[BOOK SPOILERS] Lady Talysa

[CtrlAltDel]

I read in another thread that she could take the place of Dacey Mormont. Have her dance with Robb, ask a Frey to dance, who in turn responds with anger, Cat notices, walks over and grabs his arm, feels the chainmail, tells Talisa to run, and as she gets to the door a bunch of armored Freys and Boltons bust in and bury an axe in her pregnant belly. it just makes too much sense. I'd be shocked if this isn't the way they go with it.

That's where my money lies - Talisa being merged with Dacey Mormont.

[Magjee]

I think TV Talysa dies or is exposed as an agent for Tywin, unless the Jeyne theories turn out to be true.

This is kinda fun, the show will help reveal the books.

[King Tommen]

Although there are certainly deviations that the show takes away from the books, they have been very careful to keep all the major plotlines and characters working towards the same endpoint as they do in the books. They may take some different routes to get there but to this point, everyone on the show is more or less following the path they need to be on to get where they should be in the books. Even when show characters are killed or omitted on the show where they remain alive in the books, you can clearly see that another character is being merged or taking on the role. For example, Missandei can take on whatever role Irri plays, Kovarro replaced Rakharo, they can just have another random singer do what Marillion does later one etc. If the show only cared about setting off on their own story and ignoring what happens later in the books, they would not continue to go to the trouble of meeting with GRRM constantly to ask him about where his story is set to go.

But there are some characters that you can't merge or write around. So if they are important to the future books, then we'll see the show maintain this consistency within the show. Talisa (who is filling the Jeyne Westerling role) is one of those characters. If Jeyne's story and/or whether or not she is carrying Robb's child is still relevant in TWoW and beyond, then the show will have to find a way to keep her alive. You can't merge the role of Robb's widow with another character or have someone else come in later to fill in the blanks.

So to me, Talisa's fate is tied to how important she is to future events in ASOIAF. If GRRM means to not deal with her again, then it probably stands to reason that Talisa dies at the RW because there's no point in keeping her around and it's a far more dramatic way to say goodbye to the character than have her rot at Riverrun and barely mentioned ever again.

I think it's curious to see that barring a last minute trip back to Riverrun, that it appears the Blackfish will be attending the RW. I think the odds are much stronger that the Blackfish still has a relatively big part to play in the saga so I have a hard time believing he'd be killed at the RW. Which leaves two possibilities: he either escapes somehow or he's captured.

If he escapes, I think it's probably with Talisa because there would be no other reason to include that development if it weren't to get her out of there and back to Riverrun so they could reset to the book narrative and build up their future protector/father figure relationship. Dramatically, they wouldn't just have him escaping on his own since it would be against his character to just abandon Robb to save himself. He would only be compelled to leave if ordered by Robb in order to save his wife and unborn child. If he was just going to get out by himself, they wouldn't have even bothered to have him attend, he could have just stayed back at Riverrun as he did in the books.

If he's captured, then the idea is probably for him to fill the Greatjon role and be the loyal bannerman who needs to be subdued (but not without a fight). This is a possibility since they have given him a little more of a gruffer personality and even some of the Greatjon actions (punching Karstark when he mouths off Robb for example). So they could just be looking to have him fill that role. If they wanted to reset to the book narrative, they'd have to write around that later on to somehow get him back to Riverrun but it could be done. I still think the first option is more likely.

And what to make of Talisa telling Robb she's pregnant? To me, it's a big deal and probably an important development. It is possible that they're doing this simply to have her death at the RW be more tragic but the RW is overflowing with miserable things happening to the Starks, is it entirely necessary for Robb to have to witness his wife and unborn child be butchered before going down on top of everything else? It seems awfully excessive... Remember that GRRM wrote the scene on the show where Talisa tells Robb of this and of course he's going by outlines set out by D&D but I think it would be incredibly odd to have this happen if it was not the case in the books. There is no good reason to introduce this development on the show unless Jeyne is actually pregnant in the books. It's too big of a change and sets things on a way different path that would be way too hard to write around to get back on track.

So I guess you either fall into 2 camps (I don't include the "Talisa is a spy" camp because that's ridiculous beyond words): either D&D felt that the RW wasn't tragic enough so they believed subjecting Robb and Cat to the death of Talisa and Robb's unborn child was necessary or they wanted to reveal to the audience a development that GRRM would be bringing up down the road and develop Talisa a little bit more as a result because they knew she'd still have a part to play.

[ugashep]

King Tommen, you are right that Talisa's fate will tell us a lot. I don't think the spy theory is any crazier than some of the other speculation about Jeyne though, hell we know Jeyne's mother colludes with Tywin in the books and was of Voluntene blood, it's not any wilder to speculate that they've consolidated characters and made Talisa the co-conspirator than it is to speculate the Jeyne actually was pregnant and has this great future with the Blackfish. Again, I am excited to see how it plays out on the show, because either way hopefully it will be a death to either the death of at least one or two of the theories about Talisa/Jeyne.

[go joff go]

Its going to be funny when they go with plan E and just not tell us what happens with Talisa and we won't know anymore then we already knew.

[King Tommen]

King Tommen, you are right that Talisa's fate will tell us a lot. I don't think the spy theory is any crazier than some of the other speculation about Jeyne though, hell we know Jeyne's mother colludes with Tywin in the books and was of Voluntene blood, it's not any wilder to speculate that they've consolidated characters and made Talisa the co-conspirator than it is to speculate the Jeyne actually was pregnant and has this great future with the Blackfish. Again, I am excited to see how it plays out on the show, because either way hopefully it will be a death to either the death of at least one or two of the theories about Talisa/Jeyne.

Here's the problem with this thinking though: in the books, the part that Jeyne's mother plays in the downfall of Robb Stark is extremely minimal. And in fact, if you take away her actions, you get the exact same result. Robb banging this girl and then marrying her out of guilt or honour or whatever happened was independent of any kind of "scheme" perpetrated by the Westerlings. If you told this exact same story but had Jeyne's mother do nothing, you get the same result. Which is I'm sure why when D&D looked at this storyline and ways they could possibly simplify it, they recognized that all they needed was for Robb to marry another girl and break his betrothal. The girl being from a house sworn to the Lannister's wasn't necessary, and neither was her or her family being complicit in any plot against Robb. The Bolton's, Lannister's and Frey's are the conspirators who matter, the Westerlings don't.

The only real devious action that Jeyne's mother takes is to supposedly give Jeyne the moon tea after the marriage so she wouldn't get pregnant. And if, for example it's revealed in TWoW that it didn't work (or her mom couldn't go through with it and lied about it, or Robb knocked her up when he grief-banged her before the marriage) and Jeyne got pregnant anyways, then why even go to the trouble of involving them in the conspiracy plot on the show?

Secondly, making Talisa a conspirator from the get-go is a massive deviation. it changes the entire agency of the story and puts the betrayal almost exclusively on her. If she reveals that she did all of this to fuck over Robb and have him and his mother and army killed, she instantly becomes one of the biggest villains on the show. That doesn't line up with anything that goes on in the books. Jeyne Westerling is innocent, not a knowing participant in Robb's demise.

For any of the "Talisa is a spy" theories to work, you've got to have her being in on everything and continuing to inform on Robb even after they're married (meaning she's just deep undercover and pretending to have feelings for him). First of all, there's zero motivation provided for why she would do this. She's initiating a grand massacre and bringing down an entire group of Northerners for what reason exactly? And if she's a spy, she's now gone the extra mile to just being outright cruel and vindictive by lying to Robb about being pregnant which serves no end other than to inflict more misery on him before he dies. It doesn't make one iota of sense.

[go joff go]

So what if she starts out a spy and changed her mind. How would you feel about that. You keep saying everything had to be plotted out point by point when that isn't the case. What if she starts out a spy and then the rest just sort of happened?

[ugashep]

King Tommen, as I said, one way or another this next episode should kill at least one of the memes, and for that I am truly thankful.

[shiola]

I would be surprised if she did live, I think that it's likely her whole 'story' has been added to give an extra punch to the RW. Cause, y'know, it was too cheery beforehand lol

Hahahaha, I agree with your sentiment. Love your icon by the way-- gorgeous.

My money is on Talisa taking a sword right in the tummy, where Robb's unborn child is forming. That's gruesome and sick, and just the thing the RW needs on TV to make up for the deaths of the book exclusive characters we loved (though I understand why they aren't on the show).

Just realized the Dacey thing was mentioned upthread-- that's what I was saying as well.

[King Tommen]

So what if she starts out a spy and changed her mind. How would you feel about that. You keep saying everything had to be plotted out point by point when that isn't the case. What if she starts out a spy and then the rest just sort of happened?

And so she fell in love with Robb and is pregnant with his child and just felt like she shouldn't tell him that Tywin has inside info on his movements and that they could very well be compromised? And has the show given you any scenes indicating that she at some point had a change of heart or is conflicted about what she's doing in any way? Isn't the whole theory that she's constantly writing letters to Tywin and everyone got all hot and bothered in the scene a couple episodes ago where she was writing to her mother in high Valyrian which meant she was still conspiring?

And what exactly would be the point if she was a spy before she fell in love with him and then stopped being one? What purpose would that serve? You may as well not even go down that road if you were going to drop it that quickly. She would have been doing a pretty shitty job of spying at that time since Robb was continuing to mop the floor with Tywin's armies at every turn while that was happening.

Nothing about the theory makes sense no matter which way you want to parse it in your head. Nothing.

[silentwanderer]

I do remember the conversation Tyrion had with the old Lady in Volantis and have often thought about how the support of the slaves from Volantis and particularly this Lady, who seems quite powerful and influential, may play out in the future.

The show may want to skip the distinction and make everyone in the Free Cities as eager for Dany's return as the people from Dorne are on the books.

Especially if most slave owners from Volantis are like Lady Talisa, that way I could picture her death enraging them enough to back up their slaves in the rise against the Iron Throne.

Daenerys should count on the same allies waiting for her in the latest book, albeit the lesson would be that not all slave owners are like Yunkai's.

[lunadangelo]

The show may want to skip the distinction and make everyone in the Free Cities as eager for Dany's return as the people from Dorne are on the books.

Especially if most slave owners from Volantis are like Lady Talisa, that way I could picture her death enraging them enough to back up their slaves in the rise against the Iron Throne.

Daenerys should count on the same allies waiting for her in the latest book, albeit the lesson would be that not all slave owners are like Yunkai's.

I agree, that certainly is a possibility but I personally would find that unrealistic for the above mentioned reason. Moreover, the aforementioned Triach, if I recall correctly, tried to hire the Golden Company to protect Volantis from Dany.

As for all the naysayers, your points are good, no doubt. But as a reader who loves to speculate and tries to find hints / red herrings, well, I would like to be able to continue to speculate so ..........

Is it not exactly the fact that not everything is known and that things do not always turn out they way we expect that makes these books so exceptional?

[go joff go]

And so she fell in love with Robb and is pregnant with his child and just felt like she shouldn't tell him that Tywin has inside info on his movements and that they could very well be compromised? And has the show given you any scenes indicating that she at some point had a change of heart or is conflicted about what she's doing in any way? Isn't the whole theory that she's constantly writing letters to Tywin and everyone got all hot and bothered in the scene a couple episodes ago where she was writing to her mother in high Valyrian which meant she was still conspiring?

And what exactly would be the point if she was a spy before she fell in love with him and then stopped being one? What purpose would that serve? You may as well not even go down that road if you were going to drop it that quickly. She would have been doing a pretty shitty job of spying at that time since Robb was continuing to mop the floor with Tywin's armies at every turn while that was happening.

Nothing about the theory makes sense no matter which way you want to parse it in your head. Nothing.

Hey now, you are the same guy who was proposing that Dagmer was actaully Ramsey Bolton last year with far less information, so there is no reason to be so offended by this stuff. As for motive the same motive that many characters have found themselves. The belief that you are doing something for one cause only to realize your committment to that cause isn't so airtight. Not so different from Theon, Brienne, down the road Tyrion.

[lunadangelo]

Hey now, you are the same guy who was proposing that Dagmer was actaully Ramsey Bolton last year with far less information, so there is no reason to be so offended by this stuff. As for motive the same motive that many characters have found themselves. The belief that you are doing something for one cause only to realize your committment to that cause isn't so airtight. Not so different from Theon, Brienne, down the road Tyrion.

Very well expressed and kind of funny. :cheers:

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Really, no one who came with the absurdity of Dagmer/Ramsay should be commenting about any theory being too unrealistic/outlandish. Frankly, that is about as wacky as it gets, with the possible exception of Ros as fake Arya.

[go joff go]

Ros as fake Arya is still in play. That might have been a fake Ros that Joffrey killed.

[Winter In My Heart]

The spy theory and Ros as F Arya is probably the worst theories I've heard for this season. No. Scratch that. Talisa Stoneheart is just as horrible.

[silentwanderer]

The show may want to skip the distinction and make everyone in the Free Cities as eager for Dany's return as the people from Dorne are on the books.

Especially if most slave owners from Volantis are like Lady Talisa, that way I could picture her death enraging them enough to back up their slaves in the rise against the Iron Throne.

Daenerys should count on the same allies waiting for her in the latest book, albeit the lesson would be that not all slave owners are like Yunkai's.

I agree, that certainly is a possibility but I personally would find that unrealistic for the above mentioned reason. Moreover, the aforementioned Triach, if I recall correctly, tried to hire the Golden Company to protect Volantis from Dany.

I'm not talking about the Triarch but the Martell from Dorne and Jon Connigton's men.

I could add Victarion's fleet and the Company Tyrion signed a contract with too, but the ones in the slave zone are the first two.

[lunadangelo]

I'm not talking about the Triarch but the Martell from Dorne and Jon Connigton's men.

I could add Victarion's fleet and the Company Tyrion signed a contract with too, but the ones in the slave zone are the first two.

I am not sure I am following you. Are you suggesting that there is no slavery in Volantis and therefore their society is similar to Dorne's?

[King Tommen]

Hey now, you are the same guy who was proposing that Dagmer was actaully Ramsey Bolton last year with far less information, so there is no reason to be so offended by this stuff. As for motive the same motive that many characters have found themselves. The belief that you are doing something for one cause only to realize your committment to that cause isn't so airtight. Not so different from Theon, Brienne, down the road Tyrion.

Oh yeah, the Ramsay/Dagmer thing. I certainly didn't propose it but for a while, I did subscribe to it as a possibility. I jumped off the bandwagon closer to the end of the season though when I had more information. The only reason I got wrapped up in it was because I could not reconcile how they would be showing the razing of Winterfell, have Roose tell Robb that his bastard was on the way to retake Winterfell and knowing that they had not cast an actor to play Ramsay in S2. That was the only explanation I could think of (it didn't occur to me for some time that they wouldn't even bother introducing Ramsay and leave the entire thing a mystery). In any case, that theory was dead wrong so I learned my lesson to not read into tiny little things on the show to the degree that people were doing. The show doesn't function that way and at this point in its production, we should be more in tune with that.