[BOOK SPOILERS] On weddings

[FacelessSnow]

Ok...most of that makes sense except for the part about Margarey and QoT making Loras into KG. Why would they do that? He is the heir of Highgarden. And if they have so much sway over Joffrey then there is no need to put Loras in KG for him to protect Margarey.

To protect her from Tywin, not Joffrey. At this point Tywin is beginning to see that the Tyrells are becoming a nuisance. Loras is heir, but they havn't specifically said he's the only son, and us readers know he has brothers. They could simply write it off in dialogue "Loras's younger brother will be heir now." Tywin has nothing to gain by punishing the Tyrells through KG appointment, but Loras as a character does (no wife) and so do the Tyrells (can't force us he's KG now). Plus, why would Tywin want MORE Tyrells huddled around Joffrey makes no sense. It might not be a dangerous threat on Tywin's part but more of a remember whose in charge here kinda threat.

Most importantly, this gives an excuse to introduce the Martells. Tyrion can come in and say while you guys were off messing with the Tyrells, I securing another allegiance with Mycella (sticking it to Tywin about underestimating him) to help us balance power. The audience starts to learn about the relationship between the Martells, Tyrells, and Lannisters (prelude to season 4) and it gives them a reason to come to KL.

[The Mighty Conch]

To protect her from Tywin, not Joffrey. At this point Tywin is beginning to see that the Tyrells are becoming a nuisance. Loras is heir, but they havn't specifically said he's the only son, and us readers know he has brothers. They could simply write it off in dialogue "Loras's younger brother will be heir now." Tywin has nothing to gain by punishing the Tyrells through KG appointment, but Loras as a character does (no wife) and so do the Tyrells (can't force us he's KG now). Plus, why would Tywin want MORE Tyrells huddled around Joffrey makes no sense. It might not be a dangerous threat on Tywin's part but more of a remember whose in charge here kinda threat.

Most importantly, this gives an excuse to introduce the Martells. Tyrion can come in and say while you guys were off messing with the Tyrells, I securing another allegiance with Mycella (sticking it to Tywin about underestimating him) to help us balance power. The audience starts to learn about the relationship between the Martells, Tyrells, and Lannisters (prelude to season 4) and it gives them a reason to come to KL.

I don't feel like Tywin feels threatened by the Tyrells since he is foiling their plot to marry Sansa off and basically offering up Cersei as a token. If anything the Tyrells would put Loras in the KG to protect Margarey from Cersei, not Tywin. If you remember Tywin did not show a great amount of care when Cersei told him that Margarey was controlling Joffrey. He said something like "Well at least someone is doing it"....

Maybe Tywin thinks they are a nuisance but that doesn't really make it worth his while to kill the (soon to be) Queen.

Loras won't even be put in the KG next episode anyways. Or at least I am fairly sure he won't. Who knows, maybe he chooses to do so of his own free will.

[Q the Cat]

I don't feel like Tywin feels threatened by the Tyrells since he is foiling their plot to marry Sansa off and basically offering up Cersei as a token. If anything the Tyrells would put Loras in the KG to protect Margarey from Cersei, not Tywin. If you remember Tywin did not show a great amount of care when Cersei told him that Margarey was controlling Joffrey. He said something like "Well at least someone is doing it"....

Maybe Tywin thinks they are a nuisance but that doesn't really make it worth his while to kill the (soon to be) Queen.

Loras won't even be put in the KG next episode anyways. Or at least I am fairly sure he won't. Who knows, maybe he chooses to do so of his own free will.

Good points, Conch. However, I don't believe Loras can appoint himself to the KG, can he?

So, who whispers in Joff's ear to appoint Loras?

1.) Tywin?

2.) Margaery?

3.) Cersei?

We've all seen how show-Joff does not take orders and we've also seen how little he respects his mother. My bet is that Margaery will make the subtle suggestion that puts Loras on the KG. Her motive? Well, once she and LadyO learn that Sansa is to marry Tyrion they will realize their plans to gain the north/Winterfell by wedding Loras to Sansa are dashed. Now they believe the Lannisters will have the north/Winterfell.

Another question is, how will it benefit the Tyrells to bring Lannisters into Highgarden? They've already merged the families by having Margaery in KL. Wouldn't the Tyrell's want to 'diversify' and have Loras marry into another family? Also, if Loras doesn't marry, wouldn't Margaery's heirs inherit Highgarden?

[Jon Black]

I've always had a feeling that the RW will be put off until S$...until last week. The name "Stark" carries so much weight on the TV show (and beyond) but I am pretty sure its coming in E9.

Still very interested in how they will split up this magnificent book and its events.

[Conchobar]

I've always had a feeling that the RW will be put off until S$...

Season Dollar?? is that before or after Season 4?

[The Mighty Conch]

Good points, Conch. However, I don't believe Loras can appoint himself to the KG, can he?

So, who whispers in Joff's ear to appoint Loras?

1.) Tywin?

2.) Margaery?

3.) Cersei?

We've all seen how show-Joff does not take orders and we've also seen how little he respects his mother. My bet is that Margaery will make the subtle suggestion that puts Loras on the KG. Her motive? Well, once she and LadyO learn that Sansa is to marry Tyrion they will realize their plans to gain the north/Winterfell by wedding Loras to Sansa are dashed. Now they believe the Lannisters will have the north/Winterfell.

Another question is, how will it benefit the Tyrells to bring Lannisters into Highgarden? They've already merged the families by having Margaery in KL. Wouldn't the Tyrell's want to 'diversify' and have Loras marry into another family? Also, if Loras doesn't marry, wouldn't Margaery's heirs inherit Highgarden?

I don't think Margarey's heir would inherit unless the show has deviated from the book in that Loras and Margarey have NO siblings. Not even younger ones. It has been proposed on this site that they could just make Willas a younger sibling with just a couple lines of dialogue in the show.

Unless some cousin of theirs tries to claim it and there are no younger siblings I think you are right that Margarey's heirs will be the ones to inherit it.

You are right that Loras can't appoint himself. Which makes sense. And Margarey by far is the most influential person in Joffrey's ear but, maybe after the Tyrells figure out their plans have been ruined by the Lannisters and Loras takes it upon himself to go before the King and simply ask if he may be put into the KG. It is well known he is a good fighter, and a better knight than most of the KG currently. I think my theory makes the most sense if they make it aware in the show that Loras and margarey have a younger sibling which would mean Loras wouldn't be throwing his family into chaos by becoming a KG.

I don't know. I just have a feeling that whatever happens that the QoT will not be the one to want Loras in the KG. But you guys make some good points.

[King Tommen]

I don't think Margarey's heir would inherit unless the show has deviated from the book in that Loras and Margarey have NO siblings. Not even younger ones. It has been proposed on this site that they could just make Willas a younger sibling with just a couple lines of dialogue in the show.

Unless some cousin of theirs tries to claim it and there are no younger siblings I think you are right that Margarey's heirs will be the ones to inherit it.

You are right that Loras can't appoint himself. Which makes sense. And Margarey by far is the most influential person in Joffrey's ear but, maybe after the Tyrells figure out their plans have been ruined by the Lannisters and Loras takes it upon himself to go before the King and simply ask if he may be put into the KG. It is well known he is a good fighter, and a better knight than most of the KG currently. I think my theory makes the most sense if they make it aware in the show that Loras and margarey have a younger sibling which would mean Loras wouldn't be throwing his family into chaos by becoming a KG.

I don't know. I just have a feeling that whatever happens that the QoT will not be the one to want Loras in the KG. But you guys make some good points.

Cogman said in his interview with Elio on this site that they've left themselves an out on the show to introduce a younger Tyrell sibling if they want to at a later date to be an heir but it's unclear which direction they'll go in at this point. It's the same thing they did with Shireen in S2. They had Melisandre say that Stannis' wife had not produced any "heirs, only stillborns" which allowed them to introduce Shireen later if they wanted to but it wouldn't seem strange if they didn't.

[drstrangelove]

Good points, Conch. However, I don't believe Loras can appoint himself to the KG, can he?

So, who whispers in Joff's ear to appoint Loras?

1.) Tywin?

2.) Margaery?

3.) Cersei?

We've all seen how show-Joff does not take orders and we've also seen how little he respects his mother. My bet is that Margaery will make the subtle suggestion that puts Loras on the KG. Her motive? Well, once she and LadyO learn that Sansa is to marry Tyrion they will realize their plans to gain the north/Winterfell by wedding Loras to Sansa are dashed. Now they believe the Lannisters will have the north/Winterfell.

Another question is, how will it benefit the Tyrells to bring Lannisters into Highgarden? They've already merged the families by having Margaery in KL. Wouldn't the Tyrell's want to 'diversify' and have Loras marry into another family? Also, if Loras doesn't marry, wouldn't Margaery's heirs inherit Highgarden?

end of season two Joffrey accepts loras petition to join the kingsguard same sequence as joffrey accepts Margaerys hand.

[Kernest]

end of season two Joffrey accepts loras petition to join the kingsguard same sequence as joffrey accepts Margaerys hand.

No he does not, re-watch it.

[The Mighty Conch]

end of season two Joffrey accepts loras petition to join the kingsguard same sequence as joffrey accepts Margaerys hand.

In this clip he mentions nothing about himself becoming KG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D12yco2TUc

[drstrangelove]

My apologies. Just rewatched. Definitely thought that occurred.

[Kernest]

My apologies. Just rewatched. Definitely thought that occurred.

It does occur in the books ,which is why this is a somewhat common misconception. The detail of Loras becoming KG at that point was rather insignificant, but since they've decided to make Loras the only or at least the oldest Tyrell son and use him to marry Sansa instead of Willas, it's suddenly very important.

[The Mighty Conch]

It does occur in the books ,which is why this is a somewhat common misconception. The detail of Loras becoming KG at that point was rather insignificant, but since they've decided to make Loras the only or at least the oldest Tyrell son and use him to marry Sansa instead of Willas, it's suddenly very important.

Which makes for wonderful thoughts and predictions on exactly how it will play out. I am pretty sure the consensus is that the Sansa-Tyrion wedding will not occur next episode, so I think that Loras being put into the KG will happen either same episode as wedding or later.

Or...maybe it will be at the very end of this episode which leads the viewer into realizing that Sansa will most definitely be marrying Tyrion.

[Lord Martin]

I think we'll get weddings back to back to back.

Tyrions and Sansa in 8, RW in 9, PW in 10.

Here's my reasoning:

The royal wedding has been the focus of the entire KL plot line. It would be really poor form not to have it for that very reason.

Episode 10 is called Mhysa, clearly that's a reference to Dany. But most show titles have multiple meanings. Given that Joff reaches out for Cersei and her terrible reaction to his death... I think thats the double meaning.

After the RW, most TV show fans will be howling like they did after Ned got it. I think D&D know that they have to give the audience some sort of olive branch, some sign that evil people can die too. The PW does just that.

As a practical matter, what about Jack Gleeson? Is he going to come back for a 4th season just to do 1 or 2 episodes then die? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Lastly, we don't need Mace Tyrell or the Red Viper for the Wedding. We need them for Tyrion's trial. My suspicion is that the season ends with Cersei accusing Tyrion and him being seized.

Season 4 will introduce the Martells and Mace. We'll meet them in eps 1-3 while Tyrion is awaiting trial. Then mid season will be the farcical trial as witness after witness lies about what they saw including shae. Episode 7 or 8 will be the Red Viper vs. the Mountain and Tyrion will be freed at the very end.

This also helps out w/ Sansa's story line. She doesn't have to flee KL until the start of Season 4, which will start the night Joff dies.

[The Mighty Conch]

I think we'll get weddings back to back to back.

Tyrions and Sansa in 8, RW in 9, PW in 10.

Here's my reasoning:

The royal wedding has been the focus of the entire KL plot line. It would be really poor form not to have it for that very reason.

Episode 10 is called Mhysa, clearly that's a reference to Dany. But most show titles have multiple meanings. Given that Joff reaches out for Cersei and her terrible reaction to his death... I think thats the double meaning.

After the RW, most TV show fans will be howling like they did after Ned got it. I think D&D know that they have to give the audience some sort of olive branch, some sign that evil people can die too. The PW does just that.

As a practical matter, what about Jack Gleeson? Is he going to come back for a 4th season just to do 1 or 2 episodes then die? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Lastly, we don't need Mace Tyrell or the Red Viper for the Wedding. We need them for Tyrion's trial. My suspicion is that the season ends with Cersei accusing Tyrion and him being seized.

Season 4 will introduce the Martells and Mace. We'll meet them in eps 1-3 while Tyrion is awaiting trial. Then mid season will be the farcical trial as witness after witness lies about what they saw including shae. Episode 7 or 8 will be the Red Viper vs. the Mountain and Tyrion will be freed at the very end.

This also helps out w/ Sansa's story line. She doesn't have to flee KL until the start of Season 4, which will start the night Joff dies.

I really can't find any reason to not believe your thoughts. Except that weddings back to back to back seems....ruushed? maybe not ideal. Of course just because it is a wedding doesn't mean they have to spend an unreasonable amount of time on the ceremony.

The RW is the one that will/should take up the most time. Or at least the events during/after. Of course the PW is very important but I dont think it needs its own episode which is why I like your double meaning for Mhysa.

The last few episodes should be epic of this season if that is how it goes down.

I do like that you threw in the Shae betrayal so that the TV audience understands the reason for... future events.

[teemo]

They could just use Bronn. Would be more emotional, and negates the need to cast another actor.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:crying:

[Belacel]

I really can't find any reason to not believe your thoughts. Except that weddings back to back to back seems....ruushed? maybe not ideal. Of course just because it is a wedding doesn't mean they have to spend an unreasonable amount of time on the ceremony.

The RW is the one that will/should take up the most time. Or at least the events during/after. Of course the PW is very important but I dont think it needs its own episode which is why I like your double meaning for Mhysa.

The last few episodes should be epic of this season if that is how it goes down.

I do like that you threw in the Shae betrayal so that the TV audience understands the reason for... future events.

I like it. And it would fit also with the title of episode 7 second sons

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Yeah the reason why I like the PW as cliff hanger in E10 idea is that without it the King's Landing plot arc in this season has no real "arc" to it.

We know how the Robb/Catelyn arc is in season 3, culminating in E9, we know how Dany's Arc goes, culminating in Yunkai and her first real military victory (Astapor was through treachery, not a real military campaign). Arya's arc ends with her on the run with the Hound with no family to return to. Jon's arc ends with him back to the NW, and Bran's arc probably ends with meeting with Coldhands.

But what does the KL arc go without the PW. After Tyrion's wedding, LF goes to the Vale, and, what exactly? Seems like other than getting a reaction shot of people there to the RW, there is nothing happening in KL, just a bunch of dangling threads.

The PW brings all the threads to a proper climax.

[King Tommen]

In terms of there not being a proper "arc" to King's Landing without the PW, that's arguable. But even if that's the case, you're splitting up a book, sometimes you aren't going to get perfect endings to every mini-story if you do so. I think you can definitely leave a "to be continued" type feel to King's Landing, especially when the focus of E10 is going to be on a lot of the other stories.

If you put the PW in E10, it's going to be extremely rushed. I'm not sure why people are wanting that to be the case. They've split ASoS into 2 seasons so they can let the big events breathe on their own. Why would you undermine that by cramming in a major event just so you can say "good, the PW arc for this season got closed off..., we did it, high five."

[Belacel]

Yeah the reason why I like the PW as cliff hanger in E10 idea is that without it the King's Landing plot arc in this season has no real "arc" to it.

We know how the Robb/Catelyn arc is in season 3, culminating in E9, we know how Dany's Arc goes, culminating in Yunkai and her first real military victory (Astapor was through treachery, not a real military campaign). Arya's arc ends with her on the run with the Hound with no family to return to. Jon's arc ends with him back to the NW, and Bran's arc probably ends with meeting with Coldhands.

But what does the KL arc go without the PW. After Tyrion's wedding, LF goes to the Vale, and, what exactly? Seems like other than getting a reaction shot of people there to the RW, there is nothing happening in KL, just a bunch of dangling threads.

The PW brings all the threads to a proper climax.

And E10 Mysha features the fate of three mothers: Dany, Cat, Cersei