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Aarnikotka

[BOOK SPOILERS] Lady Talysa

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How is that possible? What exactly did Jeyne do in the books? I'm not a fan of Talisa (I blame poor writing, not the character itself), but to say that...

All I'm saying is that in the books the way Jeyne ended up being his wife was believable and also devious. In book 4 she shows real loyalty and love towards Robb (if that really is her and there wasn't a switch). Granted she doesn't really do much, but the way she fits into the story is very good, which makes her a good character. Meanwhile, in GoT... Hey, this foreign from Volantis randomly shows up, talks like an equal to me and thus I make her my queen, even though I risk losing one of my most powerful allies. Hurr durr.

The situations in which they end up together are very different, thus making Jeyne superior to Talisa.

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Jeyne is a very tertiary character in the books. Not much more than a plot device, to be honest.

In contrast, Talisa is a very major character. She has about 5 times more sceen time than say Catelyn or anyone else. Hell Talisa's ass alone has more sceen time than Catelyn this season.

That's why I don't think she can just die straight out. Something big is going to happen, maybe spy reveal, maybe not.

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All I'm saying is that in the books the way Jeyne ended up being his wife was believable and also devious. In book 4 she shows real loyalty and love towards Robb (if that really is her and there wasn't a switch). Granted she doesn't really do much, but the way she fits into the story is very good, which makes her a good character. Meanwhile, in GoT... Hey, this foreign from Volantis randomly shows up, talks like an equal to me and thus I make her my queen, even though I risk losing one of my most powerful allies. Hurr durr.

The situations in which they end up together are very different, thus making Jeyne superior to Talisa.

That doesn't make her a good character in my opinion, but a good plot device. She's there to be Robb's mistake and something that people talk about and move around, but that's it. She's like a suitcase in a spies movie.

Again, I'm not a fan of Talisa, but the character itself is good. About "You talk to me like an equal, I make you my queen" and "risk losing allies", this is a very common recurrence. It may sound unbelievable, but I study psychology and I also read a lot on the matter of human psychology, and this has happened to kings and queens, emperors, tough teachers, high military officers, etc.

Someone is stronger than them, so that person is already different and charming. It takes away some pressure and lets the "king" relax and take a different role, even a bit on the regressive side.

And when this strong person becomes infatuated, nothing else matters, they become isolated, all their decisions are made having the other person in mind, etc.

This behaviour happens in both sexes as well.

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Jeyne is a very tertiary character in the books. Not much more than a plot device, to be honest.

In contrast, Talisa is a very major character. She has about 5 times more sceen time than say Catelyn or anyone else. Hell Talisa's ass alone has more sceen time than Catelyn this season.

That's why I don't think she can just die straight out. Something big is going to happen, maybe spy reveal, maybe not.

OK, so this is just ridiculous. Talisa is definitely there moe than Jeyne that's for sure but, Catelyn has had more screentime then Talisa this season, even if its only by about 10 seconds. Talisa really isnt a major character. Most of the time she's just in the backround, and she's only been in about 10 episodes.

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That doesn't make her a good character in my opinion, but a good plot device. She's there to be Robb's mistake and something that people talk about and move around, but that's it. She's like a suitcase in a spies movie.

Again, I'm not a fan of Talisa, but the character itself is good. About "You talk to me like an equal, I make you my queen" and "risk losing allies", this is a very common recurrence. It may sound unbelievable, but I study psychology and I also read a lot on the matter of human psychology, and this has happened to kings and queens, emperors, tough teachers, high military officers, etc.

Someone is stronger than them, so that person is already different and charming. It takes away some pressure and lets the "king" relax and take a different role, even a bit on the regressive side.

And when this strong person becomes infatuated, nothing else matters, they become isolated, all their decisions are made having the other person in mind, etc.

This behaviour happens in both sexes as well.

Yes, that happens. However, due to the fact that Robb is Ned's son and Catelyn reflects in the books about how he has inherited his sense of duty and honor (a point which I think has come up during the show), him marrying Talisa is completely contrary to his character. Ned wouldn't forsake his vow, thus Robb wouldn't either.

With Jeyne, it's quite a different matter. They end up in bed together because she's been taking care of him, he finds out about Winterfell and one thing leads to another and the only reason he marries her is for her honor. In the show, he's pissed off because Catelyn let Jaime go and thus has some comfort sex with Talisa.

You may say that "Yea, but Ned had a bastard", however, depending on whether L+R=J is true or not... Anyway...

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Yes, that happens. However, due to the fact that Robb is Ned's son and Catelyn reflects in the books about how he has inherited his sense of duty and honor (a point which I think has come up during the show), him marrying Talisa is completely contrary to his character. Ned wouldn't forsake his vow, thus Robb wouldn't either.

With Jeyne, it's quite a different matter. They end up in bed together because she's been taking care of him, he finds out about Winterfell and one thing leads to another and the only reason he marries her is for her honor. In the show, he's pissed off because Catelyn let Jaime go and thus has some comfort sex with Talisa.

You may say that "Yea, but Ned had a bastard", however, depending on whether L+R=J is true or not... Anyway...

That's a very valid point and I have no argument against it, as I agree it's a problem, but it's a show-Robb's characterization problem, not so much about Talisa. The entire Robb plot has greatly suffered, so this is yet another flaw.

If I were to design the plot and told "It has to be Talisa", I'd have kept the introduction of Talisa and all the same, but I'd have made it that they would fall in love like Robb did with Jeyne in the books, after being attended from a battle-wound. The problem is that there's no time to have Robb recovering from wounds, he has to move there and there (never outside his tent though...) to keep the plot advancing.

Maybe your problem with Talisa is not exactly Talisa, but Robb's portrayal having suffered due to lack of screentime?

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I'll never understand the people who say stuff like the way it happened in the book is more believable. I think some of the book readers need to accept that they take what happens in the book as cannon and then maybe subconsiously convince themselves that the book way is "more believable" when its not..

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Yes, that happens. However, due to the fact that Robb is Ned's son and Catelyn reflects in the books about how he has inherited his sense of duty and honor (a point which I think has come up during the show), him marrying Talisa is completely contrary to his character. Ned wouldn't forsake his vow, thus Robb wouldn't either.

With Jeyne, it's quite a different matter. They end up in bed together because she's been taking care of him, he finds out about Winterfell and one thing leads to another and the only reason he marries her is for her honor. In the show, he's pissed off because Catelyn let Jaime go and thus has some comfort sex with Talisa.

Ned would have married the Frey girl, because it is a much more honourable choice. Robb's choice in the book and the show is very dishonourable, even if it was a nice thing to do for Jeyne.

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Yes, that happens. However, due to the fact that Robb is Ned's son and Catelyn reflects in the books about how he has inherited his sense of duty and honor (a point which I think has come up during the show), him marrying Talisa is completely contrary to his character. Ned wouldn't forsake his vow, thus Robb wouldn't either.

With Jeyne, it's quite a different matter. They end up in bed together because she's been taking care of him, he finds out about Winterfell and one thing leads to another and the only reason he marries her is for her honor. In the show, he's pissed off because Catelyn let Jaime go and thus has some comfort sex with Talisa.

You may say that "Yea, but Ned had a bastard", however, depending on whether L+R=J is true or not... Anyway...

It was comfort sex in the books as well as the show, and married largely for love in the case of both Jeyne and Talisa. Robb dishonoured himself in both cases.

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Honestly, I fully supported their decision to make Robb's love interest a better character, or even just more of a love interest. Having a tragic romance was a good idea for him, but Talisa is just taking up too much screen time. We need more northerners around robb, and less of his wife, mom, and uncles. I really hope Talisa dies, personally, not because I hate her character but because it would make the RW more emotional.

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I'll never understand the people who say stuff like the way it happened in the book is more believable. I think some of the book readers need to accept that they take what happens in the book as cannon and then maybe subconsiously convince themselves that the book way is "more believable" when its not..

So basically a way to modern girl talking back to a king, of all people, and barging into tents is way more believable than the books? His decision to marry in both is not very smart, but at least book wise his reason for it is more 'honorable' and 'Stark like' in comparison.

If I were to design the plot and told "It has to be Talisa", I'd have kept the introduction of Talisa and all the same, but I'd have made it that they would fall in love like Robb did with Jeyne in the books, after being attended from a battle-wound. The problem is that there's no time to have Robb recovering from wounds, he has to move there and there (never outside his tent though...) to keep the plot advancing.

Why? A lot of people's gripe, from what I've heard and read, is the fact of her talking back so much which doesn't really fit in a setting such as this. It's way to modern. I agree making it more about love was a good option and yes I admit I hate how her character made Robb's arc and characterization suffer, but my problem with Talisa herself is the fact she's to modern thinking for a setting such as ASoIaF.

I won't go and say Jeyne is better than her, even if I do think it, but at least Jeyne fit within the context of the society which things are set in. Talisa acts like Dany and Breenie yet she has no power whatsoever to back it up, like they do, which just makes it even worse IMO.

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I find that many people are taking the first couple scenes Talisa had with Robb way back in S2 and hanging on to that characterization without really looking at what the character is now. How is she "modern"? She's dutiful, understanding, supportive and clearly cares for Robb. If you just pretend the scene where she gets short with him when chopping off the guy's leg didn't happen, then I don't really see what the complaints are.

In no way does she force herself on Robb or seduce him. He's the one smitten with her for whatever reason and pursues her fairly relentlessly after they first meet. I can't understand why anyone watching her this season would characterize her as a "bitch" or "annoying". She's been anything but. I find her to be a fairly sympathetic (if underdeveloped) character. I imagine that most people that aren't bringing their book "adaptation" baggage into watching the show would be genuinely sad to see her die.

And let's call a spade a spade. Jeyne Westerling in the books was a cipher with no personality who was barely allowed to talk or display any kind of personality. There is no way any reader should have developed any kind of attachment to her at all, considering that GRRM clearly didn't give a shit about her as a person since she her main purpose was to be a plot point.

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Haven't you ever heard of first impressions? Her first couple scenes where we meet her are what made me hate her to begin with. It's kind of hard to forget the vibe you get from someone after first being introduced to them. I wouldn't say she seduced Robb, and never have tried to say that, but she does in fact barge into his tent a couple times like she's allowed to do such things. This season? I agree she is a tiny bit less annoying, but still so because she takes up screen time that's better spent on Cat who's had hardly any, but I think it's a agree to disagree because the Lannister boys scene I thought she was a bitch. I know some people think she was being kind to them but I got the impression she was looking down on them. And tbh, I always got the impression she acted uppity since season two from the way she composed herself and the facial exp<b></b>ressions the actress chose to make. But I think I'll just chalk that up to the prejudice 'highborns are normally snobby'.

Personally I find it annoying such a minor character gets more screen time than a pov character. Talisa's ass probably had about as much screen time as Cat did this season.

ETA; I don't think a lot of tv only viewers like Talisa either. From what I've read on this site it seems people's Unsullied friends don't care for her or Robb and their more interested in others story lines. Say what you may about how intelligent Robb looks in marrying Jeyne but you can't tell me tv only viewers don't think he's an idiot for marrying Talisa. I'm sure some will be sad for her death but just from who I know the general impression I've gotten is a lot of people don't care for her. But.. I'm sure seeing someone die will still be sad no matter how much you hate the character. (With the exception of Joffrey.)

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Oh I think there will be plenty of people who will be upset about both Robb AND Talisa. I know some TV show only fans who really like both of them..... Will be interesting to see their reactions next week :stunned:

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I think I'll even be a little upset. I know Talisa isn't a book character, but it still felt like genuine ASOIAF to me. It felt right to the lore. Would I have wished that they stuck to the source material, of course. But now they didn't. The worst the now could do actually is let her live lol.

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I would be surprised if she did live, I think that it's likely her whole 'story' has been added to give an extra punch to the RW. Cause, y'know, it was too cheery beforehand lol

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Oh I'm sure people will be. I bet even people who dislike Talisa won't like seeing her possibly die some horrible death. I know I wouldn't want to see it even though I'd be happy never to see the annoying character again. I'll just be glad the butchering of Robb and Cat is finally almost over. The worst they could do now is somehow unrealistically have Talisa live. I think I'd be most upset if she lived since it kind of takes away from the RW if all these people manage to escape. (I just don't want BF to die lol.)

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I agree, I think Talisa should die also, not because I hate her, but I think it would just make the scene more powerful, ultimately. Also will make rewatching season 2 and 3 all the more heartbreaking.

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I agree, I think Talisa should die also, not because I hate her, but I think it would just make the scene more powerful, ultimately. Also will make rewatching season 2 and 3 all the more heartbreaking.

True. Well I don't want her to die just because I hate her. (Which I really do. She is the most modern character in the setting IMO. And it's annoying.) but also because I don't see her serving a further purpose. I would have liked Jeyne to be pregnant in the books or have some importance later on, but Talisa being at the RW kind of made me loose all hope of that and I don't see the point in the character living past the RW. Plus her dying while pregnant with Robb's heir will definitely add a bit more impact.

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True. Well I don't want her to die just because I hate her. (Which I really do. She is the most modern character in the setting IMO. And it's annoying.) but also because I don't see her serving a further purpose. I would have liked Jeyne to be pregnant in the books or have some importance later on, but Talisa being at the RW kind of made me loose all hope of that and I don't see the point in the character living past the RW. Plus her dying while pregnant with Robb's heir will definitely add a bit more impact.

Definately agree, though I didn't really hate her.

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