crying: When I realised what Shireen was singing I was hoping he'd pop out and they'd perform a duet :lol: .

Seriously though aren't dragons(and Dragonstone) supposed to scare the crap outta little Shireen.

I don't remember Brienne being so confident with her nudity in the book.

MY NUMBER ONE COMPLAINT: MORE NORTH OF THE WALL

Overall I liked this episode a lot.

[Greywolf2375]

There is no "gap" where Selmy gets to decide whether or not his loyalty should be suspended. He's oath is to THAT family and NOT to Robert. But Selmy chooses Robert (for VERY GOOD reasons) and he continues on (until... he decides he needs another Targ to serve... imagine that...). Selmy= honorable; Jaime = dishonorable.

Is the KG oath to the family or is it to the position? There's obviously the conflict during the rebellion, but after the person in place has changed, does the KG owe allegiance to the prior king or new? Since they are Kingsguard and not Targ Guard or Baratheon guard I've never had as much a problem with the KG working for the new king.

[JMJ]

Is the KG oath to the family or is it to the position? There's obviously the conflict during the rebellion, but after the person in place has changed, does the KG owe allegiance to the prior king or new? Since they are Kingsguard and not Targ Guard or Baratheon guard I've never had as much a problem with the KG working for the new king.

This falls in line with that great musing Jaime has in the books about conflicting oaths. Oath to the king, vs. family, vs. whatever. That was one of the passages that really made me respect Jaime.

[Greywolf2375]

to be fair, when he said that in the show, it had only been 24 hours since he lost his hand. he had lost a lot of blood and probably wasnt thinking straight. its a lot easier in the books to examine feelings like that because you can have inner monologue. I think the show is doing a great job showing that jamie is examing who is really is and reflecting on the things/mistakes hes made in his life.

I don't disagree, I just liked the way he started out questioning it and then progressed on. You could be right, because of the shock to his mind and body he is just going straight to thinking that. How he has portrayed Jaime has been fantastic, when "complaints" have to be such minor nitpicks it shows how well it is being done.

[Knight]

Somebody mentioned in the discussion thread on the previous episode that the Twins are in the opening credits but they do not pop up - It is nice that the location is already included and the observant viewer will see that this will be a location yet to be visited in upcoming episodes as I just saw that 'the Twins' is written next to it on the map.

[Maia]

Why on earth did they cast a blonde girl as Shireen and didn't dye her hair? Doesn't it completely undermine the already tenious evidence as to why Cersei's children may be bastards and make Stannis even more of a hypocrite than he is in the books?

And those babies in jars were not only seriously gross, but some of them were far too large to be newborns.... More like 3-4 year-olds, what's the deal with that?

I really don't understand their choices re: hair color with Baratheons and Lannisters, given that it is such crucial part of the plot. I mean, Robert wasn't that much darker than Jaime and one could certainly imagine that at least Tommen's hair may have darkened to his color in time. Renly and Stannis also weren't dark enough. Tyrion is too dark. Now, Shireen is blonde? Why do they carelessly slaughter one of the more important plot elements in the series?

Edited April 29, 2013 by Maia

[Broken Fox]

They weren't even close to being the size of 3-4 year olds.

[Maia]

Well, the largest one is. Maybe 2-3, but certainly too big for a stillborn. In fact, only one of them seemed of a size of a newborn baby.

[rmholt]

Yeah pick one and stick with it. The problem I have is it makes him seem like a more cartoonish villain character. I have a great deal of respect for book Littlefinger and the way he plays the game. On the show, he's sort of transformed into a "smooth satan" with devilish goatee and black/grey slicked hair to match; rasping his lines and grinning at his clever plots.

LF apparently caught a bigger weasel for the top of his head. And that raincoat is awful. Isnt he supposed to be a flashy dresser? I fail to see how making him pretty would detract from the show character.

Edited April 29, 2013 by rmholt

[Nictarion]

This is sarcasm right? We already know Loras is gay.

She is talking about Loras having a random hook up when in the books he's in complete mourning over Renly.

[Sun]

I just rewatched Robb's beheading of Karstark. It's such a beautifully shot scene. So atmospheric, dark and forboding with the rain pouring down on their heads mirroring the dampening gloom in the hearts of all in those attendance. The close up of Robb as he addresses KS, you can see each drop of water pounding down on his head as though each drop were laden with Karstark's words drilling into his scull. Those drops of water looked as though they weighed a ton. Then the beheading. One swift movement, and then a closeup of Robb's trembling fist, followed by him walking away, angry at the himself and the world.

It was so so beautiful.