[BOOK SPOILERS] Lady Talysa

[Khal-a-bunga]

Talisa has almost double the screen time of Catelyn in S2 and five times that in S3. Yet we know almost nothing about her, she's still a mystery.

Where are you getting your "facts", because neither of these "facts" is true... Talisa has nowhere near the screen time that Catelyn had in season two, and even if Catelyn hasn't had much to do this season, she's still been more heavily featured than Talisa. So you're just plain wrong.

Funny how so many of the people who actually believe in the spy theory are the ones calling D&D bad writers. It's also funny that, for how (apparently) knowledgeable so many of you are in regards to writing (in general; though we're obviously talking specifically about television writing right now), you aren't even using the term 'plot hole' appropriately.

But first things first - let's address the fact that a lot of you are saying that there's no way Talisa (ergo, all women) could "realistically" travel with an army during medieval times (which A Song of Ice & Fire roughly approximates)... This is simply not true.

http://www.medievalw...o/#organisation

http://www.megapathd...man Warrior.pdf

Read them or don't, as they're not specifically focused on women who would travel with military camps during these times, but more focused on women who actively took place in battle (of which there were a lot of them). Let's also keep in mind that George himself has women who follow the soldiers so they can assist in the aftermath of a battle; the Silent Sisters.

Why aren't they being raped? Because the men respect their position within the Faith of the Seven? These are Northmen, and by and large worship the Old Gods, thus why would they care about the importance of the Silent Sisters in relation to anything other than their own carnal needs? PLOT HOLE!!!

...oh wait... We forgot to look at what a plot hole even is...

According to TV Tropes:

http://tvtropes.org/...p/Main/PlotHole

Read carefully (or skim it, even) and you'll see that Talisa couldn't be considered a "plot hole", but rather...

http://tvtropes.org/...ionDistillation

And since we don't know how long Talisa has been helping wounded soldiers, how she got to that location (she seemed to know about The Crag, so it stands to reason that she was somewhat familiar with the area, and possibly some of the people in it), or how many other women are following the army itself (as it would be historically accurate for prostitutes to follow along with a medieval army, in addition to cooks, etc.), all I see are people who want to talk negatively about the show, the character, D&D, and/or all of them jumping to conclusions (and using incorrect terminology in the meantime).

Not impossible doesn't equate to logical. Certainly, it is not impossible that a random noble woman could have at some time in history worked as a nurse without getting raped, kidnapped or ransomed and somehow found money to pay for her own supplies without getting robbed of that money...what with her being alone in a war zone full of desperate, starving people...

But, why not come up with something that is a little more believable than "not impossible" for a storyline?

What indication does the show give that the men are "desperate" and "starving"? Why should we assume that any soldier would be more interested in raping a healer than protecting them? If there are already whores traveling with the army, what purpose would it serve to rape someone? Robb has shown himself to be the kind of ruler that wouldn't stand for that type of action - he doesn't even allow Lannister captives to be mistreated. You're the one making misguided assumptions here.

It's also important to note that - until Robb calls her out on it - it's unlikely that Talisa would have told anyone she was a noble. She didn't even tell Robb that she had noble family origins until she was called out on it. So, in that case, what would be the point of kidnapping and ransoming her? It's less believable to think that most of these soldiers are even literate enough to pull something like that off, really.

But the big thing I take issue with is that the Northmen are being considered these bloodthirsty, rape machines. Throughout history, the atrocities of war are well-known, but those who usually suffer the most are those on the losing side of the conflict. Why would a soldier rape someone traveling with the camp? Especially someone who is there to help them. Logic, indeed.

[Cas Stark]

Talisa is not a warrior queen riding into battle, nor is she a Silent Sister, she is presented as a lone woman nurse in the show, unaffiliated with anyone. So, these examples are not relevant to whether it makes sense that a lone woman by herself can travel around a war zone, buying supplies, getting transported to the battles and so forth.

Rape is part of war, I don't see what is so difficult to understand about that. She is not a Silent Sister so she would not be afforded that protection but we see in the war that even the Silent Sisters are raped, children are raped and murdered. How is it that Talisa has been able to stay safe...she amazingly is able to stay out of the battles when they're occuring, away from the raping and pillaging part of war and only miraculously shows up after the battles are over where her nursing is highly prized? Oh, okay, well that makes total sense then. LOL.

[King Cheops]

I suggest we all stop arguing with this jackanape who clearly only has one thing on his mind and report him as I just did.

Seriously, seek some help for your obvious sexual issues.

[Cas Stark]

I suggest we all stop arguing with this jackanape who clearly only has one thing on his mind and report him as I just did.

Seriously, seek some help for your obvious sexual issues.

LMAO. You reported me for saying that Talisa's character arc is totally unrealistic? Awesome.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Talisa is not a warrior queen riding into battle, nor is she a Silent Sister, she is presented as a lone woman nurse in the show, unaffiliated with anyone. So, these examples are not relevant to whether it makes sense that a lone woman by herself can travel around a war zone, buying supplies, getting transported to the battles and so forth.

Rape is part of war, I don't see what is so difficult to understand about that. She is not a Silent Sister so she would not be afforded that protection but we see in the war that even the Silent Sisters are raped, children are raped and murdered. How is it that Talisa has been able to stay safe...she amazingly is able to stay out of the battles when they're occuring, away from the raping and pillaging part of war and only miraculously shows up after the battles are over where her nursing is highly prized? Oh, okay, well that makes total sense then. LOL.

How do you even know how long she's been following this army? You don't; you're making assumptions. Perhaps this is the first time she's offered her services after a battle. Maybe she has been continuing her medicinal study at The Crag (which is why she's so familiar with it), and traveled to the site of the battle to help the wounded (which is much more in character for her than what you're proposing). And I noted above that those articles focused on women who fought in battles, but that's not the entirety of their subject matter, which you seem to have ignored (along with everything else I posted). Hate away; it doesn't bother me. But don't act like you're right, just because it suits your stance on how this particular story line has been adapted. Going by your logic, Arya should have been raped countless times by now during her travels, and yet I don't see you taking issue with that.

Honestly, your whole stance is a bit misogynistic for my tastes. It's like you think that every soldier would have one thing on their mind - raping women. I highly doubt that was the case. It was a brutal time, if we're using our own medieval history as a basis, but we wouldn't have survived long as a species if our faults weren't often tempered by our better nature.

If nothing else, the fact that Robb is such a good person should be enough reason as to why Talisa was able to travel freely among the men. He is the King in the North, after all, and since he didn't allow prisoners to be tortured, what makes you think he would allow his men to rape and pillage followers in their own camp? Talk about making total sense...

[A Redeemed Hound]

I still cannot understand why they made Talisa instead of Jeyne Westerling. Would be silly IMO if they did that and just kill her at the RW. There has to be a logical reason they did this. Is it possible that the Blackfish is also at the wedding and saves Talisa when the poop hits the fan? He escapes with her and flees back to Riverrun? Then they will be set up to follow the books again.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I still cannot understand why they made Talisa instead of Jeyne Westerling. Would be silly IMO if they did that and just kill her at the RW. There has to be a logical reason they did this. Is it possible that the Blackfish is also at the wedding and saves Talisa when the poop hits the fan? He escapes with her and flees back to Riverrun? Then is will be set up to follow the books again.

I'm guessing they tried to make the character more interesting and appealing to the viewer, while also making a more reasonable storyline for aged up characters, but it had its problems. I guess they wanted to make it an actual love story since Robb is actually on screen as opposed to coming back one day all like "Hey mom I fucked up here's my wife" but it didn't work out as well as they probably hoped.

As to why not keep her a Westerling...I don't know. Perhaps there is some strange unseen reason why she's from Volantis, but it could be simply as shallow as she's an exotic chick from an unfamiliar land and thus more appealing.

[Cas Stark]

Arya has a lot of plot armour for a 10 year old girl in a war.

I don't get what Robb being a nice guy has to do with anything...she's a war, she was tending to the Lannister men when Robb arrived which indicates to me that she came from somewhere else--e.g. SOUTH--before the battle, and so she would have been dealing with Lannister forces, not Stark forces. If you think the Mountain's men would treat a Voltanis noblewoman nurse really well, okaky then.

But whatever, if people want to defend a poorly plotted, poorly conceived, poorly written, poorly acted, unrealistically modern character dropped in to the series just because D & D did it, then great. I'm glad you think Talisa from Volantis is such a wonderful addition to Westeros.

[Winter In My Heart]

I don't understand why people are so venomously defending a horribly written, acted, and very modern character. It baffles me.

[TomBadgerlock]

I still cannot understand why they made Talisa instead of Jeyne Westerling. Would be silly IMO if they did that and just kill her at the RW. There has to be a logical reason they did this. Is it possible that the Blackfish is also at the wedding and saves Talisa when the poop hits the fan? He escapes with her and flees back to Riverrun? Then they will be set up to follow the books again.

That's my personal favourite theory because I like the idea of Jeyne being pregnant in the books. Although I recall seeing Elio saying he was 99% certain that the clues relating to that were just a mistake. Failing that, or failing Jeyne having so other relevance in the series to come, I expect she'll just die.

[TomBadgerlock]

I don't understand why people are so venomously defending a horribly written, acted, and very modern character. It baffles me.

It baffles me that so many people think they can label things "horribly" done when they are non-objective. If you've read and the liked the books, you can't pretend to be objective about the change. No doubt you'll smother me with anecdotal cries of "my unsullied friend says its shit etc etc", but seriously, I very much doubt that the Unsullied in general think that Talisa is "horribly written [and], acted". And they are the objective ones.

[Cas Stark]

It baffles me that so many people think they can label things "horribly" done when they are non-objective. If you've read and the liked the books, you can't pretend to be objective about the change. No doubt you'll smother me with anecdotal cries of "my unsullied friend says its shit etc etc", but seriously, I very much doubt that the Unsullied in general think that Talisa is "horribly written [and], acted". And they are the objective ones.

I only read here and Television without Pity, and neither place is Talisa very popular, from what I gather on the TV viewer only threads Robb Stark is not very popular either given his choice to marry for love. Maybe the non book readers who don't post anywhere think its a wonderful love story, I don't know, I don't find the two actors have much on screen charisma together when compared to Dany/Drogo which also hampers their plot line.

I don't see how a truly objective analysis isn't going to admit that she's a modern character when the actress HERSELF says its a modern love story the audience can get behind?!

[Winter In My Heart]

It baffles me that so many people think they can label things "horribly" done when they are non-objective. If you've read and the liked the books, you can't pretend to be objective about the change. No doubt you'll smother me with anecdotal cries of "my unsullied friend says its shit etc etc", but seriously, I very much doubt that the Unsullied in general think that Talisa is "horribly written [and], acted". And they are the objective ones.

Wow so someone who reads the books can't have an opinion or show any criticism at the show. Wow. Okay.

There are changes I like and think are done well but Talisa just isn't. From what I've read on the forums and heard from show only viewers I speak with they don't care for her character. Some even say she looks out of place. What's that say about the writing if even they think she's oddly out of place compared to all the other characters. This is a modern/cliche love story there's no getting around that. If the actress even thinks its modern (which it sounds like from two interviews I saw her in) then seriously, how are you going to sit there and argue when actors themselves even call it modern??

[superdeluxe]

I still cannot understand why they made Talisa instead of Jeyne Westerling. Would be silly IMO if they did that and just kill her at the RW. There has to be a logical reason they did this. Is it possible that the Blackfish is also at the wedding and saves Talisa when the poop hits the fan? He escapes with her and flees back to Riverrun? Then they will be set up to follow the books again.

That is the only way to redeem this. I think her being preggers and dying at RW is a cheap way to generate more shock and sympathy.

[King Cheops]

I don't understand why people are so venomously defending a horribly written, acted, and very modern character. It baffles me.

Because maybe some of us prefer the change compared to Jeyne Westerling? Writing and acting is very subjective because it is based on personal opinion. However I will continue to call out you and Cas on your bullshit reasons for criticism. Her not getting raped is not a valid reason to claim that D&D are horrible writers.

There are plenty of historical examples of "modern" women throughout history. I recommend your read up about them at some point. That being said they tended to be the exception rather than the norm which is what made them so impressive. In fact, I'd argue that Talisa is better than Jeyne because of the fact that Talisa is like a modern woman. Robb was attracted to her strength and intelligence because he had never met a woman like her before. She was different and intriguing and someone who could be his equal.

In terms of backstory we know that Talisa was a noble from Volantis. She almost lost her brother to drowning but a slave saved him with first aid and that she resents slavery because of this. As book readers we can infer that the reason she is in Westeros is because she wanted to get away from the institution of slavery which leaves her two options 1) Braavos, and 2) Westeros. As someone interested in helping those who need medical attention the War of 5 Kings would make a good place to help. We don't know if she was in the Lannister or the Stark camp but we do know that she only cares about helping wounded soldiers from either side.

Compare that with Jeyne Westerling. Jeyne is just like any other noble girl in Westeros. Her backstory is that she is a Westerling and that she nursed Robb back to health (probably with the help of the Maester). While the Westerlings themselves arguably have an interesting backstory it is not her backstory. She literally does nothing except be pretty and courteous.

LMAO. You reported me for saying that Talisa's character arc is totally unrealistic? Awesome.

No I reported you for harping on your delusion that all unaccompanied women in Westeros would be raped instantly. Come up with some new and less offensive reasons for why her arc is "totally unrealistic" and maybe you won't come off as so into victimizing women.

[Cas Stark]

No I reported you for harping on your delusion that all unaccompanied women in Westeros would be raped instantly. Come up with some new and less offensive reasons for why her arc is "totally unrealistic" and maybe you won't come off as so into victimizing women.

I never said anywhere in any post that she would be "raped instantly" and I have given numerous reasons why her story and her character are not believable within the context of the series beyond the fact of her not being raped. I have as well criticized specific aspects of the writing and the acting in addition to the unrealistically modern nature of her story.

I won't stoop to your level, so I will leave it at that. Maybe you're are the one who need to reflect on your own shortcomings and/or obsessions.

[Winter In My Heart]

Wow so Jeyne being 'pretty and courteous', which is how most women in that setting act makes her bland compared to Talisa who is an idiot to back sass a king when he doesn't know she's a noblewoman. Any other king would probably have her locked up or killed. She's damn lucky it was Robb instead of Joffrey or Stannis she questioned. And no it's not unrealistic that she wasn't raped. But the fact there has been no consequences for her basically traveling all by herself, that's unrealistic. People aren't as nice as Robb. If he hadn't known she was there, who's to say one of Bolton's men wouldn't have raped or harmed her? Considering how horrible that family is I could see his men doing that. It's unrealistic that she can travel all alone and by herself and go seemingly unharmed. It's not that she hasn't been raped. It's that nothing bad has happened to her when she's a foreigner, is all alone, and can go traipsing around battlefields.

And who cares why she hates slavery? Yes that's the only semi back story we get but it's unrealistic her family would just let her run off to Westeros. If she loved her brother so much why did she leave? This character just makes no sense. Say what you may about Jeyne but at least she fits into the CONTEXT of this setting where women are NOT modern. And no Talisa isn't better because she's modern seeing as this ISN'T a modern series.

Eta; but it's whatever at this point. The apologists want to nitpick tiny points someone makes and ignore the bigger ones. THEN they want to say there's not good argument because they've ignored all the best things that have already been mentioned.

[Cas Stark]

Wow so Jeyne being 'pretty and courteous', which is how most women in that setting act makes her bland compared to Talisa who is an idiot to back sass a king when he doesn't know she's a noblewoman. Any other king would probably have her locked up or killed. She's damn lucky it was Robb instead of Joffrey or Stannis she questioned. And no it's not unrealistic that she wasn't raped. But the fact there has been no consequences for her basically traveling all by herself, that's unrealistic. People aren't as nice as Robb. If he hadn't known she was there, who's to say one of Bolton's men wouldn't have raped or harmed her? Considering how horrible that family is I could see his men doing that. It's unrealistic that she can travel all alone and by herself and go seemingly unharmed. It's not that she hasn't been raped. It's that nothing bad has happened to her when she's a foreigner, is all alone, and can go traipsing around battlefields.

And who cares why she hates slavery? Yes that's the only semi back story we get but it's unrealistic her family would just let her run off to Westeros. If she loved her brother so much why did she leave? This character just makes no sense. Say what you may about Jeyne but at least she fits into the CONTEXT of this setting where women are NOT modern. And no Talisa isn't better because she's modern seeing as this ISN'T a modern series.

Joff for sure would have shot her with a crossbow or put her in prison. The Mountain would have raped her on the spot. Tywin Lannister, may have had her tongue cut out, or whipped her. Stannis, I guess it depends on where Davos was at the time, LOL. Renly would have laughted and given her a peach, I will give him that. Robert Baratheon would probably not harm her either. Roose Bolton, definitely cut out her tongue. Balon Greyjoy would either make her pay the iron price or make her a salt wife.

Those are poor odds for mocking the king and not having a bad response, all in my un-objective, book reading opinion, that is.

It's possible a better actress could have delivered some of Talisa's lines with a little more sophistication and not tried to be SO sassy, possibly a more morose war weary type of line reading would have been less off putting. Again, my personal opinion.

[Winter In My Heart]

Joff for sure would have shot her with a crossbow or put her in prison. The Mountain would have raped her on the spot. Tywin Lannister, may have had her tongue cut out, or whipped her. Stannis, I guess it depends on where Davos was at the time, LOL. Renly would have laughted and given her a peach, I will give him that. Robert Baratheon would probably not harm her either. Roose Bolton, definitely cut out her tongue. Balon Greyjoy would either make her pay the iron price or make her a salt wife.

Those are poor odds for mocking the king and not having a bad response, all in my un-objective, book reading opinion, that is.

It's possible a better actress could have delivered some of Talisa's lines with a little more sophistication and not tried to be SO sassy, possibly a more morose war weary type of line reading would have been less off putting. Again, my personal opinion.

I agree Renly and Robert are the only other ones I don't think would have harmed her.

Honestly I don't know if another actress would have done better. I once read someone thinks Oona is trying to hard in her acting and trying to overpower the scenes she is in with Madden. Perhaps that has something to do with it? From the interviews the actress doesn't really seem snobby.. But who knows.. Maybe her roles from other things has let fame and wanting to be in the spotlight go to her head.. I don't know. But honestly I think another actress might have done better. One that has that certain charm/talent to make the writing not look so bad. And maybe take a different acting approach that would make it less horrible.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I don't think Oona is a bad actress per se, I just think she was definitely not the right actress for the role. If you're going to deviate a lot and create new things, I think you really need to have a very strong and likable actor behind the part.