[BOOK SPOILERS] Lady Talysa

[Winter In My Heart]

This is how I feel. I can understand that maybe they want to put more of a face to the girl who Robb fell for, to make it seem more believable that he broke his vows. To be honest, there are scenes that I've very much enjoyed Oona as Talisa. However, I also feel that the way they've changed the role is not yet justified by the show, by quality or by plot development. I'm anxious to see how they handle the whole pregnant/RW/later events thing, but as of now I don't see why they've made the change other than the small and obvious reasoning I posted above. I think that they may have a plan for her that will redeem the changes and admittedly at times the poor characterization, but as of now I don't see it. The character is hardly horrible/amazing, though. The unsullied I know have had absolutely no issues with her, and I do really believe that it's way more common that book readers dislike her than the unsullied.

I do agree with this. I know it's going to be more of the book readers who dislike it my only issue it when people come here saying that all unsullied people like/love the character. On other sites (that's in no way related to the series) I've talked to show only viewers who basically insult her and say how she's not a good character. Obviously I'm not going to go implying all unsullied hate her, but the consensus I've gathered is that she is either disliked/hated or they generally don't give a crap about her. As of what we've seen in the show there's really nothing to love IMO. She's just.. average. I think there's a lot better actresses in comparison to her in the show. To be honest there really isn't one scene I liked her performance in. (And honestly I think Madden and Michelle is a better actor than her so they're the only reasons I like a scene that she happens to be in.) But that's just me. I just find it funny everyone wants to argue (which I know I was apart of) how modern she is. Even Oona thinks Talisa and the love story is modern which says volumes to the fact that it is. And that's one of my big issues, is that the story is in fact so modern.

But I am interested in what's going to happen. I think, as well as hope, she dies at the RW with Robb. I'm curious to see if she does live though and if that implies that Jeyne may actually become important and more of a character in future books.

[Winter In My Heart]

I have to wonder if the two of you have ever watched anything else on television or film, because you two seem to be awfully hung up on how "unrealistic" Talisa being there in the aftermath of that battle is, and nothing else. Have you ever questioned why so many characters seem to end up in the right place at the right time (or vice versa), or why things always seem to happen in the nick of time?

For the most part, your criticism has focused on that introductory scene, and not a single scene that has followed. Sure, you've given vague and unspecific answers to why you don't like the character or that segment of Robb's story line - "poorly written, poorly acted, poorly directed" - but you don't actually go into any kind of critical details as to why you feel that way. Specific examples, and reasoning as to why it's not any good would go a long way towards you two seeing that we're not trying to be "apologists" or "uppity", but that seems to be too much to ask. And again, I'm referring to any scene other than her first scene with Robb.

For instance, what are your thoughts on the guy who was traveling with Talisa when we first met her? The person who was leading the horse pulling the wagon? What of him? His presence would seem to indicate that she was, in fact, not traveling there by herself, would it not? And then a good portion of your argument falls apart. We could discuss that, but I'm sure we won't. Because all those of you who are so passionately against her want to do is repeat the same thing ad nauseum, instead of having an actual discussion. And also because you'd likely label it a "plot hole" when it's abundantly clear that you don't understand what a plot hole is...

And after that initial scene, what is it about Talisa that makes her writing so terrible, or her (Oona Chaplin's) writing so awful? You're purposely ignoring any actual criticism, so you can continue to do that, or you can just continue to call those of us willing to discuss this character and plot line "uppity", and label us as "apologists".

I have no opinion of a guy who's not shown but only once and never shown again.

And to be honest I'm tired of arguing the same things. Many things have been posted on numerous threads aside from this one why the writing is not good. I haven't seen you list any reasons why it's oh so great and superior to anything Martin could write. But just to give an example of a scene, I hated the Lannister boys scene. She came off stuck up to me. I don't know if it was the facial exp<b></b>ressions the actress makes added in with the lines or what, but she didn't seem all that kind and caring to me when she spoke to them.

And it is kind of uppity when you want to claim how she's better because she's modern when in fact this series isn't supposed to be a modern one. I don't understand the logic in that.

[Cas Stark]

She's going to die at the RW. The very fact that Oona has been so adament in what a great modern love story they have cemented for me that she's not a spy and so she will have to die. I doubt Oona is going to go to the trouble of directly trolling the audience by giving misleading TV interviews where she gushes about the modern romance that the audience should get behind all the while knowing her character is really a Lannister spy.

As for the random nameless extra leading the horse, there is no reason to believe he was traveling with Talisa, if he was, he should have been seen in subsequent scenes, and he never appeared again. She has always appeared alone.

Why doesn't she know where Winterfell is for god's sake? She's queen in the North. For what possible reason did the writers throw that line in there?

Why has she never apologized to Robb or Cat or anyone for the massive strain she put on Robb by marrying him and causing him to lose part of his army and lose face with his bannermen?

For that matter, why did she even care about marrying Robb? She's a modern, independent woman who is anti war to boot, wouldn't it have been more in line with her characterization to be his mistress, thus, preventing the breech of his men and likely causing the war to drag on? She never ever mentions marriage to him or children. She has no family in Westeros who would be scandalized if she didn't marry Robb but was his mistress at least until he won the war.

[Khal-a-bunga]

I have no opinion of a guy who's not shown but only once and never shown again.

And to be honest I'm tired of arguing the same things. Many things have been posted on numerous threads aside from this one why the writing is not good. I haven't seen you list any reasons why it's oh so great and superior to anything Martin could write. But just to give an example of a scene, I hated the Lannister boys scene. She came off stuck up to me. I don't know if it was the facial expressions the actress makes added in with the lines or what, but she didn't seem all that kind and caring to me when she spoke to them.

And it is kind of uppity when you want to claim how she's better because she's modern when in fact this series isn't supposed to be a modern one. I don't understand the logic in that.

Shall we play 'Name That Fallacy!' with this entire statement? You've done more to discount your own opinion with this one post than I ever could.

You know what? Let's play. We'll go line-by-line here...

(Paraphrasing, here):

"I have no opinion about a guy who shows up only once and is never seen again."

Would that be because of the fact that he may contradict the stance that she was traveling through this battlefield alone and unaccompanied, which is a major point that people who dislike Talisa like to make when discussing how "horrible" and "unrealistic" she is? Probably.

Then you go on to say that, because it's been done before, you'll conveniently skip past coming up with any actual criticism. And after that, you claim that you...

"Haven't seen [me] list any reasons about why it's 'So great, and superior to anything Martin could write'..."

Except, I never said that. In fact, no one is this entire thread (or any other that I've read or taken part in) has said that. I did say that I prefer Talisa - as a character - to Jeyne Westerling. Because I do. Jeyne was a walking, talking plot point, and I caught on to that from the second she was introduced.

Then you go on to list her facial expression as the reason for why you hated that scene between Talisa and Martin & Willem Lannister. She wasn't "kind and caring", and yet she's taking care of their wounds... Her performance is bad because you "didn't like her lines" (what about them didn't you like, exactly) and because of you feel that she's "stuck up". Okay...

I also never claimed (and again, don't think anyone has) that she is "better" because she is "modern".

So - as it concerns both this post and several posts made by yourself and Cas Stark in this topic - we've got six very common logical fallacies:

Begging the Question (otherwise known as a Circular Argument)

* Pretending to know much (and I'm also included in this one) about how things worked and operated in the aftermath of a medieval battle, when we clearly don't. Not to mention that this story takes place in a fantasy world... *

Fallacy of Division

* Some women were known to have been raped in the aftermath of medieval battles, therefore that is the case with all women who found themselves in that situation. *

False Dilemma

* Either Talisa is a spy, or none of her story line makes sense (the spy theory, in and of itself, doesn't make sense to me).*

Non Sequitur

* Talisa must be a spy, because she was writing letters. *

Red Herring

* So the number of interviews Oona Chaplin has done pertaining to her role as Talisa is relevant, to this discussion, why exactly? Wouldn't it stand to reason that that has more direct correlation with how relatively small her role is, rather than the fact that she isn't getting interviewed because people don't like her character (.....................)? *

And obviously, your latest, the Straw Man Argument, which shouldn't require any explanation.

[Winter In My Heart]

Wow seeing as I never said much involving the Talisa spy theory there's really no point in responding.

It's funny how people want to keep rehashing everything. There's numerous posts in, not just this thread, but many threads of how the character isn't all that great? This is just starting to feel like a circle that never ends so there's no point to continually repeat oneself.

And yes there was someone who said she was better because she's modern.

If Talisa did in fact have someone protecting her it makes sense they would be actually shown, instead of just her riding on the back if some cart, and even given a name. The actor wouldn't need any lines just some sort of appearance.

And wow okay.. So on this site you need to list every tiny detail you don't like a scene.. Yes she tended to their wounds but the way she ACTED towards them and how she SPOKE towards them came off snobby. Someone kind and caring isn't going to act uppity and superior to someone. It matters little that she's tending their wounds if she is basically belittling them. Obviously that was my personal vibe I got from her. I can understand if people saw that scene differently but it's ridiculous to discredit my not liking it because 'oh not liking the way the actress handled it is a horrible reason'. I never said it was the best reason but my inference of the scene was that she acted snobby towards two boys much younger than herself.

But whatever because I don't like a character my opinion 'doesn't matter'. I could care less if someone likes the character but to use idiotic reasons as to why she's better even though her storyline is horribly modern and definitely worse than other characters is beyond me.

[Cas Stark]

Shall we play 'Name That Fallacy!' with this entire statement? You've done more to discount your own opinion with this one post than I ever could.

You know what? Let's play. We'll go line-by-line here...

(Paraphrasing, here):

"I have no opinion about a guy who shows up only once and is never seen again."

Would that be because of the fact that he may contradict the stance that she was traveling through this battlefield alone and unaccompanied, which is a major point that people who dislike Talisa like to make when discussing how "horrible" and "unrealistic" she is? Probably.

Then you go on to say that, because it's been done before, you'll conveniently skip past coming up with any actual criticism. And after that, you claim that you...

"Haven't seen [me] list any reasons about why it's 'So great, and superior to anything Martin could write'..."

Except, I never said that. In fact, no one is this entire thread (or any other that I've read or taken part in) has said that. I did say that I prefer Talisa - as a character - to Jeyne Westerling. Because I do. Jeyne was a walking, talking plot point, and I caught on to that from the second she was introduced.

Then you go on to list her facial expression as the reason for why you hated that scene between Talisa and Martin & Willem Lannister. She wasn't "kind and caring", and yet she's taking care of their wounds... Her performance is bad because you "didn't like her lines" (what about them didn't you like, exactly) and because of you feel that she's "stuck up". Okay...

I also never claimed (and again, don't think anyone has) that she is "better" because she is "modern".

So - as it concerns both this post and several posts made by yourself and Cas Stark in this topic - we've got six very common logical fallacies:

Begging the Question (otherwise known as a Circular Argument)

* Pretending to know much (and I'm also included in this one) about how things worked and operated in the aftermath of a medieval battle, when we clearly don't. Not to mention that this story takes place in a fantasy world... *

Fallacy of Division

* Some women were known to have been raped in the aftermath of medieval battles, therefore that is the case with all women who found themselves in that situation. *

False Dilemma

* Either Talisa is a spy, or none of her story line makes sense (the spy theory, in and of itself, doesn't make sense to me).*

Non Sequitur

* Talisa must be a spy, because she was writing letters. *

Red Herring

* So the number of interviews Oona Chaplin has done pertaining to her role as Talisa is relevant, to this discussion, why exactly? Wouldn't it stand to reason that that has more direct correlation with how relatively small her role is, rather than the fact that she isn't getting interviewed because people don't like her character (.....................)? *

And obviously, your latest, the Straw Man Argument, which shouldn't require any explanation.

I respectfully suggest that it may be you who doesn't understand all the terms you are throwing around, and further will comment that its not really realistic to ask people to provide a line by line analysis of the script going to back to last year in order that they and their opinions not be treated in a condescending manner. People may obsess over details, but that is taking things a little too far, in my opinion.

I'm glad you enjoy Talisa's character. We will have to agree to disagree on the rest of your post, especially your understanding and use of the bolded terms and how they apply to this discussion. Numerous, specific issues have been raised in this thread and in other threads about the same subject. If you choose to dismiss them, that is certainly your perogative.