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Aarnikotka

[BOOK SPOILERS] Lady Talysa

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:agree:

I've never had a problem with them wanting to change the character. My problem with the change itself was a bad one. Sure I would have liked to see the Robb/Jeyne storyline actually fleshed out but that's not the reason I hate the change, just a tiny reason among bigger/better reasons why I dislike it. I don't even understand why she had to be so drastically different. If they didn't want the character as a daughter of a Lannister loyal bannermen couldn't they have chosen some small house in the, lets say, Riverlands instead of making her a foreigner which make the bannermen like Robb even less for choosing someone not even of Westeros. But yeah my problem is that the character is very poorly written as well as the arc for the two. They should obviously stick closer to the source material of the books because its clear that D&D aren't the best at writing their own arcs/characters in comparison to when they stick a bit truer to the books.

This.

I still don't understand WHY the change... As horrible and awful as Dany's S2 arc was, I see WHY they did it.. they wanted to give her character more to do because she didn't really do much in book 2 (except for the HotU, which they butchered too). This whole Jeyne/Talisa change does not make sense, and the only way I can make sense of it, is to jump aboard the bandwagon that Talisa is a spy. That is the only (slightly) logical explanation as to why they changed it. My brain needs something to grasp, and it's that theory.

Minus that.. well ok, let me clear this up first. Robb should have under NO circumstances betrayed his oath with the Freys. But I much liked his excuse in the books better with him being so distraught over his brothers' deaths, that he sleeps with Jeyne for comfort, therefore marrying her. Robb marries Talisa just because he is a lustful idiot on the show. Argh.

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This.

I still don't understand WHY the change... As horrible and awful as Dany's S2 arc was, I see WHY they did it.. they wanted to give her character more to do because she didn't really do much in book 2 (except for the HotU, which they butchered too). This whole Jeyne/Talisa change does not make sense, and the only way I can make sense of it, is to jump aboard the bandwagon that Talisa is a spy. That is the only (slightly) logical explanation as to why they changed it. My brain needs something to grasp, and it's that theory.

Minus that.. well ok, let me clear this up first. Robb should have under NO circumstances betrayed his oath with the Freys. But I much liked his excuse in the books better with him being so distraught over his brothers' deaths, that he sleeps with Jeyne for comfort, therefore marrying her. Robb marries Talisa just because he is a lustful idiot on the show. Argh.

I agree. I'd like for there to be an actual good reason for the change but I can't for the life of me figure why they had to write such a horrible character and arc for the two. I think if she's a spy it will only make it worse IMO. At least in the books it seemed Jeyne truly cared for Robb (if she was the one there when Jaime showed) but if Talisa is a spy then in my mind it never was a truly love story. It won't matter if she fell for him after she started spying. Why would she continue to write letters this late in season three if she did fall for him after being some secret spy?

I also agree that I preferred his reason in the books. I wouldn't have minded if they added love on top of the reason but because of the horrible writing it just makes Robb look like an uncaring douchebag who broke his promise because he could and not care about consequences.

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Jeyne had character? The only character of her's I remember is her mom. Talissa > Jeyne.

Um just because Talisa is more fleshed out doesn't make her better. She's a horribly written character.

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Jeyne had character? The only character of her's I remember is her mom. Talissa > Jeyne.

Yep. FAR better. She convinced Robb she would make a good QUEEN, not just a good lay.

Um just because Talisa is more fleshed out doesn't make her better. She's a horribly written character.

Nope.

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I hope she's not a spy, but the evidence suggests that she might be, or it might just be red herrings to throw us off.

But, spy or not, I think she be dead because in the show universe, from Robb's perspective, Bran and Rickon might be alive. By now in the books, they were officially dead and everyone knew it. In the show, they've been very clear that Cat and Robb just don't know what happened to them, and (away from Robb, of course) Theon has confessed they they're alive. I feel like D&D are making it very clear the viewers that Rob has alternate living heirs, so it's not that big of a deal if Talisa dies, preggers or not.

I think this also means that we won't get the will scene since I think it would be ridiculous to try to cram it all in there in one hour.

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I don't think she will be a spy. I heard the theories before and to show like these shocking moments we already have something similar happening with Shae, so we don't need one like it with Talissa.

And imo Jeyne is not a better character than Talissa, nor is she worse. They're just different. Since the circumstances were different they've given Rob a different love interest and it worked for both the book and the show imo.

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I don't think she will be a spy. I heard the theories before and to show like these shocking moments we already have something similar happening with Shae, so we don't need one like it with Talissa.

And imo Jeyne is not a better character than Talissa, nor is she worse. They're just different. Since the circumstances were different they've given Rob a different love interest and it worked for both the book and the show imo.

I pretty much agree with this. I just don't think it worked well for the show. Because the story arc and Talisa are horribly written. It achieved what it needed to, but it still wasn't written well, at all.

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It is taking it out of context to say that I said she yelled not in innocent and a slut to me just because I mentioned possible rape... The two are not the same thing. Mentioning rape doesn't mean that was what I thought she wasn't innocent and a slut about.

I never said Robb wasn't innocent but she didn't help matters any. And like I said when I wrote that it wasn't meant to come off that being raped equals slut. I definitely wouldn't say anything like that about any woman. Especially considering I am one. I just don't see how she can be a virgin. Even without the possibility that she was raped. I only mentioned rape because considering she's following battle camps there's the high possibility she could have been. So no I hadn't mentioned rape to imply that she was somehow a slut because of that happening. If it came off that way then yes it was lack of transition between the two thoughts in my post. Since people like to nit pick evey sentence ill just reiterate I do not think being raped would equal being a slut.

But in the context of the show even if she was somehow a virgin before Robb it's still slutty for a high born woman to go spreading her legs for guys she wasn't married to. IMO anyway.

Wow. The kind of comments you have made regarding women are boggling to me. You are a female and you call a fictional character a ‘slut’. I am not sure where to start here.

I have had pre marital sex. Am I therefore a ‘slut’ in your mind?

If I ‘put myself’ in a ‘ dangerous’ situation by being drunk and alone on my way home and then get raped, am I therefore in your view, partially to blame?

Are women who enjoy sex, sluts?

PS: Apologies to pretty much all of you who are on here to debate Talisa's fate for the distraction. I unfortunately felt that I had to respond to this.

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Wow. The kind of comments you have made regarding women are boggling to me. You are a female and you call a fictional character a ‘slut’. I am not sure where to start here.

I have had pre marital sex. Am I therefore a ‘slut’ in your mind?

If I ‘put myself’ in a ‘ dangerous’ situation by being drunk and alone on my way home and then get raped, am I therefore in your view, partially to blame?

Are women who enjoy sex, sluts?

PS: Apologies to pretty much all of you who are on here to debate Talisa's fate for the distraction. I unfortunately felt that I had to respond to this.

Um I said in the context of that universe she kind of is one. Obviously I wouldn't think that way in our modern times. I'm not an idiot. I don't see how you can use modern views for a world that isn't so modern thinking. It's ridiculous to me how people are taking things so out of context. Just because I used that word for a fictional character for a world that doesn't exist or have our kind of thinking does not mean I think that way in general or anything of the sort. So to sit there and accuse me of things is rather insulting. The fact your so hurt over me somewhat insulting a character that isn't real is laughable to me.

While I wouldn't say she is to blame if she had in fact gotten raped, but it is very stupid to go trapsing around battlefields. Especially since I'm sure she should/would have known how men are and the high possibility of what could have happened to her. Would she be to blame? I wouldn't say so. But is she stupid for putting herself in a position that could happen? Yes. (But again that's only in the context of that world. Obviously I wouldn't say that sort of thing for real life situations.)

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Wow, things got out of control around here and we were lucky to live through it.

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This whole Jeyne/Talisa change does not make sense, and the only way I can make sense of it, is to jump aboard the bandwagon that Talisa is a spy. That is the only (slightly) logical explanation as to why they changed it. My brain needs something to grasp, and it's that theory.

Agree!

I found a nice post from season 2 which details all the problems with this character. And it makes a lot more sense if she's a spy.

It's also important to note that she has been sabotaging the North's war effort since day 1. How many battles has Robb fought since then? That's right, none! He just moves around randomly and lays siege to empty castles.

There are so many inconsistencies with both characters that i do not understand those who try to say this is better story telling compared to the books.

One thing is to say that it still looks good and it still is good tv. No one will go against that I think. The show is still quite enjoyable. But please.....it kills me to see some people who say things like "this is better" or that GRRM was the one who made the mistake.

People....look at Robb from the show:

- Look at how he reacts to Theon when they are discussing if the north should go to war: does that look like someone who will take it well to be questioned? nope!

- Look at Robb when the great John questions his decisions: does that look like someone who will tolerate any complains or alternative plans? nope!

- Look at Robb when his mother tries to tell him she wants to go home and Theon should not be sent to the Iron islands. Does Robb seems to enjoy this? Does he take any advice from his mother? nope!

Now please tell us why the hell would someone like this enjoy a girl questioning him in an open field and close to some of his soldiers / lords???

And now we have the girl:

- First she is introduced as a nurse that roams around the batlefield and has some sort of issue against war and against Robb invading the Westerlands.....if she is foreign, what does she care about the westerlands? And if she is a foreign nurse, why does she take one side of the conflict over the other? Or are we to believe that she did the same complaints to Tywin or to Gregor Clegane? now that would have been fun!!!

- Next episode she is writting some letters all alone in Robb´s camp. Why is she staying with Robb´s army? On the previous episode it looked like she had just left and she did not want to work for the north so why is she with them now? Did they arrest her or keep her there against her will??? Did she decide to change sides in the meanwhile? Why? She did not seem like she wanted to change sides the first time we did meet her. And by the way, she is now quite a bit less sassy in general. And again, what is she doing all alone with the northern army? Who protects her? Who keeps her safe, gives her food and stops her from being rapped? Is it Robb? Why would he????

- Then we go another episode and now she has a position in which she can ask Robb for supplies??????? Is she now the main nurse and responsible for that kind of stuff????? Since when???? How did she get that kind of position? Is she such a good nurse that Robb decided to take her and make her like the army´s "maester"? Dont they have the silent sisters who should really be doing that kind of work? Can anyone explain why a military leader would pick a foreigner who clearly said she was playing for the other side and take this lady to lead your medical services for your army???? Why does she even trust her asking for provisions???? That could be really dangerous if she ends up being a turncoat and how does he know she isnt? Ahhh.....and it is still weird how she can be all alone and safe toying around a foreign army.....yeahhhh.

- And finally we have kind of confirmation that the girl seems to be really a foreigner and she is all sweet and bla bla bla she loves her brother and bla bla bla......well.....what is she doing so far away from her brother then??? And I dont buy it that she cant live on a slaver city...well, cant she complain about that to her brother and family thus trying to solve the slave problem there? How is she doing anything good for the slaves by running away to take care of SOLDIERS????? You would expect someone like her would be more like a village nurse and not a field army nurse......or she should be a slave nurse back home taking care of the slaves and doing her best to help them live better.

And now, just try and place this noble girl going all out on a foreign king which she gets to know is already engaged.....she even gets to know that the engagement is quite important. Besides, she is supposed to be against the very thing he represents which is a leader who is going to war over something she does not understand...or at least that was her mindset 3 episodes ago...i guess it doesnt matter anymore. You see....the only way for all of this to fit together is if she is just another spoiled brat that just does whatever she feels like on the spot without that much inner tought about it.

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Agree!

I found a nice post from season 2 which details all the problems with this character. And it makes a lot more sense if she's a spy.

Huh I hadn't read that post last year but it's nice to see all of the inconsistencies actually mentioned. Some I hadn't thought as in detail about as what was listed but I have to say I agree with all of that. Even though I hate the spy theory and will find it to only make the arc more cheesy, it's the only thing that could make even a little sense. But even if she's a spy, the question remains who went around protecting her (before she cozys up to Robb) and keeps her safe from harm and rape? So many plot holes.. I honestly don't see how people think she's a better character.. Yes Jeyne isn't deep or more fleshed out, but it doesn't seem there's nearly as many plot holes with her story as there is with Talisa. But then again we have a great writer, Martin, who wrote the books and D&D who make their own arc that just.. isn't.. good. So yeah obviously there would be less plot holes with Jeyne.

Thanks for posting that, people will probably just ignore it but at least posts like this are out there for people to see how bad the show arc was written. The Starks seem to get the shaft. Only Arya has a semi decent storyline.

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I agree, I think the problem is that D&D just aren't good writers. Okay so they needed to have Dany do more stuff in Qarth, so they could have made a dragon-napping plot that worked but they didn't. They had a totally implausible plot involving an assassination of all the important people in Qarth with no repercussions from their families, Pyat Pree being burnt by dragons when he could just have used an image of himself since he's such a badass wizard and then Xaro having no guards cause its not like the King of Qarth needs any protection or anything right?

Similarly I don't mind if they wanted to replace Jeyne with Talisa, they could have made a Talisa Maegyr from Volantis that worked and had half way credible motivations but this one doesn't, it's just implausible in every regard. That's why I'm rooting for the spy theory because atleast that makes a little bit of sense.

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I agree, I think the problem is that D&D just aren't good writers. Okay so they needed to have Dany do more stuff in Qarth, so they could have made a dragon-napping plot that worked but they didn't. They had a totally implausible plot involving an assassination of all the important people in Qarth with no repercussions from their families, Pyat Pree being burnt by dragons when he could just have used an image of himself since he's such a badass wizard and then Xaro having no guards cause its not like the King of Qarth needs any protection or anything right?

Similarly I don't mind if they wanted to replace Jeyne with Talisa, they could have made a Talisa Maegyr from Volantis that worked and had half way credible motivations but this one doesn't, it's just implausible in every regard. That's why I'm rooting for the spy theory because atleast that makes a little bit of sense.

I agree. While ill never understand why they had to drastically change the character and make her foreign, it wouldn't be so bad if the writing had been better and made more sense. But it wasn't and so here we have people who argue whether Jeyne, who's not been fleshed out much at all, or Talisa, who's more fleshed out but is horribly written with so many plot holes, is better. I also agree it would make a tiny bit more sense if she was a spy even if there's still a few inconsistent things. At this rate I won't hold my breath since it will still be cheesy IMO if she is a spy. Especially since they wanted a twu wuv story. I just hope she dies and isn't given some ridiculous f Arya swap or Stoneheart plot. It's better and more dramatic for her to die at the wedding with Robb. But then again I just don't care about her fate, at all, at this point. (Unless she steals Cat's storyline and screentime)

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I was thinking yes sh'es definitely a spy and then watching the Roose Change Youtube video solidified the theory for me.

Then my friend went on saying 'isn't Roose the spy?'.... Yes actually, yes.

But i just had another thought...

Roose only started losing faith in 'the cause' when Robb married Talisa.

GOD i'M CONFUSED. I DESPERATELY NEED TO KNOW. GET ME OUT OF MY MISERY.

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