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[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion


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Loved this episode to pieces ... it seemed longer than usual? I actually loved the quick cuts and how that was all handled near the end.

Loved Shireen! Loved the nod to book readers with one of the fetuses being named "Edric" ... I really liked how they are making Robb look like he has this amazingly clever plan and is going to kick Lannister butt ... lolol. I was a little disappointed that he managed to behead karstark w/ only one strike, though :/ ... it's just making poor Theon look bad, tbh. But when the two Lannister boys were killed, it was really rough :( Gah, this episode was just so good! Gosh, Jaime and Brienne were perfect.

Jon Snow is rushed this season and I feel like they kind of dropped the ball on his story arc ... I guess they are relying on ppl just inherently liking him? I dunno. Oh well.

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Brilliant episode. By far the best of the season.

-- Always love new additions to the credits sequence. Yunkai was no exception. Loved that it was oh so slightly different to Astapor.

-- Jon / Ygritte was interesting. I have no objections to sex/nudity when they serve a story purpose, and this one absolutely did.

-- Talisa siding against the killing of Karstack was very interesting, esp. since she's supposed to be miss nicey nice. Seems she's ok with the whole "for the greater good" argument.

-- Jaime / Brienne. Oh man, Jaime / Brienne. Brilliantly done and straight from the books. Also no objections to the nudity here too -- esp. since this whole scene is straight from the books.

-- Loved that the discussion about Aegon followed with a Dany scene, and especially loved that Jaime's talk about having dirt for honor was followed with Selmy talking about how an honorable man follows his king right or wrong. Good mirroring there.

-- Shireen just about made my heart melt. Her scene with Davos in the prison made me cry.

edit: oh, and I can't forget the lampshading of Selmy not being on the small council and how it changed Jorah's concerns about having his secret spilled. I like that they acknolwedged that it was a continuity issue, and I like how they massaged it. Cogman knows how to do his work, yessir.

Edited by Dragon of Valyria
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Yeah, but Gendry doesn't know that. You saw how the blacksmith treated Ned when Ned came to interview him - total deference and setting him on a pedestal. As far as Gendry knows, he'd be just some peasant if he went back with Arya.

ETA: This about Arya befriending the butcher's boy.

Edited by BLU-RAY
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I am using this post to go on record with my predictions regarding not how the show will change the books, but rather to note where I think Martin's story is going.

1. Arya and Gendry are going to have a romance if not be a married couple. That dialog between them was absolutely dead on a foreshawdowing of this. Gendry was asserting his need not only to be free of a master/serf relationship but also his need not to be subservient to Arya. I am not claiming that they have feelings for one another in a romantic way right now, that would be creepy and out of character for both of them, but they will. They are a natural pair. When Gendry learns he is a Baratheon, he is going to change his idea of himself. I don't mean he is going to think like a Lord, quite the opposite. He may even 'accept' what he is but reject the idea of lording it over anyone which totally matches Arya's idea of how she would like to live her life, not as a great lady, but as a woman who makes decisions for herself about how she wants to live. And knowing he is her social equal is going to give him the emotional confidence to both fall for her and maybe even pursue her.

2. Daenerys and Jon are going to be a riveting pair once they finally meet. I don't know if they will be given a happy ending, but they are going to recognize what they are to one another in a big way and it is going to register as a physical and spiritual attraction. They will marry if Martin wants to give anyone a 'happy' ending. But it will be much like Frodo's happy ending, that is they will both be haunted for life because of what they have had to do and had done to them.

3. Sorry to tell those who love Stannis, but he is a creep and is surrounded by creeps. Maybe he isn't entirely responsible for his dark side, but it is there and he will never, ever get to sit on the Iron throne unless it is about to be destroyed. His agony is apparent in this episode. Dany's 'dream' of the destroyed throne room suggest to me that she will arrive in King's Landing after it is already destroyed, perhaps after Stannis sits on it and precepitates its destruction.

4. Dany's is in no way the evil queen some on this board suggest. Both the actress and the script are making that crystal clear. She will have more dark crises, and she will make huge mistakes with her dragons, but those mistakes in Essos are part of her training for leadership of the battle to come in Westeros against the Others. She is going to have to learn how to control her dragons and how not to make serious leadership mistakes. This is the reason DWD ends with her standing next to Drogon about to be confronted and/or supported by Dothraki. I don't see many Dothraki crossing over into Westeros, but perhaps they will be her reserve force or a key number of them will cross the narrow sea with her. Ultimately, she may 'reform' their culture from its mysognism, but it won't be a genuine reform. The battle against the others will involve an alliance between former antagonists.

5. Two strains of magic will be revealed clearly by the end of the series. Tolkein's universe is being repeated in this sense. The Red God or some of his minions.will turn out to be evil. In other words, the god may have been misinterpreted by his followers. I cannot see Beric as evil, but he is compromised in some way and this episode made that clear.

Flame away: this is here as a record which I am bookmarking. I am not so nice as not to say: I told you so.


:fencing: :smug:

Gendry will be Melisandres other way of getting kings blood. She will sacrifice him, as she did edric storm in the books. Hate to ruin your love story.

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Edric was stillborn...


Also, how can we not assume Talisa is a spy at this point? You should go back to your home and take vengeance on the Ironborn, of course I still don't know where your home is despite sitting here staring at your maps, and I'm not at all implying you need to cross at The Twins... Not at all...

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When I turned the episode eon I immediately thought that there would be no way that the show would three-peat; three exceptional episodes in a row. WRONG! Not only was it exceptional, but it may have been the best episode of the season.

What I liked:

The Cave of Fire and Snow: One of my tope-ten scenes is the scene between Ygritte and Jon Snow where they come together and really evolve as a couple. Jon Snow jumps into his life with Ygritte and Yigritte shows real heart and soul; and they both prove they want the other. This scene completely capture that romance and that humanity of the two and it makes you want them to succeed- in everything they do.

The Humanity of Stannis Baratheon:

Lois Griffin: (Seeing her child Stewie with a person tied up and apparently torturing them) STEWIE! What are you doing?

Stewie: We’re playing House (quickly glances at the person he is torturing) Roman Polanski’s house.

-Famil GUy

Watching Stannis try to be a normal person in the face of his... horrifying home life was almost as painful as watching his fleet on fire. However… maybe for the first time… they nailed it. For starters, Stannis regrets some of his decisions, and even regrets betraying his Wife; his wife? Well… she’s a bit … touched? For starters, she is okay with it, second she is enamored by Mel; third she keeps her dead babies. Fourth, she may or may not keep her only child locked up in a tower, which is equal parts good thinking nad fucking terrifying.

And in case you missed it- she keeps the dead bodies of her three still-born babies in floating in green liquid... in her chambers... where she sleeps...

But here’s the thing: she knew how to talk to Stannis. She gets it! And she gets him (I thought it was wonderful when she just called him “Stannis”, and it appeared to disarm him). She wants Stannis to succeed and is standing by him. She completely brushes his guilt aside. All the while she stares at her “boys.” Stannis also gets HER! He genuinely feels bad for her; he GENUINELY sympathies with her; he GENUINELY wants others to respect her- and he wants to give her the respect she deserves, going so far as to ask her permission to see hius daughter.

And all the while we see the pain and misery these people have lived with.

Stannis with his child was, maybe, the best scene with Stannis since he stormed a beach apparently by himself. Shireen’s explosion of unconditional love and affection … FOR STANNIS was as surprising as it was natural. What little girl does not love her daddy? Even if that daddy is the most socially inept and cold-hearted person in the seven kingdoms.

And the fact that that little girl sang that song was… perfect.

The Dog and the Dead Man: I liked the Hound’s redemption. For starters, I liked that that fight was- almost move-for-move – identical to the book and that it had this in-your-face element of death, death death. That was a dangerous fight between dangerous men and they ate the scene up. I also continue to enjoy this reimagined Hound- not the whimpering and angry Hound of the book, but the more ferrel and the more black-humored one.

The Lion, the Wolf, and the Burden of Rule: There are two powers still truly at war: the Lannisters and the Starks. And the episode detailed how the two sides are waging it. I thought Robb acted 100% perfectly and correctly: you cannot allow a lord like Karstark to act out of line like that and expect others to follow. You have to remove that corruption root and stem. So I am a little perplexed if the show is couching Robb’s decision as a mistake; I hope not, when his ACTUAL mistake was to, you know, break his oath.

Meanwhile, back with the sid eiwnning the war, Tywin ahs a family and that family will do exactly as he commands while he slowly “chips away” and Robb Stark by doing nothing. Tywin is playing everyone and its about time Cersei and Tyrion learn to dance along. Everyone played that scene perfectly.

Because ruling comes with a price. Sometimes you have to marry somebody you don't like; sometimes your kids are idiots; and sometimes you have to kill the guy who killed your enemy's children. Because its EASY to criticize, but King's don't criticize. They rule. Robb and Tywin are rulling.

The Lord Commander and the Slaver: I loved the few minutes we got with Dany and her advisors; even Mormont recalling his knighting. And I loved that they kept the Grey Worm scene. I think the show is doing a BETTER job with the Selmy-Mormont relationship than the books, and even shows why Mormont is so distant; Because he’s hiding.

The KIngslayer and the Wench: You kill that. You kill the mad man who wants to burn the city down and you do it as soon as you can. You don’t wait around for others to negotiate; or to fight with honor; or to get the children to safety. No. You kill the pyromancer first and then you kill Aerys the Mad. That’s honor. And it does not matter if Arthur Dayne or Ned Stark think so or not. Because SOMEBODY had to kill Aerys. And Jaime Lannister was the only guy who had the guts to do it. And what was his reward? Scorn.

Because did any of us EVERY think Ned Stark wanted to hear Jaime’s side of the story? Really? I have been saying since I first read SoS that Jaime was right to do what he did and Ned Stark loves judging other people, to the point of absurdity.

And all the while, she is looking at him and her eyes screaming “No….” and the whole while the steam, the steam the steam… smoke smoke smoke.

Kissed by fire….

What I Am On the Fence about:

The Queen of Thorns and Hammy Writing: I like Lady Olenna and I enjoy her scenes in bite sized portions. But … every week it appears to be the same thing: Lady Olenna sits down next to an established character; the established character immediately losses all the intellect, charm, wit and danger they possessed up to the moment they met Lady Olenna and act ham-handed, clumsy, foolish and boarder-line stupid. Started with Sansa, continued with Cersei, reached ridiculous heights with Varys and culminated this week in the show utterly neutering its best character… all to make Olenna seemed smart. This week was the worst because Tyrion is the best character on the show and to make him seem tongue-tied, awkward, clumsy and intimidated by her is utterly out of place.

Again, it’s not that bad; after all, would we want just another terrible character fopr the champions of Westeros to just intellectually beat up? Of course not. At the same time- it would be nice if the characters we knew acted, sounded, spoke, or even seemed like the characters who we thought they were and not card-board cut outs. It seems rather lazy.

What I did not like:

Can’t find anything. And I am STUNNED That for the second week in a row I could not find something I did NOT like.

For three episodes in a row, the show has put up HUGE numbers! Fantastic ability to really integrate the best parts of the books into the show and do it seamlessly.

Now.. can they go four-for-four?

ThHis was the best episode of the season.

Edited by Rockroi
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I did not really love the Jon and Ygritte scene. It felt like they combined their whole romance into a single scene and was a bit rushed. But it's understandable with everything they have to juggle around.

I really liked that (perhaps due to the fact that he's been up North for a while, and away from our screens) that he finally grew some cohones. And I don't mean the cave scene either, but him standing up to Orwell. It's the first time he didn't have the cry baby look on his face. Finally growing up and maturing.

Then of course after popping the cherry and climbing the wall soon, he'll be fit for the Wall stuff in s4

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This show is starting to have a tendency to start with crappy fabricated scenes and end with awesome ones.

I don't like switching Willas for Loras, but otherwise the last scene was solid.

Usually I don't lick the boots of actors like many do, but whoever plays Jaime really nailed the emotions in that bath scene.

I don't have the energy for nitpicks. It's a tiring song.

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This was a great episode. I have absolutely no complaints about what they did. The dead babies were spooky and unexpected, but interesting nevertheless.

I'm going to have to say that my favorite scenes were Jaime's story and Stannis seeing his family. The show fans finally get to see Stannis acting like a human being.

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This show is starting to have a tendency to start with crappy fabricated scenes and end with awesome ones.

I don't like switching Willas for Loras, but otherwise the last scene was solid.

Usually I don't lick the boots of actors like many do, but whoever plays Jaime really nailed the emotions in that bath scene.

I don't have the energy for nitpicks. It's a tiring song.

Well the first scene was almost a copy of the book version so that's not really true.

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"This man was only the watcher. Hang him last so he can watch the others die."

Just.... whoa. One of the best episodes of the entire series. So many scenes were taken straight from the books and were done so incredibly well. Literally everything in this episode was amazing. I would just love to hear Beric called the Lightning Lord and the reason =)

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